joeb Posted April 14, 2016 Posted April 14, 2016 I think part of the confusion on this thread is the conflation of abuse with persecution. To be persecuted for one's beliefs is not the same as someone being abused in a relationship between individuals who are not equal in power. The classic example of that is parent/child or husband/wife. I must agree with Gregory on this thread. Abuse is very harmful. It destroys lives in a way that nothing else can do. Persecution, on the other hand, is something that is recognized as a standing up for principle against a political power. To suffer persecution because of a willingness to stand up for what is right no matter what the cost is something that is not destructive to the soul or the psyche of the individual. In fact, I would say it is something positive. Abuse is never positive. It is always destructive to the individual who is on the receiving end. CoAspen and Gregory Matthews 2 Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted April 14, 2016 Moderators Posted April 14, 2016 Gerry, I have followed you for a number of years. While I have not always agreed with you, I have respected you. In my opinion, you post above is beneath your normal style. As I see it, your post twists both scripture and what I have said. You can do better. I hope that you do. Quote Gregory
LifeHiscost Posted April 14, 2016 Posted April 14, 2016 48 minutes ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said: The idea that anyone should simply watch abuse, be abused, and count it a blessing to have continued abuse, would make me think that the God of Christians isn't interested in the welfare of His children. I have absolutely no use for such a God. 16Again I say, don’t think that I am a fool to talk like this. But even if you do, listen to me, as you would to a foolish person, while I also boast a little. 17Such boasting is not from the Lord, but I am acting like a fool. 18And since others boast about their human achievements, I will, too. 19After all, you think you are so wise, but you enjoy putting up with fools! 20You put up with it when someone enslaves you, takes everything you have, takes advantage of you, takes control of everything, and slaps you in the face. 21I’m ashamed to say that we’ve been too “weak” to do that! But whatever they dare to boast about—I’m talking like a fool again—I dare to boast about it, too. 22Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they descendants of Abraham? So am I. 23Are they servants of Christ? I know I sound like a madman, but I have served him far more! I have worked harder, been put in prison more often, been whipped times without number, and faced death again and again. 24Five different times the Jewish leaders gave me thirty-nine lashes. 25Three times I was beaten with rods. Once I was stoned. Three times I was shipwrecked. Once I spent a whole night and a day adrift at sea. 26I have traveled on many long journeys. I have faced danger from rivers and from robbers. I have faced danger from my own people, the Jews, as well as from the Gentiles. I have faced danger in the cities, in the deserts, and on the seas. And I have faced danger from men who claim to be believers but are not.c 27I have worked hard and long, enduring many sleepless nights. I have been hungry and thirsty and have often gone without food. I have shivered in the cold, without enough clothing to keep me warm.....2 Corinthians 11 OTOH one can always revert to road rage. The moment I choose to vent my anger, I lose the opportunity to reveal Jesus' character. 34But Jesus was saying, "Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing." ....Luke 23 47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. ....John 12 God is Love!~Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted April 14, 2016 Members Posted April 14, 2016 1 hour ago, Gerry Cabalo said: Pam, how about Dachau, Treblinka, Auschwitz? what about them? The prisoners had no options for amelioration of the abuse they suffered. phkrause 1 Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted April 14, 2016 Members Posted April 14, 2016 22 minutes ago, LifeHiscost said: OTOH one can always revert to road rage. The moment I choose to vent my anger, I lose the opportunity to reveal Jesus' character. there is a time and a place for anger... Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
Administrators Gail Posted April 14, 2016 Author Administrators Posted April 14, 2016 1 hour ago, joeb said: I think part of the confusion on this thread is the conflation of abuse with persecution. To be persecuted for one's beliefs is not the same as someone being abused in a relationship between individuals who are not equal in power. The classic example of that is parent/child or husband/wife. I must agree with Gregory on this thread. Abuse is very harmful. It destroys lives in a way that nothing else can do. Persecution, on the other hand, is something that is recognized as a standing up for principle against a political power. To suffer persecution because of a willingness to stand up for what is right no matter what the cost is something that is not destructive to the soul or the psyche of the individual. In fact, I would say it is something positive. Abuse is never positive. It is always destructive to the individual who is on the receiving end. Persecution can happen through no fault of the believer. People can be persecuted for being witches or gay or crippled. Being persecuted for one's beliefs is still abuse. LifeHiscost and GayatfootofCross 2 Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
