Racism in the Adventist Church

[Gerr]

You cannot fly a plane without a pilot's license, but you can preach the gospel without being ordained.

There is a difference between the pope telling his flock who have no say whatsoever on what to believe or not believe, what to do or not do, from the decisions made by the appointed representatives of the world church at large.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Clio, how well would the work of God go forward on this earth without some sort of organization?

Gerry

[Clio]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Clio, how well would the work of God go forward on this earth without some sort of organization?

Gerry

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Gerry, the church age is ending. It has not ended yet. It is rare to be able to point to an exact point in time when prophetic status changes.

However, in answer to your question... It needs no more organization than Jesus gave the disciples.

Do you doubt the ability of Abba Father to accomplish His purposes no matter what man does? I don't.

I am seeing the work of Abba Father move forward in startling ways outside the hothouse environment of the SDA church in NAD.

I have been led to a variety of places on the net, looking for an alternative to this forum. In each place where I have been led, within a few months, one, two, at most three, are led to contact me, and ask me about something I've said. As we communicate, it becomes clear they have studied out key truths such as the Sabbath, the Feasts of the Lord, dietary laws, and end times events for themselves and are keeping Sabbath in their homes or small groups, contemplating the Feasts from a belief and reliance on a resurrected Messiah, and offering a modified, Christ centered version of obedience to the Feasts Celebrations. They are waiting for the literal return of King Jesus in the skies over the planet, not a secret rapture, and they are beginning to network.

They are actively, quietly preparing for the role Abba Father has for them, and are networking not just online, but with 3D addresses. They are selling all they have and using that money to forward Abba's plans for them, whether it be a ministry in a city, or quietly leaving the city and preparing a self-sufficient place outside the city.

AND NONE OF THEM HAVE HEARD OF SDA'S. Or if they have, they believe them to be Mormonish, a cult, and legalistic. And when they hear from me about SDA's, visit a congregation near them, they then refuse to go back. I've had that happen 4 times in the last year. Florida, Ohio, Toronto, and Oregon.

It's been interesting, because I'm nearly driven with a craving to return to some of these places on the net, and when contact is made, and trust established, the need to go back to that board drops away, and I am left with the contact of one or two or three from there who are "like-minded believers".

The drive to be here is also ending. I recognize Abba's hand moving now. I didn't use to, but I've walked it out enough and seen the results I recognize it now. I'll be here a little while longer, but how long, I'm not sure. And I find this a bit frustrating because Abba has had me here so long, and I have enjoyed if for the most part, so I just prepaid a year in advance. And now I'm starting to recognize the signs of restlessness.

The work of Abba is going on quite well without organization. There are refuges being prepared and built all across the country and into Canada. There are people who are absolutely certain they are a link in a chain into the wilderness and are hidden in Him. They take it one step at a time, waiting on the Lord until He provides the funding, the direction, and the timing for the next step to be taken. They press into Him, no matter how foolish it seems in the sight of man.

Abba's business is being forwarded quite well. They are out there building relationships with Jesus, not filling pews in a church. They are turning hearts to Him, and trusting Him to do what He says He will do.

And with no man-made organization supporting them.

They, and those who will eventually leave organized religion when the church age has fully ended comprise the remnant. All others will follow after the Beast and the False Prophet.

That time is not yet, but it will come.

Time is very, very short. Business as usual is no longer usual.

Clio

[Nicodema]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

You cannot fly a plane without a pilot's license, but you can preach the gospel without being ordained.

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This is true. However, you cannot pastor a church within the denomination without being ordained. And if that's what God has in mind for me (and I'm not saying He does because at this point I simply don't know), human beings have no right to place themselves, their opinions, and/or their unsurrendered usurpation of whatever authority HE has entrusted them with, in the way.

If God's will and plan is for me, or any other woman He calls to His service, to be ordained, they shall be ordained, whether the world body is ready to accept Galatians 3:28 as carrying more weight than their cultures/traditions of its constituents, or not. Let their own words so bind them: as they have said in their case the decisions of these mere mortals shall constitute the binding will of God, when they think themselves in such a position to determine such things, let them be bound thereunto and let it be said of those who may make a different decision and have the ability to carry out that decision -- and let them learn thereby the foolishness of presuming God's will is to be determined by any committee of human beings, however devout or circumspect.

