Romans 7:1

[bluejx]

You're right of course.  I stand corrected.

[Ron Amnsn]

On 2/25/2016 at 9:28 PM, Ron Amnsn said:

The Law of God was never given as a means to earn eternal salvation.

On 2/27/2016 at 10:58 AM, Robert said:

Matt 19:16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” 17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me (i.e., a "good teacher") good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

The questioner asked Jesus about eternal life, but Jesus didn't always answer the question that people asked. In this case, Jesus turns the conversation away from "earning eternal life", choosing instead to highlight the implication of the man's own words-- that by calling Jesus "good teacher" the man had suggested that Jesus was like God. Then Jesus points the man back to what the Scriptures taught about how to "enter into life", echoing what Moses taught in Deuteronomy 30:

15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil. 16 If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it. 17 But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, 20 loving the LORD your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.”

Obeying God is not presented as a way to "earn" life, either in this life or the next. Rather it is presented as something that God provides already to those who choose God and His ways. That was the case with this young man too. From what Jesus and the young man said, there was nothing more for the young man to do to "enter into life".  The man was already there-- there was nothing to "earn" at that stage.  Then Jesus raises the bar beyond what is taught in the Law saying, "If you would be perfect [or complete], go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."  Notice that Jesus did not tell the man he needed to be perfect in order to have eternal life.  Jesus seems to be giving the man an opportunity to reach beyond his original goal of eternal life-- to obtain treasure that has value in heaven, to be better than necessary, and to follow Jesus.

[Robert]

17 hours ago, Ron Amnsn said:

The questioner asked Jesus about eternal life, but Jesus didn't always answer the question that people asked.

Correction:  The questioner asked Christ what good thing he could do in return for eternal life.  You need to be honest with the context.  Here is is again:

Matt 19:16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” 

Quote

by calling Jesus "good teacher" the man had suggested that Jesus was like God

That's completely opposite what the context reveals.  When the questioner addressed Christ as a "Good teacher" Jesus responded by stating, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God." Matt 19:17 NKJV

Is Christ good?  Yes, because Christ is God, but the man wasn't addressing Christ as God, he was addressing Christ as a teacher of the law.  The teachers of the law were regarded as good and righteous; that's why Christ corrected him.

Quote

 Notice that Jesus did not tell the man he needed to be perfect in order to have eternal life. 

Again, false.  You aren't being true to the context:

"if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

The man replied:  I've kept all the rules since Sabbath School.

Jesus said, if you really agape your neighbor as you love yourself, give all you possessions to the poor and come and live my selfless life.  That's keeping the law perfectly.

[Ron Amnsn]

3 hours ago, Robert said:

Correction:  The questioner asked Christ what good thing he could do in return for eternal life.  You need to be honest with the context.  Here is is again:

Matt 19:16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” 

That's completely opposite what the context reveals.  When the questioner addressed Christ as a "Good teacher" Jesus responded by stating, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God." Matt 19:17 NKJV

Is Christ good?  Yes, because Christ is God, but the man wasn't addressing Christ as God, he was addressing Christ as a teacher of the law.  The teachers of the law were regarded as good and righteous; that's why Christ corrected him.

Again, false.  You aren't being true to the context:

"if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

The man replied:  I've kept all the rules since Sabbath School.

Jesus said, if you really agape your neighbor as you love yourself, give all you possessions to the poor and come and live my selfless life.  That's keeping the law perfectly.

One problem with this interpretation is that it has Jesus adding to God's Law, which is expressly prohibited in God's Law.  Besides having Jesus add the new requirement for the rich man to sell his goods to give to the poor, you also have Jesus making the this newly expanded Law of God a means of earning eternal salvation, something which is not taught in the Law of God or anywhere else in the Old Testament Scriptures.

Of course, you may be right, and I may be wrong. We are so far removed from the cultural context of that day, that I may be totally off the mark.

It just seems that you have a rather negative and legalistic view of God's Law, and that you are making God's Law far more onerous than what is taught in Scripture.

