Romans 5:18 and the BRI

[Robert]

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https://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/materials/bible-nt-texts/romans-518

 

[Robert]

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BRI:  First, a literal translation of the Greek text: "So then as through one trespass to [eis] all men to[eis] condemnation, so also through one act of righteousness to [eis] all men to [eis] righteousness of life." The phrases "through one trespass" and "through one act of righteousness" could be respectively rendered "the trespass of the one [Adam]," "the righteous act of one [Christ]." There is no verb, because Paul feels that the context is clarification enough.

Well, "could be...rendered" is Rodriquez opinion. 

"The original NASB has earned the reputation of being the most accurate English Bible translation. The NASB update carries on the NASB tradition of being a true Bible translation, revealing what the original manuscripts actually say--not merely what the translator believes they mean." [see https://www.biblegateway.com/versions/New-American-Standard-Bible-NASB/ ]

Given this, let's look at Romans 5:18 

"So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men," NASB

 

[Robert]

8 minutes ago, Robert said:

 Fourth, the context suggests that the result of Adam's trespass actually affected the whole human race, resulting in their condemnation, but that Christ's righteous act was intended for all humans but not automatic. Only "those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man" (verse 17). Justification is intended for all human beings, but only those who accept it will benefit from it.

This whole statement is disgraceful.  The text is clear:  Just as all men stood condemned in Adam the moment he transgressed "all men" were justified unto eternal life in Christ the moment He died.

Justification before God's law has taken place in our corporate humanity therefore it is ours by birth.  Paul doesn't use the word "intended".  Rodrquez is teaching nothing short of Arminianism. 

 

[LifeHiscost]

On 2/2/2016 at 11:24 AM, Robert said:

This whole statement is disgraceful.  The text is clear:  Just as all men stood condemned in Adam the moment he transgressed "all men" were justified unto eternal life in Christ the moment He died.

Justification before God's law has taken place in our corporate humanity therefore it is ours by birth.  Paul doesn't use the word "intended".  Rodrquez is teaching nothing short of Arminianism. 

 

I'm satisfied with the reality of what you're saying and am willing to admit that to all who accept the work that Jesus must do in the individual's life, they will receive everlasting life. That would

merely reveal a continuation of the gospel from the beginning of the fall, to be received as a gift, not forced on any including those who refuse to repent.

2 Speak to the Israelites, that they take for Me an offering. From every man who gives it willingly and ungrudgingly with his heart you shall take My offering...Exodus 25

 

19 But God said, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son indeed, and you shall call his name Isaac [laughter]; and I will establish My covenant or solemn pledge with him for an everlasting covenant and with his posterity after him....Genesis 17

 

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.....Galatians 3

 

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.....John 15

 

Man can no more stay in the body of Christ without a work of spiritual reformation than Lucifer could stay in Heaven.....Matthew 7

'You must be born again.'....John 3

God is Love!~Jesus saves!  

[8thdaypriest]

On 2/2/2016 at 1:14 PM, Robert said:

"So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men," NASB

 

If every person was "justified" when Christ died, with every sin (committed in the past) "forgiven" - then how could ANY from the Old Testament period be LOST???  But we know that many will be LOST.  They will "not enter His rest".  They sinned knowingly, and rebelliously, without remorse or repentance.  These people do NOT stand "justified" before God, in the Books of Heaven.  They do NOT stand forgiven. 

Christ's death does NOT COVER known, rebellious, sin and unrepentant sinners.  The Old Testament is full of stories describing such persons.  King Saul, for instance - will NOT stand justified before God. 

I do believe that Christ's death covered all "unknown" sin.  Those who sin ignorantly - are covered, until such time that they come to HEAR the Law of God, and the Gospel of Christ. 

I do believe that Christ's death has "justified" all of those who brought "sin offerings" with humble, contrite, repentant hearts. These were "justified by faith". 

Christ's death resulted in "justification of life FOR all men".  Justification became available - NOT a done deal for every man who ever existed. 

 

 

[Robert]

4 hours ago, Kdogae86 said:

For a sin to be truly forgiven and atoned for repentance is necessary.

That makes repentance meritorious. 

[8thdaypriest]

23 hours ago, Robert said:

That makes repentance meritorious. 

Only IF the person has repented SIMPLY to OBTAIN the Kingdom Blessings. 

If the person has repented BECAUSE they came to understand that their sin has wounded the heart of God, and they are truly SORRY that they wounded Him, then the relationship is restored.

The Hebrew word translated "atonement" also means "reconciliation".  It's the reconciliation (of heart) that makes the difference.

 

[8thdaypriest]

18 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Only IF the person has repented SIMPLY to OBTAIN the Kingdom Blessings. 

If the person has repented BECAUSE they came to understand that their sin has wounded the heart of God, and they are truly SORRY that they wounded Him, then the relationship is restored.

The Hebrew word translated "atonement" also means "reconciliation".  It's the reconciliation (of heart) that makes the difference.

 

Psalm 51:17 "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise."

[Robert]

On 2/11/2016 at 8:43 PM, Kdogae86 said:

2 questions Robert. Do you believe the bible to be true and do you believe every single person who ever lived will be saved?

Yes and no

[Robert]

On 2/11/2016 at 5:22 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

Only IF the person has repented SIMPLY to OBTAIN the Kingdom Blessings. 

If the person has repented BECAUSE they came to understand that their sin has wounded the heart of God, and they are truly SORRY that they wounded Him, then the relationship is restored.

The Hebrew word translated "atonement" also means "reconciliation".  It's the reconciliation (of heart) that makes the difference.