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There is a difference between the pope telling his flock who have no say whatsoever on what to believe or not believe, what to do or not do, from the decisions made by the appointed representatives of the world church at large.

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And what difference would that be, exactly? In both cases the "flock member" has only two choices: do as told, or go elsewhere if you don't like it. He may seek to bring change about, but in the end if his attempts are rejected, he is left with those same two choices.

I did not offer you my perspective to engage in argument with you, Gerry. I am not interested in arguing. I have no pressing need to persuade you to my point of view. You are entitled to have your own. You are not, however, entitled to judge my heart based on whether I adopt your view. For this I need not persuade you of anything concerning mine, because scripture already has told you as much.

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Clio, how well would the work of God go forward on this earth without some sort of organization?

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And here you contradict yourself utterly with regard to your first statement to me. You cannot with one breath state glibly, "you can preach the gospel without being ordained" as if participating in the structure were of NO importance -- and then in the next breath presume to take Clio to task for thinking God's work can go forward on this earth "without some sort of organization" as if participation in the structure were the ONLY way the work could go forward!! Gerry you cannot have it both ways!!!

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: "However, you cannot pastor a church within the [sDA]denomination without being ordained."

As you all know by now, I often get off on technical points:

1) Female pastors in the SDA Chruch are not Ordained. They are Commissioned. As such they are SDA pastors.

2) In many parts of the world, local congregations are essentially pastored by so-called lay people who are nto Ordained. As such they likely have a nominall Ordained minister over them who may visit in their congregation as little as four time in a year.

3) Some of our Conferences in the USA are uising lay-people as essentially pastors. As in #2, they likely have a nominal Ordained pastor over them.

[Nicodema]

Thanks for the info, Gregory! I see I am a little out of touch with the technical side. Thanks for enlightening me.

OK guys, sorry for the interlude ... please do get now!

[lazarus]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

2) African-Americans trying to do the same under a different system.

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I'm not sure why you come to that conslusion. What evidence do you have of that?

[Gerr]

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Gregory Matthews said:

Re: "However, you cannot pastor a church within the [sDA]denomination without being ordained."

As you all know by now, I often get off on technical points:

1) Female pastors in the SDA Chruch are not Ordained. They are Commissioned. As such they are SDA pastors.

2) In many parts of the world, local congregations are essentially pastored by so-called lay people who are nto Ordained. As such they likely have a nominall Ordained minister over them who may visit in their congregation as little as four time in a year.

3) Some of our Conferences in the USA are uising lay-people as essentially pastors. As in #2, they likely have a nominal Ordained pastor over them.

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[:"blue"]Thanks for this information Greg. Let me add that my church pastor right now is NOT an ordained minister. He is doing an excellent job. He preaches better sermons than many ordained ministers that have been in the ministry a lot longer. And we have experienced a lot of growth in numbers since he became our pastor. I hope this will allay Nico's fears about not being able to serve unless ordained.

BTW, Greg, was EGW ordained? [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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lazarus said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

2) African-Americans trying to do the same under a different system.

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I'm not sure why you come to that conslusion. What evidence do you have of that?

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[:"blue"]If I am wrong in this I stand corrected. But let me ask you a question: if not for the same reasons, i.e. power, control & privilege, for what other reason would a separate system be established? [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

God's work could certainly go forward without human help, however, He did chose people as His agents through the power of the Holy Spirit to go and teach, otherwise it would have been finished a long time ago. There is no question in my mind that there will be many people who will be in the Kingdom who have no church affiliation. But I also believe that God is a God of order, and that some kind of organization is part of that order. Without organization, there wouldn't be a 3ABN, VOP, IIW, LLUMC, World Vision, etc. etc. without organization.

On what basis do you make the statement that the church age is ending or will soon end?

Gerry

[Kountzer]

The thread that just won't go away. One of these days I'm gonna sit down and catch up on these posts.. maybe this weekend.

DB

[lazarus]

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But let me ask you a question: if not for the same reasons, i.e. power, control & privilege, for what other reason would a separate system be established?

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When I was a kid people used to tell me not to answer a question with a question. I'm still interested to hear why you came to your conclusion.

