Unconditional Grace - truth or heresy?

[Gerr]

Well?

[Gail]

Okay, I'll bite!

It is available to all but on the condition that one wants it.

[Robert]

Jesus has universally saved all mankind from under the curse.  That's unconditional.  

Everyone who is condemned has ultimately and persistently rejected what Christ accomplished. 

 

 

[Gerr]

So Gail, Robert, is grace conditional or unconditional?

[Robert]

44 minutes ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

So Gail, Robert, is grace conditional or unconditional?

Let me default to Eph 2:4-9

 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love (agape) with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions (i.e., sinners and living for the flesh), made us alive together with Christ - by grace you have been saved, 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 

According to Paul God saved us, not when we became believers, but when we were dead in our transgressions.  Hence "in Christ" we have been saved by God's grace.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 

Faith is not the savior.  Rather faith is accepting what has already happened in the holy history of Christ. To reject the gospel is to reject life.  To reject the gospel is go back under the jurisdiction of the law.

[Gerr]

According to Gail, there is a condition, I.e. one has to want it.  And if I understand you correctly, the condition is that one not reject it, which is saying the same thing as Gail. 

The reason I brought this subject up is that the link for Larry Caviness' info about his memorial contained the phrase unconditional grace.  Salvation is free, yes, and it is offered to everyone - none excluded. But there are conditions.

[Gerr]

The Scriptures use a number of metaphors to illustrate salvation.  In the Covenant model (dominant in the OT), the inferior must accept the covenant & obey its terms.  In the Redemption model, again the one sold or captured & enslaved must be willing to be redeemed or ransomed.  Ditto the Adoption model, the Grafting model.  In the metaphor that Jesus used in Jn 6, one must eat & drink His blood to have life.  In the Legal court model of Paul, one must accept a righteousness from God by faith.  

So it seems to me that "unconditional grace" is not biblical.

[Robert]

10 hours ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

According to Gail, there is a condition, I.e. one has to want it.  And if I understand you correctly, the condition is that one not reject it, which is saying the same thing as Gail. 

Yes, but not all have heard the gospel.  Some die before reaching the age of accountability.  Others have never heard the name of Christ, but through nature realize there's something bigger than themselves.

If we go with the traditional view that we must first do something (usually believe, repent, etc)  then what, too bad for those guys?

Here's Jack on this subject:

Adventists traditionally belong to the Wesleyan Arminian school of theology.  Unlike the Calvinists, who believe that Christ saved only the elect on the cross, hence “limited atonement,” the Arminians believe that Christ only “potentially” or “provisionally” saved all of mankind on the cross.  For this provisional salvation to become a reality, one must repent and believe in Jesus Christ.  Only then will God place that person into Christ and the provision will become a reality.  Thus, traditionally, we Adventists have limited the in Christ motif only to believers.

The main argument that has often been used to prove that the in Christ motif applies only to believers is Romans 16:7.  In this chapter of greetings Paul makes this statement:  “Greet Andronicus and Junias, my relatives who have been in prison on with me....  They were in Christ before I was” (NIV, emphasis mine).  Clearly, what Paul is implying is that these two men accepted the truth as it is in Christ and were converted before Paul himself.  To build a whole theology on this one text while ignoring all the other in Christtexts Paul uses (some 64 times) is very poor exegesis, to say the least.

Further, this conclusion is a subtle form of legalism, salvation by works, since repentance and faith contribute towards ones salvation.  Whereas, according to Paul, it is the goodness of God (the reality phase or objective facts of the gospel) that leads one to faith and repentance (Romans 2:4).  Hence, faith is not allowing God or giving Him permission to put us into Christ but accepting with grateful hearts what God has already accomplished for mankind in Christ (1 Corinthians 1:30-31; 2 Corinthians 5:18-20; Ephesians 1:3-4).

It is here where I disagree with the teachings of the Biblical Research Institute (BRI) of the GC, as well as some of the Independent Ministries.  I believe that the true everlasting gospel, which God raised the Advent Movement to proclaim to the world in its global mission, is neither the limited atonement of Calvinism nor the provisional salvation of Arminianism.  Rather, it is the incredible good news that on the cross the entire human race was actually or objectively redeemed, justified, and reconciled to God by the death of His Son (John 3:17; 17:4; 19:30; Romans 5:5-10,18; Ephesians 2:5, 6, 8, 9; 2 Corinthians 5:19).

