Racism in the Adventist Church

[ChristianIam]

Someone started a discussion at BlackVoices.com

examining racism in the Adventist church.

Is racism a problem? Is it a problem that whites have only been the presidents of this Church? The thread is at:

http://blackcommunity.blackvoices.aol.co...webtag=ti-faith

Is the structure of the church racist? Are some of the members racist?

[Gerr]

Of course, there is racism in the SDAC! Are all SDAs truly converted? Do all truly converted SDAs understand the truth about God's impartial love?

Are Blacks or any other non-white groups free from racism? What was it that the New Orlean's mayor recently said? Had it been said by a white person, he/she would have been roasted from every corner of the country.

BTW, I'm not white. I'm brown.

Gerry

[Taylor]

There has never been a non-white USA president either. Not sure racism is confined to any one place.

[Kountzer]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Of course, there is racism in the SDAC! Are all SDAs truly converted? Do all truly converted SDAs understand the truth about God's impartial love?

Are Blacks or any other non-white groups free from racism? What was it that the New Orlean's mayor recently said? Had it been said by a white person, he/she would have been roasted from every corner of the country.

BTW, I'm not white. I'm brown.

Gerry

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Nagin has been roasted, figuratively, from every corner of the country. Read the newspaper. As for racism in the SDAC. It probably exists. I choose not to pay attention, most of the time, but it probably exists. Until the church militant becomes the church glorified, or, as long as us finite humans are a factor, there will be problems, of one sort or another. Racism, classism, sexism, you name it.

Speaking of racial issues, I heard that during the post hurricane evacaution phase of the NO tragedy, that the people of NO, mostly blacks, tried to walk their way out of the ravaged. They had only one passable road to escape on. They tried to pass into some of the neighboring, affluent, and mostly middle class white suburban areas, and were met by police men with sub machine guns, and forced to turn back. If this story is true, where is all the righteous indignation concerning this?? I mean, NO mayor Nagin makes some stupid remarks about NO becoming a chocolate city again, and a lot of folks are up in arms. BTW, I wouldn't worry about Nagin too much. He has shot himself in the foot too many times. He doesn't have much clout right now.

As for the city of NO itself, I don't see what all the fuss is all about. I spent the summer there once while I was enlisted in the Coast Guard. The place is too low and below sea level. I am not all that crazy about the mardi gras. There is something about going to an all out street debacle where there are drunken women showing it all, and Southern redneck police patrolling around with billy clubs, ready to pounce on innocent and sober retired school teachers, that doesn't appeal to me. I don't like hurricanes (the kind you drink) and gumbo is full of shell fish and other disgusting stuff you shouldn't eat. Whoever wants to repopulate NO can have it.

DB

[Dr. Shane]

I have seen a different kind of racism in the Adventist church. It isn't the KKK variety of "let's get rid of them". It is the "Oh, have pity and the stupid, ignorant, poor minority." I have seen white Adventists go out of their way to help minorities but with an attitude that it is their Christian duty because the minority is too ignorant or stupid to be able to get a good paying job and not be in need of assistance.

[Nan]

As a general comment - I have seen more racism between people of different shades of nonwhite in the church, than I have seen of white/non white racism. In another division, not the SPD. As long as time lasts, somewhere racism will be alive and well in the church - with the other sins.

[David_McQueen]

I dont know if I have experienced racism, that is the inherent and ignorant belief that one's race is superior to another.

What I have witnessed though is prejudice of the highest order! Whilst I can understand various racial and cultural groups have preferred styles of worship, it is when it becomes exclusive to others that I have issue. Surely people can't expect to have some sudden change of heart when they reach heaven!

[Doug]

I consider the act of people seperating themselves into "black" churches are making racism even worse. I heard a quote from Morgan Freeman, I can't remember it exactly but it boiled down to "If you want to get rid of racism, you need to stop refering to peoples race" it should be either you are american or a foreigner

[Kountzer]

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cubensis said:

I consider the act of people seperating themselves into "black" churches are making racism even worse. I heard a quote from Morgan Freeman, I can't remember it exactly but it boiled down to "If you want to get rid of racism, you need to stop refering to peoples race" it should be either you are american or a foreigner

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The region conference construct works for me. Anyone can join, feel free to drop in.

DB

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: "'If you want to get rid of racism, you need to stop refering to peoples race' it should be either you are american or a foreigner."

People who actively work in the area of race relations will recognize that there are many who will consider the above statement to be racist.

Let me quote another view on this subject:

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"Nihilism is the denial of existence or absence of meaning. Harvard professkor Cornell West calls nihilism 'the greatest threat to the African American community today.' . . ."

