Off Shoots

[cricket]

I received an e-mail today about an off shoot of the SDA church. It concerned a group who call themselves the "Creation Seventh-day Adventists".

I've heard of the 1888 Group, Shepard's Rod, the "Remnant" and the Branch Davidians. What other groups are there? What are the teaching? How prevalent are they? Where are they? Of what should we be wary??

**Please, no generalities in your responses. I realize we should always be wary of stray teachings (as well as be wary of the traditional teachings). I'm interested in specific knowledge about these groups and groups similar to them.

[Gregory Matthews]

It is impossible to list all of the groups.

In many cases, it is a single SDA Chruch. In other cases, it is more of a denomination, or group of churches. In some cases the group is loosly tied together, and in othes, it is more closely tied together.

As to the Creation SDAs, if my memory is correct, this is more a single church group. I would have to chack that out. But, I heard of them several years ago.

[Nicodema]

Cricket, I'd never looked into this group before but if you Google the name "creation seventh-day adventist" you should be able to find the group's official website as well as other materials telling you what the group is about, its history, where it split off from the church, etc.

Here's two URLs to get you started:

http://7th-day-adventist.org/

http://7th-day-adventist.org/home.html

[cricket]

Indeed, it is impossible to list all the off shoots! Even so, I'll begin with at least this one. Then, as time permits, I'll look into as many more as are revealed to me.

Thank you, Nico for the urls. I hope to learn more, specific, information as I "surf'!

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Cricket,

I have been getting cassettes and now CDs from a friend of Denise's. First I got 2 tapes and then 2 CDs, the tapes were typical "You better get yourself ready" types of messages and then the last 2 CDs came with a noted asking us to "support this tithe worthy ministry" The name of this group is " The Raw Remnant ."

I listened to all the messages and there are some good points but it's all about self getting ready and if you don't do what they say, "you'll be lost." That phrase is used a number of times and it seems as though since they are not preaching the Love of God along with their message, that this is their compelling force.

You better or else is their gospel. It's sad to see people not realize their weaknesses and then point out others faults not considering theirs, all the while separating themselves from God's people; as faulty as we are. This Christ did not do.

Norman

[Jeannieb43]

I hear from the "Seventh-day Adventist Reform Movement" a lot.

I don't know who they are or where they got my name, but they must have an "in" with somebody who has Adventist church lists.

[cricket]

Although "it is impossible to list all of the groups," here are the ones we've identified so far:

• Seventh-day Adventist Reform Movement
• The Raw Remnant
• Creation Seventh-day Adventist
• The 1888 Group
• The Remnant
• Shepard's Rod
• Branch Davidians

Anyone know of any others? What do you know of them, i.e. how do they differ from the traditional SDA teachings?

[gina i]

I have heard of an offshoot called 'Hope International'.. A lady from our church is involved in it, well she doesn't go to our church anymore, actually. Another lady that's with her thinks our church is 'too worldly', heh.

I wish everyone could just stick together & remember what the message is about, rather than picking apart everything.

Probably not the response you were looking for, but just wanted to throw in my 2 cents

[stef]

From what I understand Ellen White wrote in opposition of division and branching off...We may or may not agree with what our congregations/conferences/divisions/general conference leaders have decided, but instead of focusing on what is wrong with our church, we should allow Christ to examine and reveal what is wrong with our own walk and surrender to His lead.

"No advice or sanction is given in the Word of God to those who believe the third angel's message to lead them to suppose that they can draw apart. This you may settle with yourselves forever. It is the devising of unsanctified minds that would encourage a state of disunion... There must be no separating [of the faithful from the church] in this great testing time" Selected Messages, vol. 3, p. 21; words in brackets added for contextual clarity).

[cricket]

Who is to say which organization--the "traditional" SDA church, or the "off-shoot"--is the one that is doing the separating?

When one follows the straight and narrow, and the other ninety-nine go astray, should it be said that the one is causing dissension among the troops? Or, is it the ninety-nine?

[Ellen]

I don't know if "reporting" on others serves a useful purpose but my mom was receving all kinds of extra-adventist material. One I know well was the minister who baptized me in the '40s, is a deep theological student and had a disagreement with the conference and decided to go on his own.

He teaches real adventist doctrines but since he receives tithes from people and runs his own organization he probably fits into the offshoot category. He has a mailing he called a "think paper" titled "Watchman What of the Night" which goes under the name of Adventist Layman's Foundation of Miss. Inc. and is in Arizona.

He mostly directs his material to adventists, doesn't really reach "outsiders" but still has quite a following.

[Ellen]

In reply about exactly who is separating, my mom was trying to impress me that same thing and i prayed about it. It is certainly true there is lots of questionable things going around in the formal SDA church.

One day I was reading 9 Testimonies on another topic and came across statements that were clear to me an answer to my query - stick together, unite, differences in doctrinal understanding aren't as important as going forward together as one.

Moving as a church to embrace new insights etc. and no one is to stand out as the gifted one who can understand God better than the rest.

