Islamic Leaders Release Statement as to Christians

[Gregory Matthews]

 

 

See:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2016/may/more-than-300-islamic-leaders-denounce-extremism.html?utm_source=ctweekly-html&utm_medium=Newsletter&utm_term=16245031&utm_content=438071431&utm_campaign=email

[Gregory Matthews]

To read The Marrakesh Declaration see:

NOTE:  It is quiteinteresting.

http://marrakeshdeclaration.org/about.html\

[Aliensanctuary]

Nice in theory, Muslims tolerating other religions, but does that work when they take over neighborhoods and produce many, many offspring by men impregnating multiple "wives" on public assistance. Plus, it's OK for Muslim men to rape infidel women but watch what happens when Mohammed is insulted. Great idea, the Marrakesh Declaration, but it's just a piece of paper that cannot change much of anything.

[Gregory Matthews]

 

 

. . . produce many, many offspring by men impregnating multiple "wives" on public assistance.

  And what documentation do you have for such to include the actual numbers?

 

 

 

Plus, it's OK for Muslim men to rape infidel women. . .

  And where does the Quran teach such?

[phkrause]

Exactly Gregory

[Samie]

Muslims are also born In Christ because God through His Son, the Lamb SLAIN from the foundation of the world, saved Adam the day he sinned. It simply follows that all his descendants are born In Christ because Adam was ALREADY In Christ when they were born.

[Aliensanctuary]

I'm not saying that the Quran teaches that it's OK for Muslim men to rape infidel women, that just what has been happening in Europe, according the news reports that I have read. Likewise for the article about Muslim immigrants taking over neighborhoods and having many welfare babies. I don't believe that this is occurring on a large scale in the USA, yet, but once the floodgates are opened and Muslims swarm in this country, we might expect that also.

The Marrakesh Declaration may very well be reasonable, but that piece of paper won't be able to control hostiles bent on conquest.

[Raphael]

Very obviously, this is a response to a particular development.. Not a constant and continual practice of initiative.

I'm more interested in that forecast after the world-wide downfall of communism that the next enemy of the free world will be Islam.. And as the conquest over communism.. Eventually this same victory will be granted over (radical) Islam.

[Gregory Matthews]

So, would you say htat same if you were to read an article about males, who happen to be SDA/Baptist/Catholic, raping women?

 

I'm not saying that the Quran teaches that it's OK for Muslim men to rape infidel women, that just what has been happening in Europe, according the news reports that I have read.

[CoAspen]

...we must have our enemies....otherwise.....

[8thdaypriest]

On 5/21/2016 at 5:29 AM, Gregory Matthews said:

 

Gregory,

It seems you are trying to believe there is a DIFFERENCE between Muslims in general and radicals who DO kidnap and rape women, by calling them "wives" - even for a day - which the Koran (as read by some) does allow for.  

The Koran (as interpreted by some) allows grown men to marry little girls or even use little boys for sex. 

The Koran absolutely does allow Muslims to LIE to non-Muslims, in order to quiet their fears, or to manipulate them.  Any lie to further the goals of Islam is acceptable.  So how can non-Muslims trust ANYTHING they say. 

Mohamed absolutely taught the overthrow of every non-Muslim culture and religion - by violence where ever necessary.  In this country they will immigrate and populate UNTIL the day they can exert power to take over.  It's happening in Europe. 

I recommend the New York Times bestseller, "The Politically Incorrect Guide to ISLAM and The Crusades". 

[Gregory Matthews]

Rachel:

I have read the Quran, all of it, which is probably more than  many here have done.  Much that is said about what the Quran teaches is simply false or misunderstood.  You tell me that the Quran teaches X.  O.K.  Cite the chapter and verse.  [Yes, I know that the Arabic uses other terms of the English chapter and verse.]  AS the Christian Bible, the Quran is divided into chapters and verses.  You cite and we can discuss.

As a matter of fact, the radical elements of Islam base some of the teachings that you cite on other religious writings that exist and are outside of the Quran.  The Quran is the ultimate standard.  Not t hose writings.

