Abu Ghraib revisited

[bonnie]

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fifiqueen said:

Just to clarify:

When I speak of America I speak of it's government and not it's individual's. Whilst I recognise that the government body is made up of individuals with differing options the government makes decisions and stands by them as a body or institution.

Britain is by no means exempt from it's part to play within the war in Iraq and torture of prisoners.

Everyone is entitles to expressing their opinion and viewpoint.

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Everyone should be allowed to express their opinion and viewpoint. That is what freedom is about. Nor do I think torture should be covered up, no matter who does it. But the continued hammering on only the bad, while deliberately ignoring anything good, any decent action, any courageous action, any action of restraint on the part of the majority of our fighting men and women, puts them and any others not of Iraqi descent at further risk. Tell me if you can, how many times have you heard a continued repeating of a courageous act, a kind act by one of our armed forces over there? Not a brief mention, but hammered into the ground. Or maybe you like so many just don't believe there are any.

If such a story were told here, would the posts go on for days and take up three pages? I think not. By the time you had reached the fifth post it would be a big yawn and off to bigger and jucier stories.

The US is far from perfect. I am not sure I have ever heard anyone claim it to be. Reading here many times I get the impression we as a country are suppossed to be. Not going to happen, never has been and never will be. But I doubt seriously if that is a place that will be found on this earth. Strangely enough, the US is the one place that is singled out for the harshest critism for not being this perfect place.

When I see those that live by the media's word for what is going on over there, demand from them, a full accounting of both sides of the story, the good with as much fervor as the bad. When I see what appears almost the same glee over a story of heriosm, restraint, kindness, as is shown over a story of abuse of power by the US or it's fighting force then I will believe in their honest sincere desire to be fair and balanced.

Those that abuse their position and power need to be stopped. But while stopping those that abuse nothing is gained by placing other's in harm's way to satisfy the need of some to keep it on the front page as long as they are being prosecuted.

So while you all hammer on all the evils, be fair, balanced and unbiased. Hammer on both the evil and the good, unless of course there are only evil men and women in the armed forces.

While you hammer on the abuses, hammer on the many acts of kindness by our men and women at the same time.

Bonnie

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[Dr. Shane]

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Could you explain the differences you see between Abu Graib and Guantanomo?

What are your thoughts on Guantanomo?

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Abu Ghraib was abuse of prisoners by a group of soldiers who belonged to an Army Reserve unit of MPs. The abuse these soldiers did was not approved or directed by the military. They were "goofing around" at the expense of the enemy. The military was already in the process of prosicuiting them for their crimes when the pictures were first published. Many involved with this have already been sentenced for their crimes.

I have a number of concerns about Guantanomo. The abuse at Guantanomo is approved and directed by military. From what I have seen, the abuse is better defined as harrassment than torture. That said, I have seen some reports of physical beatings to the point of breaking bones and causing a concusion. I don't like the idea of military abuse as a means of interigation because, unless it is really supervised, it can get out of hand quite easy. I also don't like the idea that so many are held so long without a hearing. There should be a panel of judges that review each prisoner's case every 3 or 6 months.

[John317]

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Shane said:

I don't see a problem with the original pictures being released as they were. I think that is a healthy part of having a free press.

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The original pictures should not have been printed at that time. I believe they should have been destroyed after the military punished the soldiers who took part in those crimes. And the information about what happened should have been disseminated later when it would not have caused so much destruction to American lives and to American policy. The people who originally printed those pictures for the whole world to see evidently didn't care what the results of their actions would be. Or perhaps they did, and the results were exaclty what they wanted.

It's great we have a free press but during times of national emergency and war, when American lives are at stake, the free press needs to use self-discipline, or their freedom could be taken away, as it rightly was by President Lincoln during the American Civil War.

No freedoms are absolute. I believe that the publication of these pictures at this critical time is an abuse of the freedom of the press. No one benifits by looking at them.

[Dr. Shane]

The right to a free press is much more difficult to take away now that the Internet has been invented. China is still trying to do that but free software makes it possible to get around the censoring firewalls.