You also seem to be making personal eternal salvation the main issue, the ultimate goal, and the highest achievement of a person's life. The people in Scripture, on the other hand, seem to be concerned more about living this life well -- in a manner that honors God -- than in squeaking into heaven someday. Which of the people in the whole Old Testament showed concern about their eternal salvation?  Very few, if any. They apparently trusted God to take care of that. They were more concerned with honoring God, and seeing righteousness restored in the Land, and looked forward to the restoration of the Kingdom (which they expected to be set up in Israel).

Scripture seems to teach that personal salvation is something that God takes care of very early in a person's relationship with God, when we first enter into covenant relationship with God and begin to walk in His ways. If personal salvation comes at the beginning of a person's walk with God, then personal salvation isn't what we are striving for in this life.  I think God intends for us to pursue greater things.

The afterlife and concern about whether a person would "make it" into heaven seems to be something that the Israelites picked up between the Old Testament and the New Testament when they were dominated by Greek culture.  That's why I think Jesus was trying to show the rich young man that he was asking totally the wrong question.  After all, pursuing personal salvation is a somewhat selfish goal.  The apostle Paul seems ready to give up his own salvation if by doing so he could benefit the non-believing population of Israelites (Romans 9:1-4), which is very similar to the attitude that Jesus also had towards sinners.

[Robert]

1 hour ago, Ron Amnsn said:

One problem with this interpretation is that it has Jesus adding to God's Law, which is expressly prohibited in God's Law.  Besides having Jesus add the new requirement for the rich man to sell his goods to give to the poor, you also have Jesus making the this newly expanded Law of God a means of earning eternal salvation, something which is not taught in the Law of God or anywhere else in the Old Testament Scriptures.

It's not my interpretation - it's the context.  Jesus isn't adding to God's law.  The Ten Commandment has a spiritual side not explained in the letter of the law. See Matthew chapter 5:21-48

Paul states that "the whole law" is expressed in this one sentence, "you shall love your neighbor as you love yourself"  (See Gal 5:14).  Self-love is a given for we are born loving self.  The law demands agape, a love that is not self-seeking.  Therefore if one is to win heaven by law one must exhibit no self-love.  Anything outside of agape is sin, period. 

The law was never given as a means of salvation.   The law was given to make sinners, transgressors (see Rom 5:20/Gal 3:19-25).  To remain under law means death, the 2nd death.  Christ offers His righteousness in place of our filthy rags.

The problem is that mankind is is by nature proud and legalistic.  How many people look at themselves as wretched sinners?  Very few and they are probably believers.  So in order for the self-righteous to give up on their own righteousness and accepted the righteousness of Christ, God gave the law.  It's called the Old Covenant.  The Old Covenant was designed to take the glory of men and cast it to the ground.  Those who see their nothingness are prepared to be clothed with the righteousness of Christ.

[Ron Amnsn]

1 hour ago, Robert said:

It's not my interpretation - it's the context.  Jesus isn't adding to God's law.  The Ten Commandment has a spiritual side not explained in the letter of the law. See Matthew chapter 5:21-48

Paul states that "the whole law" is expressed in this one sentence, "you shall love your neighbor as you love yourself"  (See Gal 5:14).  Self-love is a given for we are born loving self.  The law demands agape, a love that is not self-seeking.  Therefore if one is to win heaven by law one must exhibit no self-love.  Anything outside of agape is sin, period. 

The law was never given as a means of salvation.   The law was given to make sinners, transgressors (see Rom 5:20/Gal 3:19-25).  To remain under law means death, the 2nd death.  Christ offers His righteousness in place of our filthy rags.

The problem is that mankind is is by nature proud and legalistic.  How many people look at themselves as wretched sinners?  Very few and they are probably believers.  So in order for the self-righteous to give up on their own righteousness and accepted the righteousness of Christ, God gave the law.  It's called the Old Covenant.  The Old Covenant was designed to take the glory of men and cast it to the ground.  Those who see their nothingness are prepared to be clothed with the righteousness of Christ.