I think Gregory did a good job is outlining the issues that face/faced minority SDA's across the world in terms of how the church organisation functions

Folks just want to do ministry, worship God etc. Folks want to go where they will be heard, not insulted, not overlooked or looked down on. Black pastors want be considered on the basis of their Spiritual gifts and comitment rather than their color.

Here's a parable....

Jonny's pizza parlour will only serve items on dinner menu to white people. Blacks have protested and written letters but Jonny says thats just the way it is. You can come and sit eat at Lunch but not dinner he says.

Billy is black and opens up a parlour down the road and says that anyone can come and eat anytime. Jonny says that Billy is trying to take away his black customers and trying to put him out of business. Nearly all Billys customers are black.

Jonny writes to the local board of commerce to have Billys restraunt shut down becasue he says Billy is using unfair trading practices, "he letting blacks come into his restraunts all the time!"

I hope this illustrates my point....kind of!

[David_McQueen]

The whole thrust of the thread is one of the reasons I refuse to be part of the wider church. I could care less about GC or BUC or whatever conference there is. We get so caught up in these positions of power and culture and all that nonsense and then sing "When we all get to heaven", and then we wonder why people dont want to grace our churches.

And yes it is a global problem, and yes racism does come from all sides.

Gimme a nice little group of believers who get involved in their community with accountability anyday, who truly put into practice reaching out regardless of these constructs. I prefer to put my freewill offerings into something much more sustainable such as this.

[Clio]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

God's work could certainly go forward without human help, however, He did chose people as His agents through the power of the Holy Spirit to go and teach, otherwise it would have been finished a long time ago. There is no question in my mind that there will be many people who will be in the Kingdom who have no church affiliation. But I also believe that God is a God of order, and that some kind of organization is part of that order. Without organization, there wouldn't be a 3ABN, VOP, IIW, LLUMC, World Vision, etc. etc. without organization.

On what basis do you make the statement that the church age is ending or will soon end?

Gerry

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I make that statement based on the FACT that there will be only a remnant left at the end. A remnant is not a large enough entity to populate a denomination.

We are also told that the whole world and in this context it doesn't mean the world outside the church, it means the WHOLE WORLD save the remnant will follow after and worship the beast and it's image.

The church age IS ending. If you are out there looking, doing, and interacting there is a network being built, not intentionally, or with forethought, but a network nonetheless, of people who are leaving organized religion and returning to the type of worship that the disciples and their first converts experienced.

They are meeting in Christian forums, recognizing like minded believers, establishing 3D methods of contact, leaving the cities, selling what they have and using the proceeds to further reach the lost for a loving Saviour. Some who are convicted they will be called upon to hide persecuted Christians are establishing safe houses, I personally know of 3. One in Oregon, one in North Carolina, and one in British Columbia. Code words are being agreed to, provisions laid in with a belief that they will be extended as needed, but that those laying in the provisions should be prepared, renewable resources for off-grid living are being readied, and deep, in-depth studies focusing on Jesus, on His imminent return, of events right before His return, and of Christian living are being entered into, and preached in places most SDA either fear to tread or refuse to go, because it's "evil".

The lost are being reached, and are hearing the Gospel of a loving, soon returning Saviour, one that is biblical, from people who are passionate about it. And there's no denomination attached. Just voices crying out in the wilderness, "Jesus is coming, repent! Are you ready? He loves you, He doesn't want you to die!"

Ridicule is heaped upon them, scoffers laugh, new agers talke about Christianity as a mental disorder, atheists, agnostics, and witches talk about a bloody god, how Christianity is the cause of all the earth's ills, especially war. In recent months Christianity, or teaching your child to be a Christian has been labeled a form of child abuse in some states and in Great Britain. There was a docu-movie aired there in the last few weeks with that as the topic. It was a two parter.

This is without benefit of the "great light of the SDA prophetess" with regard to what is going to happen at the end. This is from personal Bible study, a conviction regarding the Sabbath, the keeping of the Feasts from a Christ-centered, loving heart, that has a deep yearning to please Abba. There is active, committed preparation to being ready for what is coming. And a yearning to see King Jesus in the skies over the planet, come to take them home.

Organized religion, of ALL DENOMINATIONS, including the Seventh Day Adventist church WILL BE on the side of the Adversary, unknowingly perhaps, but still on the wrong side, by the end. And when sleepers who refuse to believe that this could happen to us finally wake up, it's going to be too late.