 

[8thdaypriest]

22 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Rachel:

I have read the Quran, all of it, which is probably more than  many here have done.  Much that is said about what the Quran teaches is simply false or misunderstood.  You tell me that the Quran teaches X.  O.K.  Cite the chapter and verse.  [Yes, I know that the Arabic uses other terms of the English chapter and verse.]  AS the Christian Bible, the Quran is divided into chapters and verses.  You cite and we can discuss.

As a matter of fact, the radical elements of Islam base some of the teachings that you cite on other religious writings that exist and are outside of the Quran.  The Quran is the ultimate standard.  Not t hose writings.

 

Gregory, you make it sound as if Mohamed's writings are acceptable.  You do realize he was visited by a demon (if not the Evil One himself). 

MARRIAGE TO CAPTIVES

"If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with them, then only one, or a captive that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice."  (4:3)

"O Prophet!  Lo!  We have made lawful unto thee thy wives unto whom thou hast paid their dowries, and those whom thy right hand possesseth of those whom Allah hath given thee as spoils of war, and the daughters of thine uncle on thy father's side, and the daughters of thine aunts on thy father's side, and the daughters of thine uncle on the mother's side and the daughters of thine aunts on the mother's side who emigrated with thee, and a believing woman if she give herself unto the Prophet and the Prophet desire to ask her in marriage--a privilege for thee only, not for (the rest) of believers (33:50). 

There were many such convenient prophecies in the Qur'an.  Allah even commands Muhammad to marry the comely divorced wife of his adopted son (33:37).

BEATING WIVES

"Good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded.  As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them" (4:34).

CHILD MARRIAGE

"If you are in doubt concerning those of your wives who have ceased menstruating, know that their waiting period shall be three months.  The same shall apply to those who have not yet menstruated" (65:4)

The only way a man could have a wive who had "not yet menstruated" would be if she was a child bride.  Muhammad himself "married" Aisha when she was six years old, and consummated that "marriage" when she was nine.

"The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property--either as a child, a wife, or a concubine--must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men."  Winston Churchill

FOUR MALE WITNESSES OF RAPE

"Why did they not produce four witnesses?  Since they produce not witnesses, they verily are liars in the sight of Allah" (Qur'an 24:13). 

Allah commanded four male witnesses in cases of sexual misconduct.  The Prophet was told this after his favorite wife Aisha was accused of adultery.  Her accusers could not come up with the requisite four.  And all four men must have witnessed the act.  Convicting a man of rape, is almost IMPOSSIBLE in Muslim countries, regardless of other evidence. 

All the quotes and references I copied from the book I recommended.  I DID say "as interpreted by some".  Some of Muhammad's sayings can be interpreted different ways (just like some passages of the Bible) and of course there are the books of the Prophet's sayings, as remembered by his immediate followers.  Those also are open to some interpretation - just like passages from the letters of Paul.

[Gregory Matthews]

I plan to respond.

 

Thanks for your response.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Rachel:

I am checking your citations from the Quran.

1) Your citation from 4:3: The word "captive" that you have quoted is NOT in that approved English translation of the Quran that I am reading.  It appears to me that you are NOT reading from any approved translation of the  Quran. and are actually reading  from some other work in which the word "captive" has been inserted. 

In addition, 4:4 is of value.  In this verse the men are told that they have an obligation to give the women whom they marry their dower.  In 4:2 the mene are clearly told that they MUST retore toorphans, when they reach of age, their property.

In context, these verses clearly are giving women more rights than they typically had in the society around them.

  2) 33:50;  Again, you have quoted words that are NOT in the Quran.  I suspect that you have never read the Quran and are taking material at face value from some other source.

3) 4:34;  As with the above, your citation is only a selected part of the verse.  But, in this case, what you have cited is far from what is actually said.  To only reference a part of the authorized comment on this verse, on school of thought in Islam teaches that this verse actually teaches that women are partners with men.

4) 65:4;  Again, your citation differs substantially from what is actually said in the Quran.  In addition, the authorized commentary onthis vers differes from what you have said.