"Does a diluted version of African American culture diminish us as a distinct people group? Can African Americans impact the world without 'blending' with other cultures to the point of semi-assimilation? If not, nihilism could be argued as a necessary evil."

"Yes, nihilism is evil, but no it's not necesary. Yet it does exist in reace relations. Evidence of this is when we hear well-meaning friends of other ethnic groups exclaim: 'I don't see color, I just see a person.' Such a statement even when innocent, reflects nihilism. It denies a reality that should be obvious: African Americans are people of color. By and large we are proud of our shades of brown. And why not? That is how God made us. And if people don't see brown, then what do they see? Or if people don't see color, why mention it? We cannot deny that color is a component of one's identity without succumbing to nihilism."

" . . . When African americans are lumped together into a monolithic group. . . nihilism prevails. African Americans, like all people groups, are diverse in all aspects of life. Stereotyping, by denying this, is unfailingly pernicious no matter what the motivation is. Even the desire for unity cannot be allowed to promote uniformity, thus reinforcing nihilism."

From: Charles W. Drake III (Vice-President for Administration, Mid-american Union) "Lest We Forget," OUTLOOK, February, 2006, page 4.

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Folks, I am not picking on the person who made the statement that I quoted at the beginning of this post, but, I can assure you that there are those who would consider it as being made by a person who does not understand racial issues, and that it therefore carries the baggage of racism, even though the person does not understand it's implications.

Why is this so? In brief: When such a statement is made, it is typically made in the United States of America. The USA is a country in which there is typically a majority ethnic group which is other than African American. Therefore, such statements are seen as a denial of African Americans as a group, or people, with a denial of all that their culture brings to America, and an implied attempt to meld African Americans into the dominant culture.

The current thinking of those who work in race relations might be compare the American society to a fruit salad. The mangos remain a distinct part of that salad which contibutes to the overall taste as does the apples, oranges, rasins, and other parts of that salad. Each contributes, but each remqains a seperate part of that salad. There is no grinding up in a food-blender in a manner that destroys the individual parts. African Americans often feel destroyed as individuals when such statements are made.

[Kountzer]

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Gregory Matthews said:

Re: "'If you want to get rid of racism, you need to stop refering to peoples race' it should be either you are american or a foreigner."

People who actively work in the area of race relations will recognize that there are many who will consider the above statement to be racist.

Let me quote another view on this subject:

*************************************************************************************************

"Nihilism is the denial of existence or absence of meaning. Harvard professkor Cornell West calls nihilism 'the greatest threat to the African American community today.' . . ."

"Does a diluted version of African American culture diminish us as a distinct people group? Can African Americans impact the world without 'blending' with other cultures to the point of semi-assimilation? If not, nihilism could be argued as a necessary evil."

"Yes, nihilism is evil, but no it's not necesary. Yet it does exist in reace relations. Evidence of this is when we hear well-meaning friends of other ethnic groups exclaim: 'I don't see color, I just see a person.' Such a statement even when innocent, reflects nihilism. It denies a reality that should be obvious: African Americans are people of color. By and large we are proud of our shades of brown. And why not? That is how God made us. And if people don't see brown, then what do they see? Or if people don't see color, why mention it? We cannot deny that color is a component of one's identity without succumbing to nihilism."

" . . . When African americans are lumped together into a monolithic group. . . nihilism prevails. African Americans, like all people groups, are diverse in all aspects of life. Stereotyping, by denying this, is unfailingly pernicious no matter what the motivation is. Even the desire for unity cannot be allowed to promote uniformity, thus reinforcing nihilism."

From: Charles W. Drake III (Vice-President for Administration, Mid-american Union) "Lest We Forget," OUTLOOK, February, 2006, page 4.

***************************************************************************************

Folks, I am not picking on the person who made the statement that I quoted at the beginning of this post, but, I can assure you that there are those who would consider it as being made by a person who does not understand racial issues, and that it therefore carries the baggage of racism, even though the person does not understand it's implications.

Why is this so? In brief: When such a statement is made, it is typically made in the United States of America. The USA is a country in which there is typically a majority ethnic group which is other than African American. Therefore, such statements are seen as a denial of African Americans as a group, or people, with a denial of all that their culture brings to America, and an implied attempt to meld African Americans into the dominant culture.

The current thinking of those who work in race relations might be compare the American society to a fruit salad. The mangos remain a distinct part of that salad which contibutes to the overall taste as does the apples, oranges, rasins, and other parts of that salad. Each contributes, but each remqains a seperate part of that salad. There is no grinding up in a food-blender in a manner that destroys the individual parts. African Americans often feel destroyed as individuals when such statements are made.

