How well do you handle abuse?

[Naomi]

On ‎3‎/‎28‎/‎2016 at 3:07 PM, Gail said:

Can you imagine living in a place where you do not have the freedom to speak out against oppression?

Actually it doesn't necessarily have to be in a foreign country, living under the rule of dictatorship; one can live in a home in which your freedom to speak out against oppression has been taken from you.  True or False?

[Gregory Matthews]

I am blown away by the inference that Christ's advice not to take up the sword means that one should tolerate abuse!  Christ's advice is sound.  In the typical abuse situation there is an in-balance of power.  The abuser typically has more power than the one who is abused.   For the weaker person to "pick up the sword" and engage in physical combat would likely result in more harm to the abused person.  

There are a number of ways in which a person living in the United States of America can refuse to tolerate abuse:

1)  They may leave the situation in which it occurs.  This may include leaving a marriage.  It may include leaving a religious community.  It may include an employment situation.  There could be given other examples of leaving something.

2)  It could include obtaining a legal order that prohibits someone from contacting the abused person.  This would be a civil action.

3)  It could include participating in the prosecution of the abuser under criminal law.

To those of you responding in this manner, to what extent have you been personally involved in working with abused people.;  I have been personally involved with women who were in situations where:

a)  There have been bones that were broken--I am thinking now of a broken leg.

'b)  Raped and/or forced to perform sex acts that violated their personal choice.

c)   Religious communities thought that people who reported sexual abuse of children to the civil authorities should be disciplined for failing to follow the Biblical teachings.  NOTE:  I could list other examples of spiritual abuse.  It exists and it may exist within the SDA denomination.

[Gregory Matthews]

Tolerating abuse and not reporting to civil authorities:

I am thinking now of an example where the abused person was a 4 year-old female!  You have got to be kidding.  And I could give other similar examples as I think about I think about a 10 year old female. 

By the way, in the example above it was claimed that the 4 year-old was responsible for the seduction of the male!

In my professional experience, I could give examples both inside and outside of the SDA denomination.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Sorry folks.  My anger has been aroused and I do have a bias.  So, I need to quit posting on this subject for a bit.

[GayatfootofCross]

Just now, Gregory Matthews said:

Sorry folks.  My anger has been aroused and I do have a bias.  So, I need to quit posting on this subject for a bit.

I saw that tone  and i agree your posts on abuse

Its ok!

please leave your posts up

u r making good points

[Gregory Matthews]

Oh, I am not going to remove my posts.

In my professional experience, when I was dealing with a competent adult, the first thing that I needed to accomplish was to  bring the person to the place where they were willing to take action to stop the abuse.

I was once in a situation where the woman was in a very abusive physical situation.  I brought her to the place where she reported it to the civil authorities.  Then she recanted and alleged that I had manipulated her against her will to falsely report her husband.  What saved me was the fact that I did not accompany her to the report that she made to the civil authorities.  She did it on her own at a time when I was not present.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

I am also aware that males can be abused and that those who abuse may be female.  But, in my professional experience, I have worked with females who were abused by males.  And it was males who abused female children.

Also people can be abused on the basis of their sexuality as well as many other alleged issues.

[Bravus]

On 3/29/2016 at 7:29 PM, Aliensanctuary said:

Unfortunately, abused children grow up to become abusers of their children, thus perpetuating the vicious, soul-destroying cycle.

Sometimes, but not inevitably. It's important to come to understand the kinds of things that make the difference.

[Bravus]

The thread so far has been a little muddled, because responses have related to (a) abuse received personally, (b) abuse of others observed personally, (c) both or (d) one or the other but it's not always clear which. Another issue is abuse observed from afar, e.g. on television.

I think I have probably grown enough that in most cases if I personally am abused I can step back, take a deep breath and think about what is said. If it is criticism of something I have actually done wrong, I try not to receive it as abuse, even if it isn't said very kindly, but to see it as an opportunity to learn and grow. On the other hand, if it is undeserved, I try to see what is going on in the abuser's life that is causing the need to abuse me.

(Side note: I'm talking about verbal abuse here, whether face-to-face, on the phone, by mail or email or in online forums. I am privileged as a broad-shouldered man who lives in a very safe place to never be subjected to any physical abuse, but I know that is by no means the case for others.)

I am, of course, tempted to 'arc up' and argue back, but long experience has shown that it never makes things better, and I think I'm becoming pragmatic and phlegmatic enough to seek the most productive solution. While meeting abuse with abuse might be momentarily more emotionally satisfying, in the long term rising above abuse is more satisfying.

If I see abuse of others, though, I will seek to step in to protect them: even if it's physical abuse and I need to step in physically. (Again, my age physique and gender privileges me in that, and perhaps also my appearance of having certain kinds of social power.)

I still want to try to understand why the abuser abuses - understanding is not condoning - but stopping the abuse in its tracks is the much higher priority.

[Gail]

There seems to be a time, Biblically, when a person will suffer. I don't have a Scripture handy but it seems to me that we are told that we WILL suffer persecution. 1 Corinthians 4:11,12 talks about Paul's sufferings.