The spirit of fellowship and unity was superior to being absolutely right and you better toe the line on that, brother, or else.

[Robert]

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Cricket said:

I realize

we

should always be wary of stray teachings (as well as be wary of the traditional teachings). I'm interested in specific knowledge about these groups and groups similar to them.

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Do you realize that all denominations since the original Christian Church are offshoots? So please do not think that this is God's remnant, last day church!

EGW states that the remnant occurs after "the shaking" caused by "the message to the Laodiceans"! That message is the "third angel's message" - justification by faith!

BTW...the 1888 group is not an off-shoot....They haven't separated themselves from the SDA denomination. I know Robert Wieland.....He is right about this denomination...the leadership rejected the 1888 message...especially justification by faith and the issue over "the law in Galatians."

Jack Sequeira took it further....Why tell the church that they rejected the gospel? Give them the gospel....

Rob

[cricket]

Do you realize that all denominations since the original Christian Church are offshoots?

Yes. And, by the same logic, the 1888 Group is an "off shoot"!

When I said that "we" should always be wary of stray teachings, I never intended that it was solely the SDA believer that should be wary. I meant that all people should be wary of anything that is different than what they believe, or have been taught to believe.

All people should examine other beliefs with a healthy dose of caution: be it the atheist who is looking into Buddhism, or the Seventh-day Adventist who is looking into Shepard's Rod.

Rob, you seem to be well acquainted with the 1888 Group. Can you please expound on their beliefs so that I, and others, might be more informed?

Chrys

[LifeHiscost]

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Robert said:

Give them the gospel....

Rob

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Would it be too much to ask, "Live them the gospel"?

[LifeHiscost]

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gina i said:

I have heard of an offshoot called 'Hope International'

I wish everyone could just stick together & remember what the message is about, rather than picking apart everything.

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Hi Gina,

You wouldn't happen to be connected in any way to Julio would you?

As to the above, I'm satisfied that Jesus hasn't chosen us to determine for others where they're suppose to be. Only to point them in the right direction.

Having once been closely associated with Hope before it became international, I found most of them to be highly motivated and devout in their effort to serve Jesus the best way they knew how. If they were being led astray it was facilitated by those who seemed to be most willing to freeze them out of the main body of believers.

[:"red"] "When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice." [/] John 10:4 NASB

[:"red"] "....Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." [/] Romans 14:5 KJV

Blessings!!

[LifeHiscost]

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Ellen said:

absolutely right

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[:"red"] "If I...know all mysteries and all knowledge... but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

if there is knowledge, it will be done away, For we know in part...but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away " [/] 1 Cor 13:2,3,8-10 NASB

[Robert]

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Cricket said:

And, by the same logic, the 1888 Group is an "off shoot"!

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Yes...but attempting to understand what the early Christian church understood in matters of faith.

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Rob, you seem to be well acquainted with the 1888 Group. Can you please expound on their beliefs so that I, and others, might be more informed?

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At the General Conference Session of 1888, E. J. Waggoner gave talks on the law and the gospel, showing that the central message of Galatians was justification by faith and that the law in Galatians was the moral law. His studies continued until Thursday, October 25. On October 17-25, while Waggoner was giving his lectures, Mrs. White delivered six discourses at the morning devotionals, speaking of the need to be connected with Christ. Her expositions gave a great deal of emphasis to justification by faith alone—an emphasis almost entirely absent prior to the 1880's. She spoke of the truth of justification by faith as having been rescued from "the companionship of error" and placed in its proper framework—meaning the Seventh-day Adventist framework, which stresses the law and the gospel.

In a nutshell the 1888 group maintains that the SDA Church, in the GC of 1888, rejected the doctrine of justification by faith based on the doctrine of "the 'in Christ' motif".

The solution? Repent and restore the "everlasting gospel"! I think that is their main issue.

Jack's view is that in order to repent and restore the gospel, one must know the gospel. Hence instead of telling the SDA church that they rejected the gospel, he preaches the gospel. I like his approach better, however knowing SDA history is important also.

[cricket]

Rob,

My senses are dull this morning. Does your post say that the current SDA church teaches that our justification comes strictly from Christ and our faith in Him is not required? Or, is it saying that SDAs teach justification comes from faith AND keeping the commandments?

I'm really confused at this point. It is quite possible that I don't understand the SDA teachings either.

Chrys

[Robert]

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Cricket said:

Does your post say that the current SDA church teaches that our justification comes strictly from Christ and our faith in Him is not required?

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By Christ's doing and dying He justified "all men" unto life! [see Romans 5:18] Christ unconditionally justified "all men" in Himself!

The gift is complete...you can't add to what Christ did, in our humanity, some 2000 years ago...but you can rejected it. Faith is the mechanism by which one accepts the gift.

Go to Eph 2:6

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions [under the law's curse], made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)....

Please note, Paul doesn't say "by faith you have been saved" - no, he says by God's love...by His grace "you have been saved" [past tense]! Let's read on:

6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, [:"red"]in Christ Jesus[/]....