LifeHiscost Posted April 14, 2016 Posted April 14, 2016 25 minutes ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said: there is a time and a place for anger... Is this perhaps, one of those times? http://insider.foxnews.com/2016/04/13/woman-pulls-out-gun-during-road-rage-fight-tampa-florida-viral-video God is Love!~Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted April 14, 2016 Members Posted April 14, 2016 1 hour ago, LifeHiscost said: Is this perhaps, one of those times? http://insider.foxnews.com/2016/04/13/woman-pulls-out-gun-during-road-rage-fight-tampa-florida-viral-video well, that was 4 minutes of my time wasted watching the above... the video had nothing to do with abuse. Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
Moderators Gerr Posted April 14, 2016 Moderators Posted April 14, 2016 11 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said: Gerry, I have followed you for a number of years. While I have not always agreed with you, I have respected you. In my opinion, you post above is beneath your normal style. As I see it, your post twists both scripture and what I have said. You can do better. I hope that you do. Greg, I raised honest questions and that's your answer? Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted April 14, 2016 Moderators Posted April 14, 2016 10 hours ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said: what about them? The prisoners had no options for amelioration of the abuse they suffered. The point is that God seems to have stood by while His children were abused to the nth degree. He stood by when His Son was abused to the fullest that Satan could inflict. rudywoofs (Pam) 1 Quote
Administrators Gail Posted April 14, 2016 Author Administrators Posted April 14, 2016 Yes- how do we make sense of all that? We know that God loves us Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
CoAspen Posted April 14, 2016 Posted April 14, 2016 Is the question, God doesn't help us out all the time, so why should we help others?? GayatfootofCross 1 Quote
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted April 14, 2016 Moderators Posted April 14, 2016 Gerry, I will be the first to say that I have typically seen you as asking honest questions. That is O.K. You also said: Quote One strike and you're out! I understood the above to be a statement, not a question, that twists both my position and that of Scripture and is full of sarcasm. That may not have been your intent. But, that is how it came across to me. Quote Gregory
LifeHiscost Posted April 14, 2016 Posted April 14, 2016 15 hours ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said: well, that was 4 minutes of my time wasted watching the above... the video had nothing to do with abuse. So you're satisfied the woman pulling the gun to protect the guy that had just been physically punched to the ground was exercising reasonable return. How does that square with this. 38"You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.' 39"But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40"If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.… Matthew 5 God is Love!~Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted April 14, 2016 Members Posted April 14, 2016 59 minutes ago, LifeHiscost said: So you're satisfied the woman pulling the gun to protect the guy that had just been physically punched to the ground was exercising reasonable return. How does that square with this. 38"You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.' 39"But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40"If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.… Matthew 5 LHC, why are you trying to provoke an argument with me? Why are you stating what you *think* I'm "satisfied" with, when I bluntly stated that the video had nothing to do with the topic? The men in the video were behaving like a couple of immature boys at school recess. Perhaps every so often along a road there should be a wooden post placed off to side where men can get out of their vehicles, go unzip their pants, and mark their territory. GayatfootofCross, Tom Wetmore and phkrause 3 Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
LifeHiscost Posted April 14, 2016 Posted April 14, 2016 1 hour ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said: Perhaps every so often along a road there should be a wooden post placed off to side where men can get out of their vehicles, go unzip their pants, and mark their territory. Whatever. Your solution is funny. Worth at least a couple of chuckles. God is Love!~Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Moderators Bravus Posted April 15, 2016 Moderators Posted April 15, 2016 Lots of confusion in this thread, though mixed with lots of interesting discussion. I think joeb is right that persecution and abuse have been intertwined somewhat - there are large overlaps anyway, but perhaps believers are called on to faithfully endure persecution but not abuse? I pointed out earlier that there was confusion between abuse directed at oneself and that directed at others. I think I have also been confused between, say, 'abuse' posted on a discussion board, or yelled out the window of a passing car, and on-going abuse suffered in the workplace or the home. Gregory has been talking about the latter while many responses have been in relation to the former. Quote Truth is important