[CyberGuy]

Fifiqueen

What you have to realize is that america is scarred from the images of the Twin towers in New York falling killing over 2700 people. Over 300 of those firefighters and police trying to save those trapped inside. We feel a rage inside. A rage that we will NEVER allow this to happen again. We will do whatever it takes to stop this from happening again.

What you see is the results of that rage. I am not defending the tortore but when you read of what the extremists do over in Iraq and Afghanistan to people who accept US aid you have to feel that some of the retailiation is justified.

I felt extreme rage over the attack at New York and I cheered the invasion of Afghanistan and the driving out of the Taliban and Al Qaida from their strongholds. I cheered the driving out of Saddam from power. At the Moment we are tying down a large portion of Al Qaidas resources in Iraq so that they cannot attack the USA again.

Torture or detention is a result of war. The fact that the USA was attacked on home soil without provocation and killed thousands of men women and children enrages the USA.

This war against Al Qaida will go on and so will the abuses that go along with any war.

Your country was not the one attacked on September 11 2001. Even the subway attacks on London cannot compare to those attacks.

When attacking the actions of the US military remember that we are remembering 911 and our rage is terrible and the US goverment and military will go to lengths now that they would not have done so before 911.

War is not pretty. Intel is gathered by whatever is the most effective means neccessary and that means some of the methods used by the USA military that is being attacked by some here. While I do not condone the methods used one has to consider that the US has not been attacked again and some of the intel gather to prevent furuther attacks were the very ones being attacked here as unthical.

If a little torture can prevent an attack that will kill thousands would you do it? It is a difficult dilimma. One should not be so hasty in their condemnations considering what is at stake here.

[Neil D]

Our country is a big country...Maybe in some parts they still feel rage, but in my part of the country, we feel a cold sadness.

We feel that our country is not doing what is right. We applauded when we went after the Teliban in Afghanistan. We wanted Bin Laudin.... But our goverment faultered....It decieved us intentionally and went after a rogue goverment that was already contained. Now, when we critize the goveremnet, we are reminded of previous administration and how they errored and how we need to continue to support the current administration... That is nothing more than just plain bull hockey. The american people are looking for a government that can be more precise in taking out the people responsible for the terrorism that caused us pain. We don't need to break other goverments, we need to support them in thier self determination.... We need to nurture those goveremnt so that as a society, they can grow...It is not being done now, and is woefully inadequate.

What bothers me, is that while I am critical of this administration, and that I believe that our goverment can and has done better in the past, I will be lamblasted as unpatriotic, and even traitorious...all the while, pointing out that our goveremnt can do better, and historically has done better....

To me, people who lable others as unpatriotic, are ignoramous pendamic twits...

[CyberGuy]

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What bothers me, is that while I am critical of this administration, and that I believe that our goverment can and has done better in the past, I will be lamblasted as unpatriotic, and even traitorious...all the while, pointing out that our goveremnt can do better, and historically has done better....

To me, people who lable others as unpatriotic, are ignoramous pendamic twits...

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For all the faults of President Bush one thing is certain. He has prevented further attacks by Al Qaeda on US Soil despite constant threats by Bin Ladin and his second in command to do so. So President Bush must be doing something right.

Despite the distastefulness of what is happening I do not care about the discomfort of those men at US prisons if they hold information about future attacks. I also do not want them released to possibly attack US servicemen or US citizens either. Rememember this Neil. We are at war and as the saying goes. All is fair in war. To win we cannot be held to rules of war that the other side does not abide by. After all technically that applies to nations not to terrorists who are labeled criminals by every country on the face of this planet.

Besides the so called torture is not physical torture but mental. Sleep deprivation and heat and cold is used to break the men?s wills that are resistant to interrogation. I am not against this kind of so called torture. Physical torture is known to be unreliable in any case. The US military is aware of this.

[David_McQueen]

This whole subject just shows how polarised we are as people.

Abu Graib cannot be excused under any circumstances, and I suppose when you are talking about this you dont expect to talk about other issues surrounding the war, whether it be the good done or the somewhat contestable links to 9/11.

It is interesting to note that many of the photos/videos of abuse in Iraq were posted by not too bright soldiers who decided that they would email or post stuff like this on the web in the first place. In humour??!!.