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Good research, good post. Thanks,

DB

[Gerr]

Folks, variety is the spice of life. I sometimes kid my patients about whites spending time on the beach or tanning booths trying to be darker, lipstick beyong the lips to make them look bigger, or curling their straight hair, and dark people trying to get whiter, and those with kinky/curly hair trying to get them straighter!

I prefer mangoes to many other fruits, but that's a matter of preference, not mango superiority. Soooo, Vive la difference!!!

Gerry

[Gerr]

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D_Bishop said:

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cubensis said:

I consider the act of people seperating themselves into "black" churches are making racism even worse. I heard a quote from Morgan Freeman, I can't remember it exactly but it boiled down to "If you want to get rid of racism, you need to stop refering to peoples race" it should be either you are american or a foreigner

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The region conference construct works for me. Anyone can join, feel free to drop in.

DB

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[:"blue"]Why? Is it because it gives you the opportunity to take first place? [/]

Gerry

[Kountzer]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

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D_Bishop said:

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cubensis said:

I consider the act of people seperating themselves into "black" churches are making racism even worse. I heard a quote from Morgan Freeman, I can't remember it exactly but it boiled down to "If you want to get rid of racism, you need to stop refering to peoples race" it should be either you are american or a foreigner

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The region conference construct works for me. Anyone can join, feel free to drop in.

DB

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[:"blue"]Why? Is it because it gives you the opportunity to take first place? [/]

Gerry

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Huh? What are you talking about? Unpack this please.

DB

[lazarus]

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David_McQueen said:

Surely people can't expect to have some sudden change of heart when they reach heaven!

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There will be no need to have a change of heart when Jesus comes because all of God's children will be as white as Jesus is! We shall all be changed!

[lazarus]

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cubensis said:

I consider the act of people seperating themselves into "black" churches are making racism even worse.

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I could not let that remark go.......! You obviously don't understand the historical context in which the decision to form regional conferences was made. Black methodists left to form their own movement, baptists left........SDA black stayed its is debatable whether that was the best move!

Washington Missionary College (renamed Columbia Union College) refused to admit Black students, and visiting Black ministers and laymen could not be served in the main Review and Herald diving room. Blacks were not admitted to Adventist hospitals. In some camp meetings, Blacks were sequestered in special sections, and Black ministers had few leadership opportunities.

In 1943 a tragic incident took place that changed the course of the church’s history. Lucy Byard, a light-skinned Black from Brooklyn, New York, was admitted to Washington Sanitarium Hospital (now Washington Adventist Hospital). However, when her racial identity was discovered, hospital attendants wheeled Byard to the front hallway of the hospital, where she waited for several hours to be transferred. Later she died of pneumonia at the Freedman’s Hospital.E(Adventist Review, March 5, 1987, p.5))

[Neil D]

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lazarus said:

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cubensis said:

I consider the act of people seperating themselves into "black" churches are making racism even worse.

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I could not let that remark go.......! You obviously don't understand the historical context in which the decision to form regional conferences was made. Black methodists left to form their own movement, baptists left........SDA black stayed its is debatable whether that was the best move!

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I have to question something....

At what point does racism in our church disappear? IOWs, can racism disappear?

Sure, whites dominated the church and still do in many respects. But that is changing. Whites are becoming more sensitive to the blacks and realize the potiential for all non-whites.

But at what point will the black man say "Racism? in my church? Don't know whatcho mean!"...and at what point we say that all of us have truely become brothers?

[Now, if that doesn't open the door to some real discussion, I don't know....!]

[lazarus]

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But at what point will the black man say "Racism? in my church? Don't know whatcho mean!"...and at what point we say that all of us have truely become brothers?

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I church nearby where I pastor wanted to have as part of their Black history month events a time of truth telling and reconcilliation. The wanted blacks to talk about what they experienced and whites to talk too. This church is still quite mixed, about 40% white. It was a great idea.

I feel that there should be an honest and open exploration of the issue. Whites should be challenged on their continuing racism, black should be challened on their inability to forgive.

Open and honest dialoge. I believe alot of the rection from blacks is as a result of feeling hurt. From whites its often ignorance. From pastors and Conf. officials its fear of raising the issues.

[Neil D]

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I feel that there should be an honest and open exploration of the issue. Whites should be challenged on their continuing racism, black should be challened on their inability to forgive.

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This bothers me....

One, it says that whites are always racist...

I am not sure that is the case.....If I have misspoken, it is due to ignorance, but not all whites are racist. In fact, I tend to think that over half of them are not racist.

But I fear that blacks view whites as racists...and at that point, I give up...It's the "I know that what you heard is not what I said, but I am not sure you realize that what I said is not what I meant." Too many variables to figure out. I am too simple for that.

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black should be challened on their inability to forgive.

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Here is something that I don't understand....