 

[Gerr]

If the whole human race was justified at the cross, then do I understand the author to mean that all who have not had opportunity to reject the gospel are/will be saved?

[LifeHiscost]

1 hour ago, Robert said:

 

It is here where I disagree with the teachings of the Biblical Research Institute (BRI) of the GC, as well as some of the Independent Ministries.  I believe that the true everlasting gospel, which God raised the Advent Movement to proclaim to the world in its global mission, is neither the limited atonement of Calvinism nor the provisional salvation of Arminianism.  Rather, it is the incredible good news that on the cross the entire human race was actually or objectively redeemed, justified, and reconciled to God by the death of His Son (John 3:17; 17:4; 19:30; Romans 5:5-10,18; Ephesians 2:5, 6, 8, 9; 2 Corinthians 5:19).

 

Would that mean that all those folks who didn't take advantage of entering the ark during the 120 years Noah preached righteousness, aren't the example the new testament makes them out to be.

Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood.^{[a] 21} And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from^[b] a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ....1 Peter 3

15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you....John 13

 

11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come......1 Corinthians 10

 

God is Love!~Jesus saves!  

 

[Robert]

1 hour ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

If the whole human race was justified at the cross, then do I understand the author to mean that all who have not had opportunity to reject the gospel are/will be saved?

By "saved" I mean saved from the curse of the law, which is the 2nd death. 

I firmly believe that all who have died before they have reached the age of accountability will be in heaven based on the gospel.

As to those who do not have the Bible or the law (Torah), Paul says:  "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." Rom 1:20 

The bottom line is everyone, who has reached the age of maturity and can therefore reason, is given light. If they reject light they will reveal this in their conscience.  That is why Paul says, "their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus." Rom 2:15,16

 

[Gerr]

I don't have any firm convictions about those who have not reached the age accountability.  You may be correct that they will be saved.  It may also be that they will be "as though they have never been".

if you are correct, then every time a child dies should be a time for rejoicing because he/she is assured of eternal life?

[Robert]

22 hours ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

if you are correct, then every time a child dies should be a time for rejoicing because he/she is assured of eternal life?

Paul said "to die is gain", but no one is happy at a funeral. 

[Robert]

23 hours ago, Wrxdod16 said:

LifeHisCost brought up a profound point. We could assume there were people dispersed all over the world but only 8 were saved. I agree those who die before the age of accountability should be saved. But, did Noah preach directly to each of the possible billions of people in the world? I suspect not. However we must also assume God closed probation on billions of people for a reason.

Ellen White, speaking of the time of trouble says: " Many will be laid away to sleep before the fiery ordeal of the time of trouble shall come upon our world." CH 375.2}  I believe somewhere she stated the same concerning the flood. 

[JoeMo]

On ‎3‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 6:18 PM, Gerry Cabalo said:

If the whole human race was justified at the cross, then do I understand the author to mean that all who have not had opportunity to reject the gospel are/will be saved?

My personal opinion (not a personal dogma) is that all who have not had an opportunity to make an intelligent, informed decision to accept or reject the gospel in this life will get an opportunity to do so when they are resurrected after the millennium.  When scripture says men will be judged according to their deeds, IMHO those "deeds" revolve around accepting or rejecting the salvation from and Kingship of Jesus Christ.  I won't get into the details of this opinion.  8thdaypriest has discussed this at length in her posts on CA and in her website www.prophecyviewpoint.com.  I think she is right on target.  See her website if you want to learn more about this concept.

[LifeHiscost]

On 3/11/2016 at 3:47 PM, Robert said:

Jesus has universally saved all mankind from under the curse.  That's unconditional.  

Everyone who is condemned has ultimately and persistently rejected what Christ accomplished. 

 

 

I am either saved or lost. There is no such thing as being saved until Jesus' blood washes my sins away and casts them into the depths of the sea. That doesn't happen until I confess my sins and receive the repentance Jesus is willing to give to the soul (person) accepting it.

⁹ If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.....1 John 1

God is Love!~Jesus saves!    

[Robert]

37 minutes ago, LifeHiscost said:

I am either saved or lost. There is no such thing as being saved until Jesus' blood washes my sins away and casts them into the depths of the sea. That doesn't happen until I confess my sins and receive the repentance Jesus is willing to give to the soul (person) accepting it.