Are you sure when EGW says the church will not fall that she meant the SDA church, or did she mean the church in the sense of the body of Christ? There isn't going to be any form of corporate church unless it is a registered entity with the beast system. To think otherwise someone HAS to have their head in the sand.

Remember, this is going to be trouble like there never was. Remember that the destruction of the temple in 70 AD was like a shadow of what is to come. And that destruction was so complete it scattered the Jews to the ends of the earth for nearly 2000 years. The end is going to be so horrific that most can't even begin to conceive of what it's going to be like.

But the idea that the SDA church is going to endure to the end with an organization that stands squarely on the side of Abba when there won't be enough true believers left to even populate a denomination.... *shakes head* There is still a little time left, but the door on the church age is swinging shut.

We are at the door of change now, and it is swinging open.

In 2.5 years you will be required to have a mark without which you will not be allowed to have a bank account or a job. Are you ready for that?

The deadline is May 15, 2008. And a quote from a NEWS.com says this:

"if you live or work in the United States, you'll need a federally approved ID card to travel on an airplane, open a bank account, collect Social Security payments, or take advantage of nearly any government service. Practically speaking, your driver's license likely will have to be reissued to meet federal standards."

Like pay your taxes. So if you don't have one of these, you won't be able to have a job either. They interact with the government on your behalf. It is at the moment a card, but DHS has decided a finger print or a retinal scan must also be on file.

They have recently, under their new director, Chertoff, made it very clear that they would actually prefer a remotely readable embedded RFID chip.

Laugh and poke holes if you want. But the fact remains, by May 15th, 2008 every single American will have to have provided a finger print or a retinal scan (hand and head?) for a mark (identifier), which prevents or allows them the ability to earn money, access the money, and use it to purchase items (buy or sell), for reasons other than their ability to pay.

Do you really want to take a chance when for the first time in the history of the world something is being established that without this identifier you will not be able to buy or sell?

For anyone familiar with Revelation, whether you are convicted or whether you just can't believe it's that late already, this should be raising a huge red flag.

And that it's not, tells me that there are a huge number of wide awake sleepers who are going to be shocked, and I'm starting to fear for the numbers in the remnant. I think it's going to be incredibly small, but as time goes on, even that number in my mind is shrinking.

Clio

[Nicodema]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Quote:

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Gregory Matthews said:

1) Female pastors in the SDA Church are not Ordained. They are Commissioned. As such they are SDA pastors.

2) In many parts of the world, local congregations are essentially pastored by so-called lay people who are nto Ordained. As such they likely have a nominall Ordained minister over them who may visit in their congregation as little as four time in a year.

3) Some of our Conferences in the USA are uising lay-people as essentially pastors. As in #2, they likely have a nominal Ordained pastor over them.

---

[:"blue"]Thanks for this information Greg. Let me add that my church pastor right now is NOT an ordained minister. He is doing an excellent job. He preaches better sermons than many ordained ministers that have been in the ministry a lot longer. And we have experienced a lot of growth in numbers since he became our pastor. I hope this will allay Nico's fears about not being able to serve unless ordained.[/]

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Yes, it certainly does, in great measure! Thank you both, gentlemen.

[Nicodema]

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Clio said:

Organized religion, of ALL DENOMINATIONS, including the Seventh Day Adventist church WILL BE on the side of the Adversary, unknowingly perhaps, but still on the wrong side, by the end. And when sleepers who refuse to believe that this could happen to

us

finally wake up, it's going to be too late.

... There isn't going to

be

any form of corporate church unless it is a registered entity with the beast system.

---

This is absolutely true, and (at least in the USA) a significant portion of this reality is due to 501©(3) tax exemption status, which gives the government the right to make whatever rules it sees fit upon those churches and other organizations which enjoy such status.

I have also witnessed compromise and currying of favor with "the State." Men enter these alliances believing no harm can result, that God will simply bless these efforts and use them to produce much good that would otherwise not accrue, most notably in financial and legal matters. In some cases thus far this appears to be the case, but the end is not yet come. However we must note that these are the two arenas in which Revelation 13 issues strongest warning about: matters of law and economy. To curry favor with the State for the purpose of obtaining favor in either of these areas carries tremendous risk which may not be seen clearly until, as Clio stated, it is too late.