Again, please note that "in Christ Jesus" God raised "US" up with Him and seated "US" in the heavenly places! That "US" refers to our glorified humanity IN CHRIST JESUS. Read on:

7 in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

You, as an individual, didn't exist some 2000 years ago. Ah, but the humanity we all share - the corporate life of Adam - did exist. This is what Christ assumed at the incarnation. So God must come to you, through His Spirit, that He might show YOU the surpassing riches of His grace. Why?

Verse 8: For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast.

God comes to you and says, "In My Son I have rewritten your sinful history. "In Him" you stand perfectly righteous...do you believe? When you say "yes" (and keep saying it), Christ can now legally represent YOU (in Himself) before God's Holy law.

How does He do it? By presenting YOU by your glorified humanity that He took to heaven some 2000 years ago. BTW...it is this humanity you receive at the resurrection/translation.

verse 10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Here's where traditional Adventism goes wrong, again. They say, "Ah, we must keep the law", but verse 10 doesn't say that. It simply says the byproduct of faith is "good works"!

Still...you have bad works and hence "Fall short". In the judgment God doesn't take your pile of good works and weight them against your bad works. No, that's salvation partially by faith plus works. This is subtle legalism...the result of the rejection of the 1888 GC.

In the judgement God examines your good works!

Those who are standing on the platform of the gospel bear fruit free from self-righteousness and legalism. This proves that their faith is genuine.

Those who have knowingly accepted a perverted gospel produce "good works" with wrong motives. They secretly desire to "merit" salvation. These self-righteous fruits will condemn them in judgment for Christ cannot vindicate them "in Himself" when they are simultaneously trying to vindicate themselves.

Make sense?

Rob

[cricket]

Robert!

Yes! Your post makes perfect sense. Thank you for making it easier for me to understand. I was confused as to what it was you were saying concerning who taught what.

I have been an Adventist now for 13 years. Although I have heard that SDAs have been accused of being legalists, I have never truly heard any Adventist teach legalism. What I have heard taught is what you have described:

God promises salvation to those who will accept His Son's propitiation for [their personal] sin. Good works are a natural outpouring of our faith in Him, and His will working in us. It is not our faith that saves us, nor our works. It is solely the gift of God. Our faith, likewise, is a gift given to us by God.

I am interested in knowing if any traditional SDAs have been taught that our salvation comes to us through faith PLUS works.

Anyone?

Chrys

[Robert]

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Cricket said:

I have been an Adventist now for 13 years. Although I have heard that SDAs have been accused of being legalists, I have never truly heard any Adventist teach legalism.

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Good!

[gina i]

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LifeHiscost said:

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gina i said:

I have heard of an offshoot called 'Hope International'

I wish everyone could just stick together & remember what the message is about, rather than picking apart everything.

---

Hi Gina,

You wouldn't happen to be connected in any way to Julio would you?

As to the above, I'm satisfied that Jesus hasn't chosen us to determine for others where they're suppose to be. Only to point them in the right direction.

Having once been closely associated with Hope before it became international, I found most of them to be highly motivated and devout in their effort to serve Jesus the best way they knew how. If they were being led astray it was facilitated by those who seemed to be most willing to freeze them out of the main body of believers.

[:"red"] "When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice." [/] John 10:4 NASB

[:"red"] "....Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." [/] Romans 14:5 KJV

Blessings!!

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Haha, no. I didn't realize my last name would be displayed for all to see, changed that. I like to remain semi-anonymous, sheesh:)

I believe that people let themselves to be led astray, so I don't think blaming it on others is such a good thing. We all make our own choices, yes?

[cricket]

Who's blaming anyone?

[LifeHiscost]

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Cricket said:

I am interested in knowing if any traditional SDAs have been taught that our salvation comes to us through faith PLUS works.

Anyone?

Chrys

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Some people, both within the Adventist faith and those from other particular Christian beliefs, may make it somewhat ambiguous in the way they express their faith in salvation by grace.

In the Jewish culture of those having received Jesus as Lord, at the time the Scriptures were being written, rather than referring to salvation and the law being separate, salvation was understood to be by grace through faith, and the keeping of the law, or avoidance of sinful conduct, was understood to be part and parcel included in salvation.

It was not until later years under more western terminology that salvation by grace was followed by the word 'but', making it appear as an addendum to being saved. The Jewish mind was correct in seeing all that salvation offered included behavior wrought out in the life by the same Creator who made the first couple capable of living in perfect harmony with the eternal principles of our Father's commands.

[:"red"] "Therefore if any person is [ingrafted] in Christ (the Messiah) he is a new creation (a new creature altogether); the old [previous moral and spiritual condition] has passed away. Behold, the fresh and new has come!" [/] 2 Corinthians 5:17 AMP

[:"red"] "Thank God! Once you were slaves of sin, but now you have obeyed with all your heart the new teaching God has given you. " [/] Romans 6:17 NLT

Blessings!!