The inability to forgive can lead to violence. And that is an issue that I can not deal with, unless we talk...And I don't know how to talk about it....except to say, 'Let's be friends, and lets go do something together. Let us build trust among us to the point that others would notice and take note."

[Dr. Shane]

I agree that most whites in America are not racist but I have heard some real horror stories about Europe. However racism is not confined to white people. Any race can be racist. In many inner-cities black and hispanic gangs rival each other.

I think Brother Matthews gave a good example with the fruit salad. While we should judge each other by our characheters (or fruit) and not the color of our skin, skin color is a reality and often has culture connected with it that does need to be recognized and addressed.

[Bravus]

Saw the movie 'Crash' tonight, which is about race relations in America. It's quite confronting, with sex, violence and language, so many of you may want to avoid it, but it did a good job of exploring the complexities and the ways in which racism - and a heap of other social forces - play out in people's lives, often in destructive ways. It reminded me that there are no simple answers... except emulating Jesus. That's simple, but far from easy. But until we're ready to raise our hand and put back our enemy's ear after our friend has hacked it off, we'll face problems with racism.

[Gerr]

I get very angry every time I am reminded of that dark chapter in my church. My church!!! My church hospital turning away someone because of their color! So I can understand the origin of the black conferences. But now Blacks can go to ANY SDA school, even the ones that used to be segregated. The president of SECC (Southeastern Calif. Conf.) is now black. We have blacks in the GC. So, what is the continueing rationale for black conferences in view of Jesus' prayer for oneness?

Gerry

[Gerr]

You say that the regional conference construct (I presume you mean the Black Conferences) works for you. IOW, you approve of it, right? I can understand the original reason for their existence - Black exclusion from positions of leadership & power. As I see it, what it boils down to is this: who is going to be first. As I said in another post in this thread, there are no longer positions or places where they are not accessible to anyone. So, in view of the negative witness of having separate black conferences, why continue the practice? By having these separate conferences, are we not proclaiming to the world that we just can't get along? Is it not now just a matter of position & power?

Gerry

[Kountzer]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

You say that the regional conference construct (I presume you mean the Black Conferences) works for you. IOW, you approve of it, right? I can understand the original reason for their existence - Black exclusion from positions of leadership & power. As I see it, what it boils down to is this: who is going to be first. As I said in another post in this thread, there are no longer positions or places where they are not accessible to anyone. So, in view of the negative witness of having separate black conferences, why continue the practice? By having these separate conferences, are we not proclaiming to the world that we just can't get along? Is it not now just a matter of position & power?

Gerry

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I believe you are correct to a certain extent. It comes down to who is going to be first, because whoever is first gets to dictate the worship style. Lots of people are polarized in regards to african american worship, they either like it, or they can tolerate it, or they can't deal with it. I more or less grew up around it, so it doesn't bother me. I spent a couple of years in a white conference church and that style didn't bother me either. I liked the classical music they played sometimes. If you are really, really just seeking God, it doesn't matter.

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: " . . .what is the continueing rationale for black conferences in view of Jesus' prayer for oneness?"

1) The SECC is located in a Union that does not have a Regional Conference. You would expect it to have some African-Americans in leadership.

2) The SECC elected an African-American to that posiiton of leadership after an attempt was launched to introduce a Regional Conference into the Pacific Union Conference.

3) Many (probably most) of the so-called "White Conferences," located in Unions with Regional Conferences have large multi-ethnic churches. How many of these multi-ethnic churches, with African-American members, have African-American pastors on the staff? In cases where they do, how many are the senior pastor?

NOTE: In some cases they do have such. My question asks to what extent is this typical, or is it the exception?

4) How do you respond to the following statement:

"In Unions with Regional Conferences, they are increasing their membership at a faster rate than are the so-called "White Conferences" that are located in the same area? They are also growing at a faster rate than are the multi-ethnic churches that are located in those same 'White Conferences.'"

Folks, the issues regarding the Regional Conferences ae complex.

One issue is that African-Americans do not agree on the solution.

NOTE: In these posts I have repeatedly used the term "African-American." I am aware the term "African-American" is not the prefered term for some. But, I also understand such is true for all other terms. I simply do not know of any term that I can use when I am writing on racial issues, and therefore must make some distinctions, of any term that is the prefered term for all. Therefore, if some have found it offensive, I wish that there was a term that offended no one. But, I do not think that there is such a term.

For those of you who wonder what I have just stated. The group of people commonly called African-Americans include people who do not consider themselves to be African-Americans. But, in my understanding, that is true for every other term that is commonly used. It includes people who do not consider themselves to be a part of that descriptive group.

I guess that this has introduced another issue in the complexities of race relaitons.