5a0 24:13;  This was explained as a very specific situation.  It was a situation where the actual act was very public.  It was a situation where there were certainly more that four males who would have seen what actually happened.  But, certain people spread gossip and falsely accused.  But, out of all that had witnessed the actual event, four could not be found to testify to the sinfull act that was accused.  The situation was different from what you have suggested.

Rachel:   My advice to you is:  If you are going to tell us what the Quran teaches, at least have read the Quran and an authorized statement as to the meaning of that verse.

 

 

[Geoarrge]

This might clear up some confusion: five different English translations of the Quran, in parallel.  Probably about as good as you can get without learning to read Arabic. (http://www.prophetofdoom.net/Qurans.Islam) 

Regarding 4:3 and the other passages with the phrase, It's clear that Those whom your right hands possess is understood by the translators to be a poetic euphemism for captive.

Regarding 65:4, it's clear enough that it can be read to refer to immature brides-- The Noble Qu'ran  notes it explicitly and Ahmed Ali's use of "...not menstruated yet" also indicates that view. 

 

 

[LifeHiscost]

On 6/4/2016 at 2:39 PM, Gregory Matthews said:

Rachel:

I have read the Quran, all of it, which is probably more than  many here have done.  Much that is said about what the Quran teaches is simply false or misunderstood.  You tell me that the Quran teaches X.  O.K.  Cite the chapter and verse.  [Yes, I know that the Arabic uses other terms of the English chapter and verse.]  AS the Christian Bible, the Quran is divided into chapters and verses.  You cite and we can discuss.

As a matter of fact, the radical elements of Islam base some of the teachings that you cite on other religious writings that exist and are outside of the Quran.  The Quran is the ultimate standard.  Not t hose writings.

 

After reading much of your defense of those who see others than Jesus as rightful Master of their eternal welfare, I'm beginning to wonder Gregory, who are you representing as being a chaplain for in the past and do you place any stock in the reality of this claim below.

10"You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me. 11"I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.…Isaiah 43

Thank you for your response.

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

[Gregory Matthews]

Life:  God is a God of truth.  We do not honor God when we misrepresent another.  Whether it is the Roman Catholic Church, the Islamic religion, Wicca or any other group we must be careful to be truthful in what we say about them.   

I happen to have a great deal of respect for Rachel.  As I see her, typically she is very careful in what she says.  But she missed the boat on this one.  She made a mistake, which all of us can do and I also do it at times.  If you are going to make a statement as to what the Quran says, you should quote it accurately.  This means that in honesty you should quote from an authorized (approved) version.  It means that you should quote in context.   It means that you should not be selective and only quote part of a verse, unless you indicate that you have done so.  RAchell's mistakes included all of these.

Again, I consider her to generally e a careful student who believes what she says.  I do not attribute in any sense dishonesty on her part.  But, she missed the boat on this one and should be called on what she said.

Life, if you think it is acceptable to God to allow such statements as she made to go unchallenged, that is your right to so believe.  [NOTE:  I do not know what you actually believe and therefore I am not saying that you believe this.]  But, I simply say that God is a god of truth.  And, in my understandng of God, it is not acceptable.

IT very well may be (?) that what Rachel said is what some groups within Islam believe and teach.  I would not challenge such.  I might ask for documentation.  If that is true, I would think that such documentation could be provided.  But, that documentation would come from sources that are outside the quran.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Geoarrge:  Thank you very much for bringing these parallel translations to our attention.  I have learned something as I did not know of these.  Yes, I thought that there were probably other translations.  But, I did not know of a parallel translation.