Members phkrause Posted April 16, 2016 Members Posted April 16, 2016 On 4/14/2016 at 10:08 PM, Gerry Cabalo said: Pam, how about Dachau, Treblinka, Auschwitz? Gerry I don't believe she's saying what you think she's saying! But I could be wrong? As far as those concentration camps are concerned, my father never was in them, he was in a few others. Before he died a number of years ago he forgave the germans/nazi's who had a part in abusing him. rudywoofs (Pam) 1 Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Moderators Gerr Posted April 16, 2016 Moderators Posted April 16, 2016 On 4/14/2016 at 8:28 PM, Gregory Matthews said: The verse you quoted mentions a one-time turning of the check--It says nothing about continued abuse and abuse is continued. Gerry, I will be the first to say that I have typically seen you as asking honest questions. That is O.K. You also said: Quote One strike and you're out! I understood the above to be a statement, not a question, that twists both my position and that of Scripture and is full of sarcasm. That may not have been your intent. But, that is how it came across to me. Gerry's reply: Sorry if I came across as being sarcastic. No sarcasm intended. A question does not always end with a question mark depending on the context. You said, "The verse you quoted mentions a one-time turning of the check--It says nothing about continued abuse and abuse is continued." That is what prompted my "1 strike" remark. Apparently, I was not the only who understood you to mean that after turning the other cheek once, all other options are open because LHC quoted the 70x7 text. So what exactly did you mean and where did I twist scripture? The Sermon on the Mount as I see it, does not advocate passively enduring continuing abuse. Rather, it calls for a proactive response. When someone abuses me even after I've turned the other cheek, gone the second mile, Jesus said I am to pray for them, do good to them, so that by kindness and good works they may turn to glorifying our Father in heaven. The same thought is given in other places: ESV | Pr 25:21 If your enemy is hungry, give him bread to eat, and if he is thirsty, give him water to drink, 22 for you will heap burning coals on his head, and the LORD will reward you. ESV | Ex 23:5 If you see the donkey of one who hates you lying down under its burden, you shall refrain from leaving him with it; you shall rescue it with him. Quote
Robert Posted April 16, 2016 Posted April 16, 2016 On 3/27/2016 at 5:21 PM, Gregory Matthews said: Every person is a creation of God .... removed Quote
CoAspen Posted April 16, 2016 Posted April 16, 2016 Pride....interesting definition Obnoxious...another interesting definition annoying...definitions can be quite interesting Quote
GayatfootofCross Posted April 16, 2016 Posted April 16, 2016 1 hour ago, Robert said: On 3/27/2016 at 2:21 PM, Gregory Matthews said: Every person is a creation of God .... 1 hour ago, Robert said: I hear this error a lot. Adam and Eve were created in God's image after His likeness (see Gen 5:1-2). We are born in the likeness of fallen Adam (see Gen 5:3) It is the TRUTH Robert! God calls you to look upon all this way. Don't you know? In HIM ..We live and move and have our very being. Jesus settles the matter here.... “Be careful. Don’t think these little children are not important. I tell you that these children have angels in heaven. And those angels are always with my Father in heaven. Angels attend all children. Then abandons them at puberty? If you won't hear what others see as Gods Lovliness regarding all people on earth then at least hear what JESUS says May the Joy of the Lord be your Strength! Robert Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
GayatfootofCross Posted April 17, 2016 Posted April 17, 2016 I find it quite distressing when Christians do not see Every person has Jesus' face on it. Matt 25: 34-40 #His Image! Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
Moderators Gerr Posted April 17, 2016 Moderators Posted April 17, 2016 See how Jesus wants us to treat individuals in the thread - "Hell fire for calling someone a fool". Quote
GayatfootofCross Posted April 17, 2016 Posted April 17, 2016 I was saving this for another thread ive been working on regarding Gods loveliness but in relation to ... 1 hour ago, GayatfootofCross said: “Be careful. Don’t think these little children are not important. I tell you that these children have angels in heaven. And those angels are always with my Father in heaven. EGW wrote regarding this scripture ..." Angels of glory, that do always behold the face of the Father in heaven, joy in ministering to His little ones. Trembling souls, who have many objectionable traits of character, are their special charge. Angels are ever present where they are most needed, with those who have the hardest battle with self to fight, and whose surroundings are the most discouraging. And in this ministry Christ's true followers will co-operate." Desire of Ages 440 Wow! Coming from a hedonistic abusive home this applies to me. "And in this ministry Christ's true followers will co-operate. " Can we see Jesus in every person now? phkrause 1 Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
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