At what point do we get to be blessed by abuse (like in the Beatitudes)? How does this happen?

[Gregory Matthews]

Most of us probably believe that the time will come when we will be abused based upon our religious beliefs and laws that will allow/require us to be  punished for our beliefs.  At such a time we will have no recourse other than to accept what we are given.

But, in a present time were we are not abused based upon law and the law gives us protections from that abuse, we are well advised to accept the protections that the law provides us and potentially foolish if we do not.

It is important that Christ's advice to carry a Roman coat for 2 miles when only required to carry for 1 mile (pardon my modernization of the text) was based upon the law in effect at that time.  That advice should not be used to tell people that they should accept abuse that violates that law and refuse to accept the protections that the law gives them.

I say again:  Every human is a valued creation of God and therefore should not allow that creation to be degraded by abuse when that abuse can be prevented.

[CoAspen]

Quote

I say again:  Every human is a valued creation of God and therefore should not allow that creation to be degraded by abuse when that abuse can be prevented.

Thanks, GM for your comments. They are very important as I believe that all to often the Bible has been used to overlook abuse or down play such. We do God a deep, deep disservice when attempting to use the Bible in any way that justifies abuse....of any kind.

[CoAspen]

Gail,

I'm not quite sure what your original intention was for the topic. Several different words/ideas are being use, abuse, suffering, etc, as if they all have the same meaning. A person in pain suffers from such, but they are not being abused in the physical sense of someone perpetrating that on them, such as a severe sickness. Christ  on the cross experienced both pain, suffering and abuse at the hands of others.

Many religions have taken the 'sufferings' of Christ and other words of His to mean followers of Christ must suffer  in order to find salvation or persevere through. It has long been a part of SDA teachings/belief as well. At times it has been suggested that without 'suffering' our spiritual experience may be lacking or not up to par. I find that to be contrary to Gods desires for His children. Do we make our children or others suffer so that they will appreciate life better? If not, then why would we expect God to desire that for us? I have this feeling that it, suffering, has become a part of our effort in finding salvation, ie, works.

My belief is that Christ simply pointed out the obvious about life, there will be pain and suffering, but that the believer can find peace of mind in knowing that one day it will all end. The individual can work through the pain and suffering by putting it in Gods hands. I have many a Cancer patient say that very thing. Their faith it what gives them comfort.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

I previously said:

Most of us probably believe that the time will come when we will be abused based upon our religious beliefs and laws that will allow/require us to be  punished for our beliefs. 

We should never say that the fact that we are persecuted for our religious beliefs indicates that we have correct religious beliefs.

The Jehovah's Witnesses claim that their persecution because of their religious beliefs is a sign that they are correct in their belief.  I disagree with that position.

[Gail]

Yes, that is all true. That is not what I am talking about and thank you, CoAspen, for asking for clarification.

As I thought I said in the OP, I had been meditating on Christ's suffering and His words. I believe there IS persecution that is brought upon one's self for reasons that are NOT biblical. There is no reason to invite persecution, say, for creating a time of trouble before the time of the real one. Or for needling nor nagging. If a person behaves without discretion then s/he will reap what is sown.

But as I was thinking about Jesus' case, He was tortured and killed without just cause. I had the idea that His example would be for those who have undergone and still are undergoing torture and sacrifice and who have no say in the matter nor power to withstand. At first I carried the thought over to those of the early church. Then those in the Dark Ages. And it still goes on today, note the Christians who cried out the name of Jesus before the ISIS guys beheaded them.

I saw Jesus fortitude and patience and attitude as being an example to those who would be called to suffer for His name. And we might get a turn yet! In our land with the freedoms we have there is much we can safely protest. But Jesus made it clear that not only those who suffered for Him WOULD suffer in this life, but that they also would be at peace, even happy, for doing so. Paul got that; it was his experience, too.

Jesus was mocked for not defending Himself. And since He was innocent He could have appealed to Pilate. Pilate was convinced of His innocence. What the Jews were doing was not only inhumane but illegal.

We could argue that it was Jesus' purpose, his raison d'etre, to die that horrible death. But I see something more, and perhaps my mind is working overtime. I see Him again entering into the worst situation any of us could enter and fellowshipping with us at the very highest level of suffering for sin. He takes on the role of the supreme Servant. He was only One of thousands who died innocently because no one showed up to fight for their rights.

He had all the power of heaven at His disposal, and He refused it. He will have His justice, but it will only come to realisation way after the fact.

And He calls the suffering ones blessed. 

It was just a big, incredible thought.

[LifeHiscost]

5 hours ago, Gail said:

There seems to be a time, Biblically, when a person will suffer. I don't have a Scripture handy but it seems to me that we are told that we WILL suffer persecution. 1 Corinthians 4:11,12 talks about Paul's sufferings.

At what point do we get to be blessed by abuse (like in the Beatitudes)? How does this happen?

I'm not sure Gail, what you mean when you say, "abuse (like in the beatitudes)". I've always seen the beatitudes as shining forth as positive Truth.