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In 2.5 years you will be required to have a mark without which you will not be allowed to have a bank account or a job. Are you ready for that?

The deadline is May 15, 2008. And a quote from a NEWS.com says this:

"if you live or work in the United States, you'll need a federally approved ID card to travel on an airplane,

open a bank account

, collect Social Security payments, or take advantage of nearly

any

government service. Practically speaking, your driver's license likely will have to be reissued to meet federal standards."

---

All conveniently scheduled, I note for the record, before the next presidential election.

Clio can you provide some URLs to this stuff? I'd like to read more about it. It sounds vaguely familiar but I can't remember where I saw the article online.

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Laugh and poke holes if you want. But the fact remains, by May 15th, 2008 every single American will have to have provided a finger print or a retinal scan (hand and head?) for a mark (identifier), which prevents or allows them the ability to earn money, access the money, and use it to purchase items (buy or sell), for reasons other than their ability to pay.

Do you really want to take a chance when for the first time in the history of the world something is being established that without this identifier you will not be able to buy or sell?

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I'm not laughing, Clio. Point me in the direction to a safe house, please.

[Clio]

Google Real ID

There are HUNDREDS of links.

There are current articles stating how the government drastically underestimated the cost of converting existing documents, and how the solution is a remote-readable RFID chip, which is the preferred mechanism anyway, by Homeland Security.

And you already have the address to one. I've seen you use it.

Clio

[Nicodema]

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And you already have the address to one. I've seen you use it.

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Really??? Where???

I will Google it. I must have come across it at some point, like I said, and forgotten where...

[Gerr]

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Clio said:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

God's work could certainly go forward without human help, however, He did chose people as His agents through the power of the Holy Spirit to go and teach, otherwise it would have been finished a long time ago. There is no question in my mind that there will be many people who will be in the Kingdom who have no church affiliation. But I also believe that God is a God of order, and that some kind of organization is part of that order. Without organization, there wouldn't be a 3ABN, VOP, IIW, LLUMC, World Vision, etc. etc. without organization.

On what basis do you make the statement that the church age is ending or will soon end?

Gerry

---

I make that statement based on the FACT that there will be only a remnant left at the end. A remnant is not a large enough entity to populate a denomination.

We are also told that the whole world and in this context it doesn't mean the world outside the church, it means the WHOLE WORLD save the remnant will follow after and worship the beast and it's image.

The church age IS ending. If you are out there looking, doing, and interacting there is a network being built, not intentionally, or with forethought, but a network nonetheless, of people who are leaving organized religion and returning to the type of worship that the disciples and their first converts experienced.

---

[:"blue"]"God has a church on earth who are lifting up the downtrodden law, and presenting to the world the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world...

There is but one church in the world who are at the present time standing in the breach and making up the hedge, building up the old waster places..." LDE 43

"Light was given by His Spirit that there must be order and thorough discipline in the church - that organization was essential. System and order are manifest in all the works of God throught the universe. Order is the law of heaven, and it should be the law of God's people on earth." Ibid 46

"Some have advanced the thought that, as we near the close of time, every child of God will act independently of any religious organization. But I have been instructed by the Lord that in this work there is no such thing as every man's being independent.

As we near the final crisis, instead of feeling that there is less need of order and harmony of action, we should be more systematic than heretofore." Ibid 47 [/]

Gerry

[Clio]

There will be system and order. Totally agree. But not with any entity registered with the beast system.

Perhaps there will be some changes that are heretofore below the horizon.

The church age IS ending, Gerry. Where this denomination will finally come to rest still remains to be seen.

But there will be order, and it will have structure. What is occurring is NOT without order, or spiritual guidance. And I have said many times that while I believe the church age to be ending, that time IS NOT YET!

Please note in your quote that she speaks in particular of the present time.

Also as we near the final crisis. I tend to think in terms of being in the final crisis. Which is not yet.

I do not disagree with any of those statements. But look closely at them. Not one of the applies to the actual time of the end, when we are actually IN the final crisis.

In each one she qualifies it with the words "near", "approach" "present time".

We shall see. It shall be according to Abba's perfect will and pleasure.

Clio