I find it of interest that the five translations listed in the parallel version that you cited seemingly does not include THE HOLY QURAN, which is the one that I take as authorative.  The one that I am using is the translation that was selected by a large Islamic group in Denver as being the one that was the best English translation and most suitable for representating the Islamic view.  That included both the translaton into English as well as the included commentary.  [NOTE:   This translation includes the Arabic, the English and an approved commentary on the individual verses.]  It is a large book of more than 2,000 pages.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Let us take a look at 4:3 in the translations that Georrage has provided us:

AA uses the word "captive" in a manner that presents it as part of the text.  In this example, Rachel would be justified in what she said.  However, it is always good to cite the actual translation.  This is true for citations of the Bible.  There is a large difference between the KJV and The Living Bible.  The KJV is more formally accurate than is The Living Bible    which is a dynamic translation.  It should also be said that Biblical passages speak to the issue of captive women becoming married to their male captors.  E.G.  What we say about Islam on this point may also be said about the Biblical record.

NQ paces "The captives and slaves" into ( ).  this is a common way of saying that the translators have entered into the text an inter[retatopm that may (?) go beyond the actual translation.

PK  Uses the phrase ". . . that your right hand posses,. . .."   One might conclude that it covers captives.  I suggest that it covers more than captiaves.  In any case, this phrase does not specificly say "captives" and it is simply an interpretation to say that it  does.

SH  see what I said on PK.

YU see what I said on PK.

3. AA If you fear you cannot be equitable to orphan girls (in your charge, or misuse their persons), then marry women who are lawful for you, two, three, or four; but if you fear you cannot treat so many with equity, marry only one, or a maid or captive. This is better than being iniquitous.

NQ And if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphangirls, then marry (other) women of your choice, two or three, or four but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one or (the captives and the slaves) that your right hands possess. That is nearer to prevent you from doing injustice.

PK And if ye fear that ye will not deal fairly by the orphans, marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four; and if ye fear that ye cannot do justice (to so many) then one (only) or (the captives) that your right hands possess. Thus it is more likely that ye will not do injustice.

SH And if you fear that you cannot act equitably towards orphans, then marry such women as seem good to you, two and three and four; but if you fear that you will not do justice (between them), then (marry) only one or what your right hands possess; this is more proper, that you may not deviate from the right course.

YU If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Geoarrage: I will suggest that the parallel translations that you have provided us raise an interesting  question.

There are many translations of the Christian Bible.  WE generally classify them into formal translations and dynamic translation.  [NOTE: some add a third "paraphrase:" as a separate category which others include in the dynamic category.]

Can the same be said in regard to the five (5) parallel translations that you have provided?  If so, which are formal and which are dynamic.?  Do you know?  I think it would be helpful to know.

[Outta Here]

Quote

Second, extremism thrives through poor interpretation of religious heritage that does not compromise between Islam and nationalism.

"The first thing that must be done in order to overcome radicalism and terrorism is to be honest,” said Yahya Cholis Staquf of the Nadhlatul Ulama National Board. “There may be elements from Islam that are used as a basis or justification for hardline groups to carry out their actions."

To be fair, it's not an issue as to what the Quran teaches, but rather it's an issue as to what it's followers do with their own interpretation: same goes for Christianity--take the Sabbath for example, what percentage of Christians interpret the Sabbath as no longer valid (some even go as far as saying that Sunday is the Sabbath)?

 

[Gregory Matthews]

I would say that both are issues and a distinction must be made.  When making this distinction  it must be acknowledged that the group under discussion may not even be a majority within the group.

  

[8thdaypriest]

The LORD commanded Israel, concerning captive virgins, that Israelite men could take them as wives.  Yes - they gave them a month to grieve the death of their families.  And yes - they could never divorce them.  But still - they COULD take them as wives.  And there is no mention that the captive women had any choice in the matter. 

It is my understanding that Mohammad drew from the OT and Moses when writing the Qur'an. 

[8thdaypriest]

I have a lot of respect for you also Gregory.  I agree that accuracy is needed when analyzing other religions or teachings. 

You cited the "authorized" version of the Qur'an.  That "authorization" is no more divinely inspired than our own "authorized" versions of the Bible. 

If the goal is to understand what the majority of adherents to Islam actually believe, then one would need to survey adherents the world over, dividing them into groups divided by differences of belief - just as we do with Christian denominations. 

No.  I'm not going to read the entire Qur'an.  I can understand why you would undertake such a project, as a Chaplin for many faiths.