I dont think any kind of torture under any government is acceptable. Primarily as a Christian and secondarily as a citizen of that country.

[Neil D]

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For all the faults of President Bush one thing is certain. He has prevented further attacks by Al Qaeda on US Soil despite constant threats by Bin Ladin and his second in command to do so. So President Bush must be doing something right.

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I doubt that very seriously. Oh, sure, he has done things, and he gets the credit, but who in his position wouldn't do at least the very things that he has done? And possilby could have done better? Look at all the other things that he is responsible for, and you find that he has done , AT BEST, an average job...more likely below average.... What you are seeing, regarding his "protecting the country", is the results of the men and women below him, the ones who are not in the news, who really know how to do thier jobs. It is them that we should be grateful to and for, not Bush. Bush is taking credit for something that he hasn't really done at all...

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We are at war and as the saying goes. All is fair in war. To win we cannot be held to rules of war that the other side does not abide by. After all technically that applies to nations not to terrorists who are labeled criminals by every country on the face of this planet.

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yeah, and we have truely shown the true character of Americans....That they are a bunch of lazy, gluttonous, selfish people who will exert thier wills and economics policies to futher thier agendas of selfishness, greed and profits. That is how the world looks at us, and so far, we have fed right into that propoganda.

We are a nation of laws... If our laws can not protect us, nothing can. Sure, we have clandestine organizations, but they are used for the purpose of surgically remove select protagonistic people whose philosopy is not in keeping with the betterment of the world in general. But those people who are selected are judged by a group of people. Concider Hamas....The reason that they won a goverement is because they take care of thier people...They are seen in the palestine lands as a "Salvation Army" with food handouts, and fund raisers to gather more moneys to feed others...Ok, they have thier dark side, thier philsophy of the removal of Isreal, but so what??? In the eyes of the palestine person, they are taking care of ME..... The UN has failed the palestine people....

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Besides the so called torture is not physical torture but mental. Sleep deprivation and heat and cold is used to break the men?s wills that are resistant to interrogation. I am not against this kind of so called torture. Physical torture is known to be unreliable in any case. The US military is aware of this.

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You haven't looked at the pictures at the URL that I posted. Go look at them...Tell me again that what is shown is a "Mental Torture"? And while you are looking, tell me again what the red stuff is on the faces and arms and buttock of those prisoners...Oh, and tell me again why there are black and blue marks on the prisoners...My conclusion is that these prisoners are not be MENTALLY toruture... they are being physically tortured to death... You do know, don't you, that there are deaths at Abu Grahab

a direct result from the torture...? And yes, it has happened and it is a fact.

We are not living up to our ideal, to our philsophys...If we trade our security for the illegal physical toruture of individuals on a regular basis, it occurs to me that we, as a country, neither deserve nor have a right to the freedoms that we used to have 7 years ago.

[CyberGuy]

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Abu Graib cannot be excused under any circumstances, and I suppose when you are talking about this you dont expect to talk about other issues surrounding the war, whether it be the good done or the somewhat contestable links to 9/11.

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What happened at Abu Graib was not Sanctioned by the US Millitary. In fact those involved where punished and received prison sentences. Even the women in those pictures got a prison sentence of several years.

So that this issue is a moot point. It was not sanctioned by the military or governent and those leaders involved were punished and inprisoned.

[CyberGuy]

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You haven't looked at the pictures at the URL that I posted. Go look at them...Tell me again that what is shown is a "Mental Torture"? And while you are looking, tell me again what the red stuff is on the faces and arms and buttock of those prisoners

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This was not sanctioned by the US military and President Bush. Those leaders involved in this are now serving prison sentences.

So this so called Torture was by Rogue Military personel acting on their own for their own amusement. They did our country dishonor by their actions and they are paying for it.

Do not put this on Bush or the government. Every government will have rogue elements of their military who act on their own without government approval.

[CyberGuy]

Read this Neil

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0506/p03s01-usju.html

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-09-26-england_x.htm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4927273/

The US does not approve of this torture. Action was taken against those involved in the toture. Do not try to put this on Bush and the government for their own independant actions.

[bevin]

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 He has prevented further attacks by Al Qaeda on US Soil despite constant threats by Bin Ladin and his second in command to do so. So President Bush must be doing something right.
 