 

Romans 5:8,10

[Robert]

On 2/11/2016 at 0:31 AM, Kdogae86 said:

No, they are our sins and will condemn us to hell. We cannot atone for our own sins. All we can do is allow God to take our sins away from us. Repentance is a component of belief and turning away from sin and regeneration. 

So you are teaching perfectionism?

[Robert]

22 minutes ago, Kdogae86 said:

Your argument leads to all being saved through the headship of Christ but we know this to be biblically untrue. 

All humanity was saved (past tense) in the doing and dying of Christ.  One must be Biblical illiterate not to realize this truth. The reason some are lost is because they knowingly reject this truth.

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If Christ died for every single person and every single sin then what limits atonement?

Christ didn't die...humanity died in Him.  The law has been satisfied.

[Robert]

34 minutes ago, Kdogae86 said:

⁹ If we confess our sins, he who is faithful and just will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 

--Notice the conditional statement "If". If we do NOT confess then we are not be cleansed. Our robes will be stained. Yes I do believe in perfection. Not mine but Christ's. But certain conditions must be met in order to remain perfect in Christ.

Who is the "we"?  Believers, right?  Believers have accepted their position "in Christ".  Confession of sin did not save us...Christ saved us in Himself.  We confess because as believers we admit we are bankrupt of the righteousness the law demands.  This allow Christ to present us perfect in Himself.

[Robert]

37 minutes ago, Kdogae86 said:

Yes I do believe in perfection. Not mine but Christ's. 

Imputed or imparted?  If imparted then as long as life shall last there will be no point that you can state you have arrived at perfection. That, BTW, is a paraphrase of Ellen White.  

[phkrause]

2 hours ago, Kdogae86 said:

So your disagreement with the BRI article is maybe a very small symantic?

Exactly!! I will take Dr Angel Rodriquez' opinion any day!

[Robert]

4 hours ago, Kdogae86 said:

Only partially true. Belief doesn't save us either but without belief, which leads to confession, a man won't be saved even though grace is not in those very components.

Show me where, for example, the thief on the cross confessed...

[Robert]

4 hours ago, Kdogae86 said:

One thing I needed to add. My context of perfection whether imparted or imputed should've been obvious from what I wrote. "...perfection, not mine but Christ's."

Both the imputed and imparted is from Christ.  

[Robert]

3 hours ago, Kdogae86 said:

2 things, is rejecting Christ a sin and isn't it sin that separates us from God?

It's the sin of unbelief...the unpardonable sin.

We have been reconciled in Christ even though in ourselves we are sinners.

[Robert]

1 hour ago, phkrause said:

Exactly!! I will take Dr Angel Rodriquez' opinion any day!

Okay....

[Robert]

3 hours ago, Kdogae86 said:

Faith being the condition for Grace. 

No, you've got it backwards.

Eph 2:4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 

God's grace "in Christ" saved us.  Nothing is mentioned here of faith.  Faith comes later or else you make "faith" the savior, which is making "faith" meritorious.

[phkrause]

6 minutes ago, Robert said:

Show me where, for example, the thief on the cross confessed...

He acknowledged Jesus on the cross, when he asked Jesus to remember him. This might be to simplistic for you, but to me he's saying to Jesus, I know who you are and what you can do for me a sinner. Personally I don't think he needed to ask for forgiveness, it was pretty much understood by Jesus what he was saying/asking for!

[Robert]

13 hours ago, phkrause said:

He acknowledged Jesus on the cross, when he asked Jesus to remember him. This might be to simplistic for you, but to me he's saying to Jesus, I know who you are and what you can do for me a sinner. Personally I don't think he needed to ask for forgiveness, it was pretty much understood by Jesus what he was saying/asking for!

That's pure speculation.

Here's another one:

John 8:3-11

The woman caught in adultery is a classic.  The Pharisees insisted she die according to the law, but Christ reversed her condemnation and thus acquitted  her.  

Now, please show me where she had to first repent before Christ justified her! In fact please show me where she even repented!!!

Here's the context:

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John 8:3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” 11 “No one, sir,” she said. “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”

 

[Robert]

13 hours ago, Kdogae86 said:

I get a sense your at least a 4 point Calvinist?

Calvinist believe in limited atonement.  God predestines some to be saved and some to be lost.   It's unbiblical. 

[Robert]

2 hours ago, Kdogae86 said:

No where did the scripture say she believed or was saved at all. To say she is saved is a big assumption. I'm not saying she wasn't but the text just doesn't go into details of her conversion.

The point is that Jesus didn't condemn her.  Jesus is the author of the law.  It's His law and according to the law if you sin you die.

Why would Jesus bypass His own law - because she confessed?  No!  Because in His doing & dying He has legally saved all men from under law to under grace.

Notice also that Jesus said, "go now and leave your life of sin". He was primarily speaking of adultery. What did He mean?  Repentance requires a change of mind.  Instead of loving what our natures love we are, through conversion, to hate sin.  That's repentance.  

Now, look at the order of things:

First Christ acquitted her of sin and delivered her the good news of no condemnation.

Only then, secondly, did He tell her she need to have a change of mind.

The good news is that "in Christ" the sinner has been saved from under the law that condemns.  The sinner has been redeemed.

Then, and only then, does the sinner repent.  It is the goodness of God that leads us to repentance. 

 

 

[Robert]

2 hours ago, Kdogae86 said:

But you know total depravity came from Calvin and Augustine, right?

Yes...

Now, what did totally depravity mean to these fellows?