 

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

4:23-25 Wherever Christ went, he confirmed his Divine mission by miracles, which were emblems of the healing power of his doctrine, and the influences of the Spirit which accompanied it. We do not now find the Saviour's miraculous healing power in our bodies; but if we are cured by medicine, the praise is equally his. Three general words are here used. He healed every sickness or disease; none was too bad; none too hard, for Christ to heal with a word. Three diseases are named; the palsy, which is the greatest weakness of the body; lunacy, which is the greatest malady of the mind; and possession of the devil, which is the greatest misery and calamity of both; yet Christ healed all, and by thus curing bodily diseases, showed that his great errand into the world was to cure spiritual maladies. Sin is the sickness, disease, and torment of the soul: Christ came to take away sin, and so to heal the soul.
  

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

[Gail]

There is a beatitude that says that blessed are those when men shall revile you and persecute you. Just trying to wrap my brain around that.

[LifeHiscost]

2 minutes ago, Gail said:

There is a beatitude that says that blessed are those when men shall revile you and persecute you. Just trying to wrap my brain around that.

…22"Blessed are you when men hate you, and ostracize you, and insult you, and scorn your name as evil, for the sake of the Son of Man. 23"Be glad in that day and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven. For in the same way their fathers used to treat the prophets. ...Luke 6

  

be·at·i·tude

bēˈatiˌt(y)o͞od/

noun

noun: beatitude; plural noun: beatitudes

1. supreme blessedness.

   synonyms:

   blessedness, benediction, grace; More bliss, ecstasy, exaltation, supreme happiness, divine joy, divine rapture; saintliness, sainthood "the everlasting beatitude"

   • the blessings listed by Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount (Matt. 5:3–11).

     plural noun: Beatitudes; plural noun: the Beatitudes

 

I accept the recognition that if we are persecuted as a result of holding fast to the will of Christ, the eternal reward will so far surpass the brief discomfort in comparison on this earth, our faith in the promises will give us great peace, despite the persecution.

…164Seven times a day I praise You, Because of Your righteous ordinances. 165Those who love Your law have great peace, And nothing causes them to stumble. 166I hope for Your salvation, O LORD, And do Your commandments.… Psalms 119

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

[Gerr]

On 4/10/2016 at 9:41 PM, Gregory Matthews said:

Geerry asks what Ido about the SErmon on the MOunt?

 

Well, that is sometime thought to be a passage that extends over three chapters in Matthew.  Or it may be a short passage that begins each saying with the words : Blessed are . . ..

The majority of those blessings are related to spiritual matters.  The poor in spirit will have the kingdom of heaven.  Those who thirst for  righteousness will be filled. Those who are pure in heart will see God.  Those who are persecuted because of righteousness will have the kingdom of heaven.  Osthers relate to false accusations of evil.  Gerry, there is little here that relates to physical abuse.

Well, yes, in another passage Christ did tell the people that if they were required to carry the coat of a Roman {NOTE:  I am putting this in the terms an actual requirement.] they were to carry it twice as far as required.

Gerry, if you were thinking of such advice, you will not that Christ established a limit.  Christ did not tell them to carry the garment for the entire journey[ of the Roman.  Christ established a clear limit.

Gerry, abuse in not just one time and of short duration.  Abuse takes place in an ongoing situation.  People who abuse once, will continue to abuse, unless stopped.   Christ did tell people to "turn the check."  But, note that passage limits to turning the one other check.  Again, there is a  limit.

I will say again:  Every human being is a creation of God.  Not such human should have to tolerate abuse, even when n the name of God.

 

 

 

 

NIV84 | ‎Mt 5:39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 

[Gregory Matthews]

The verse you quoted mentions a one-time turning of the check--It says nothing about continued abuse and abuse is continued.

 

[LifeHiscost]

15 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

The verse you quoted mentions a one-time turning of the check--It says nothing about continued abuse and abuse is continued.

 

21Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?" 22Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.… Matthew 18

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

The idea that anyone should simply watch abuse, be abused, and count it a blessing to have continued abuse, would make me think that the God of Christians isn't interested in the welfare of His children.  I have absolutely no use for such a God.

[Gregory Matthews]

Life, you have raised an important point:

Yes, Christ said to forgive.

But, look at what Christ did not say.  Christ did not say to release someone from the consequences.

As a matter of fact, throughout the Bible there is a central theme that people face consequences.  One can forgive the abuser and still prosecute and send thatperson to prison. 

Certainly, the Christian may chose in some cases not to prosecute.  But, that is an individual choice and not a requirement.

Let me illustrate:  A church treasurer may steal church funds.  One consequence is that the treasurer should never again handle church funds.  Another consequence might be to send that person to prison.  There is no Christian requirement to do otherwise.

 

 

 

 

 

[Gerr]

Pam, how about Dachau, Treblinka, Auschwitz?

[Gerr]

1 hour ago, Gregory Matthews said:

The verse you quoted mentions a one-time turning of the check--It says nothing about continued abuse and abuse is continued.

 

One strike and you're out!