No necessarily. You are viewing this as an anti-American activity. You think Al Queida's goal is simply trying to attack Americans. That is one of their tactics, not their goal.

Nor is it actually GWB's goal. If it were, he would put efforts into reducing the threat - not be its #1 Recruiting Poster.

/Bevin

[Nicodema]

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John317 said:

Couldn't they have waited until after the war is over before printing those pictures for the world, and our enemies, the terrorists, to see?

Yes, this is indeed shameful... This is truly how America is disgraced.

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My friend, the DISGRACE is that these deeds were DONE AT ALL -- and the ones who have DISGRACED America are those who did them -- NOT that it has been made known to the world. Had these people not done these deeds, there would have been nothing DISGRACEFUL to be made known, whether now OR later.

The whole bogus facade of justification for this bogus war has been ripped off the face of our administration with these heinous acts. We claim to have a different way of life -- a better one. We claim to have a different kind of government/authority system -- a better one. We claim to be the humane leadership in the world, the humanitarians, the champions of civil and religious liberties -- and here we are doing THE EXACT SAME THINGS AS THOSE WE LABEL "EVIL" AND CLAIM OUR DUTY IS TO "STAMP OUT" IN THIS WORLD. Oh it is a DISGRACE all right -- and please, DO rail against it all you wish!! -- but rail NOT against those who brought the truth to light. Rail instead against those who committed these despicable deeds, for it is THEY who have shamed our country, not those who made the facts known.

[Nicodema]

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John317 said:

When America is at war, Americans should have enough sense and enough love of country not to put out pictures and information that do harm to their nation.

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When America is at war, Americans should have enough sense and enough love of country to NOT COMMIT HEINOUS ILLICIT DEEDS WHICH MAKE THEMSELVES INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM THE SO-CALLED "MONSTERS" THEY PRETEND THEY ARE "BETTER THAN" WHOM THEY MAKE THAT WAR UPON.

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John317 said:

... the pictures taken at Abu Ghraib are nothing compared to the pictures that could be published of Saddam's men at the same prison REALLY torturing and murdering thousands of people. Why don't they print the pictures of the REAL crimes?

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Excuse me? What planet are you on, Jim??? These ARE the "REAL crimes"!!!!!

We put a lot of time and effort and rhetoric and media buzz into "demonizing" Saddam Hussein. And considering what he is reputed to have done, it is no wonder. The man was from all reports a heinous tyrant, a cold, cruel, torturing despot. Now let me ask you this. Do we EXPECT a cold, cruel, torturing despot to act in ANY OTHER WAY than like a cold, cruel, torturing despot? No, we do not. Do we expect better things of those who hold themselves up as providing a SOLUTION to the cold, cruel, torturing despot -- a better way of life, of government, a better system? You better believe we do!! So which is the greater crime -- that a despicable tyrant behaved like one? Or that the supposed HERO turned out to be JUST AS BAD???

I'd say the REAL CRIMES are being brought to light in Abu Ghraib.

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John317 said:

Yes, this is indeed shameful... This is truly how America is disgraced.

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By these ACTS ... yes indeed. No argument there. But let's put the blame where the blame is due: upon those who DO these things ... not upon those who make it known.

[Dr. Shane]

We have bad people in America. We have serial killers, rapists, child molestors, kidnappers, thieves and arsonists. We would like to think these people do not represent us as a nation. However in the case of Abu Ghraib, some of these people got into the military and our enemies (and portions of our media) have put them forward as typical Americans.

[Neil D]

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The US does not approve of this torture. Action was taken against those involved in the toture. Do not try to put this on Bush and the government for their own independant actions.

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You haven't read your own articles, have you.? You can't see that in each article that you presented that the reporter keep attempting to give the readers hints that not all is as clean and neat as the military would like it...Shoot, even Lindi family said that she was a paper pusher and was ordered to stage a photograph, and it looks it too. What you don't realize is that either the US News and World Reports or the Time magazine reported that there was trememdous pressure from the higher ups to get information.