I totally agree that the law was never given as a means to salvation.  That's why I disagree with your assertion that Jesus was telling the rich young man how to earn salvation by keeping an expanded version of the law.  Doesn't make sense.

There was a context when Paul said that whole Law was fulfilled in one word, which he quoted from Leviticus 19:18.  Paul was not adding to the Law nor taking away from the Law.  And neither did Jesus, unless he was actually teaching what you say Jesus was teaching to the rich young man.

The Law does say to love your neighbor as yourself, but it doesn't specify that one must sell his possessions in order to do so.  Even in the parable of the Good Samaritan, Jesus did not have the Samaritan sell his donkey in order to provide for the wounded man.  After the Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost, the believers did sell some possessions to care for the poor among them, but that was not a requirement of God's Law -- Peter even told Ananias that he had not been required to sell or to give.  There is no record that Jesus himself sold any of his possessions to give to the poor, so if that was a requirement of the Law Jesus may have fallen short.

You seem to have accepted a rather negative and warped view of the Old Covenant, probably so you can set it up as a straw man to knock over with your non-Scriptural theories.

Your assertion that the Law demands "agape" love is rather novel, since the Law is written in Hebrew, and "agape" is a Greek concept.  How does the Law specify that in Hebrew?

I agree that Christ does offer us his righteousness in place of our filthy rags.  What does that offered righteousness look like?  Wouldn't the righteousness Jesus offers to us look like his own righteousness?  The righteousness of Jesus was formed by obedience to the Old Covenant.  So shouldn't we expect that those actually wearing the righteousness provided by Jesus would live like Jesus did?

How can you tell the difference between those who follow the Law of God because they are wearing the righteousness provided by Messiah, and those who follow the Law of God because they are supposedly trying to earn their way to heaven?

[Robert]

4 hours ago, Ron Amnsn said:

The Law does say to love your neighbor as yourself, but it doesn't specify that one must sell his possessions in order to do so. 

If you truly love your neighbor as you by nature love self then giving all you possess to the poor would be an act of agape.  Hence Paul stated, "Let no man seek his own (wealth, which is self-seeking and therefore sin), but every man another's wealth."  (1 Cor 10:24) Agape has no self-seeking in it.  You live for others and they live for you.  Anything outside agape is sin.  Hence "there is none righteous, no, not even one."

 

 

[Robert]

4 hours ago, Ron Amnsn said:

That's why I disagree with your assertion that Jesus was telling the rich young man how to earn salvation by keeping an expanded version of the law.  Doesn't make sense.

I explained this.  Here it is again:

Quote

The problem is that mankind is is by nature proud and legalistic.  How many people look at themselves as wretched sinners?  Very few and they are probably believers.  So in order for the self-righteous to give up on their own righteousness and accept the righteousness of Christ, God gave the law.  It's called the Old Covenant.  The Old Covenant was designed to take the glory of men and cast it to the ground.  Those who see their nothingness are prepared to be clothed with the righteousness of Christ.

 

[Robert]

5 hours ago, Ron Amnsn said:

After the Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost, the believers did sell some possessions to care for the poor among them, but that was not a requirement of God's Law -- Peter even told Ananias that he had not been required to sell or to give.  There is no record that Jesus himself sold any of his possessions to give to the poor, so if that was a requirement of the Law Jesus may have fallen short.

1] Jesus didn't own anything.  He lived not for Himself.  He lived only for others.  Jesus fulfilled the law.

2] The believers did much more then sell their possessions. Acts 4:23 " ...neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common. 33 And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all. 34 Nor was there anyone among them who lacked...." The answer to poverty is agape, not self-love. Our love of self excludes those less fortunate.  Hence the poor.

3] The heart of the law commands us to "love our neighbors as we love ourselves."  Self-love is a given.  The law is telling us not to love self, but to take this self-love and bend it outward, instead of inward, and in doing so live for the wealth of others.  Hence "agape...is not self-seeking" (1 Cor 13:5).  "Agape is the fulfillment of the law." Without agape you aren't keeping the law, you are keeping "the law of sin"