⁹ If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.....1 John 1

God is Love!~Jesus saves!    

 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. Rom 5:18

8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners,Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. Rom 5:8-10

 

 

 

[LifeHiscost]

Posted Wednesday at 12:08 AM · Report post

On 3/16/2016 at 11:26 PM, LifeHiscost said:

I am either saved or lost. There is no such thing as being saved until Jesus' blood washes my sins away and casts them into the depths of the sea. That doesn't happen until I confess my sins and receive the repentance Jesus is willing to give to the soul (person) accepting it.

⁹ If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.....1 John 1

God is Love!~Jesus saves!    

 

 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. Rom 5:18

8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners,Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. Rom 5:8-10.

Alll true.

God is Love!~Jesus saves!  

[joeb]

For us to be saved by grace there are multiple conditions. 

1.  Repentance of, and for, sin.

2.  Acknowledgment of our helplessness.

3.  A life of continual connection to Christ.

Just because something is free doesn't mean there aren't conditions attached to it.  Salvation costs us everything we are when we accept Christ. 

[Ron Amnsn]

On 3/16/2016 at 0:08 AM, Robert said:

So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. Rom 5:18

8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners,Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. Rom 5:8-10

So, is redemption a one-step process?  Is there more to it than justification?

The reason I ask is because, as promising as these verses are, they don't seem to deal with the original problem of sin.  Yes, justification takes care of the penalty, the debt, the curse, or the guilt -- whatever you want to call it.  That is really great. 

But if they let me into the Kingdom of Heaven just because I've been justified, how long would it be before I start making trouble because of the pride, jealousy, and rebellion that I've nurtured and brought with me?  So, if justification is my ticket into the Kingdom, what's going to change me and make me a good citizen of the Kingdom?

[Ron Amnsn]

The teachings of Jesus seem to indicate that it took more than "universal" justification to be saved or to enter the kingdom of God.  For instance, look at Luke 13:23 and following:

23 Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”
He said to them, 24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’
“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’
26 “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’
27 “But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’
28 “There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30 Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last.”

 

[Ron Amnsn]

The teachings of Jesus also seem to indicate that even among the "saved" there will be greater and lesser rewards, based on what people have done.

Matt 5:12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Matt 6:1 “Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.

Matt 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.

So there seems to be more to following Jesus than just getting "saved".

[Robert]

15 hours ago, Ron Amnsn said:

So, is redemption a one-step process?  Is there more to it than justification?

Do you think that for 1ms you can add to Christ's finished work?  

[Robert]

1 hour ago, Ron Amnsn said:

The teachings of Jesus seem to indicate that it took more than "universal" justification to be saved or to enter the kingdom of God.  For instance, look at Luke 13:23 and following:

He said to them, 24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.

Yes, to enter the door requires that you bring nothing.  Your own self-righteousness must be left outside the door because there's only room for you, the sinner..... 

[Ron Amnsn]

9 hours ago, Robert said:

Do you think that for 1ms you can add to Christ's finished work?  

Yes and no.

No, Christ's work is for Christ to do.  Part of Christ's yet unfinished work will be to judge each person according to what each has done.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. (2Cor 5:10)

Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. (Rev. 20:12-13)

“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. (Rev. 22:13)

Yet, besides Christ's work, which Christ himself has done and will do, God has also given each of us our own work to do.  Our work is not the same as Christ's work, yet our work is given to us by God.

So you also, when you have done all that you were commanded, say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.’ ” ( Luke 17:10)

God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. (Rom. 2:6-7)   [Notice that in verse 6 Paul quotes from the Old Testament, so Paul apparently thinks that is still valid.]

You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.  (Heb. 10:36)

Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. (James 3:13)

And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.  (1John 2:3-6)

Notice how Paul summarizes the Gospel that he preached:

Through him and for his name’s sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.  (Rom. 1:5)

For I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me to bring the Gentiles to obedience—by word and deed, (Rom. 15:18)

“So, King Agrippa, I did not prove disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance. (Acts 26:19-20)

The "gospel" of dead faith that you have promoted, Robert, seems to be lacking some of the elements which Paul preached in the Gospel of Christ.

By the way, where does Scripture talk about this "finished work" of Messiah that you speak of?  I searched and couldn't find in Scripture something that resembled what you were talking about.