In a Authoritarian society like the military police, rogue elements do NOT come out unless the enviroment has been set up for it. And the military police are well aquainted with the Geneva convention....And yeah, I think the orders came from Rumsfield....At any rate, Abu Grahbe shows where the leadership failed the military man...

[Dr. Shane]

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the reporter keep attempting to give the readers hints

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That is a problem. The reporters arn't suppose to give "hints". Or, if they do, they need to come out and declare their bias so everyone knows where they are coming from.

[CyberGuy]

Neil

I am well aware of those peoples claims. How many murderers on death role claim they are innocent? Does that mean they are innocent?

How many Nazi war criminals said they were only following orders. Does that make it right? Does that absolve them of any responsibility for their actions? The same goes for the guards at this prison.

The pictures were very damning. Yes those in charge of the prison that the night it happened were diciplined as well. Yes some higher ups most likely got off. That is not the point. The US government did not order this. It was some people who were having some fun at the their prisoners expense. This does not make it right. They dishonored their country by this action and they have to pay. Right or wrong ordered to or not they did what they did and they enjoyed it. That is what is wrong about this whole affair. They enjoyed what they did.

[CyberGuy]

It is one of Al Qaidas goal to attack americans either the military in Iraq or civilians here in the USA. Some attacks have been defeated.

A group of Al Qaida operatives were arrested by Canadian Poice after going across the great leakes casing out american nuclear power plants.

A Terror plan was defeated when a key Al Qaida agent was arrested in Pakistan and handed over to american agents. They used many of those tactics such as sleep deprivation and hot and cold to keep him awake at night and loud music to prevent sleep to break him down and he gave up his terror cell that was planing a strike the US west coast using Islamic agents from Southeast Asia to fly a jet airliner into a tall building in LA. They were going to use shoe bombs to blow open the cockpit door.

How many people were saved by using the very so called torture that is now condemned here. This saved lives. It could be friends or yours or relatives that were saved by this kind of interrogation that is condemned.

[Dr. Shane]

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Quite honestly folks, I think this 'discussion' is more about poitics than 'moral outrage'!

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I must agree.

[Neil D]

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Where is your moral outrage???

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Mine is in the picture that were shown...

News reports of other torutures in place other than Abu Grahbe are showing up, Falujah comes to mind, et al...Gitmo has evidences of torture as well. This is NOT an isolated incident, but rather pressure from the top to get information NO MATTER HOW IT IS DONE... The leadership is loosing it's moral principles and creating an enviroment to allow others like Abu Grahbe to flurish...

And some of you JUSTIFY it, ...for what? Christianity? or is it patriotism? Which has presidence in your life, your pratriotism or your Christianity?

Because if you attempt to justify it in the name of Christianity, I will call you a hypocrite. Christinaty does not allow you to justify torture, ANY TORTURE, in Christ's name....

[Dr. Shane]

Carpet bombing killed many innocent civilians.

A nation's military should protect its boarder. That is its most basic function. President Wilson got us into Europe and world politics and we have never gotten out of it.

War is hell and hell has no bounds.

[Neil D]

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I can't take you serious until I can understand your position on all the other 'atrocities' of history. Start with the OT Bible.

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My pragmatic self will not allow me to do anything nor take a stand regarding the past...It is just that, the past. However, I can simpathize and scream at the current situation with the link in my first post. Those guys are not being "mentally" tortured. They are being tortured TO DEATH. Look at the photos, and see the blood on the necks of those men being tortured.

People are attempting to justify this outrage/torture. Some have said that it doesn't look as bad as it is... There are not welts, but bloody holes in skin, and not pin pricks, but holes that are as big as your thumb. Yeah, go ahead and attempt to tell me that this is 'mental' torture...just ain't so...There are pictures where men have knife cuts on the neck with blood and such...Is this 'mental' torture??? I don't think so....This is physical torture, and these men and women are being tortured to death... There have been reports of prisoners being killed in Abu Grahab, at the hands of the guards.

Some have attempted to justify this according to thier patriotism... Christians don't allow torture, period. Jesus said that if someone strikes you on the cheek, offer your other cheek as well. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you is the mantra for all Christians.... But this country, founded by Christians [as some neo-conservatives would like to have us believe] is committing atrocities on the same level as our enemies... We have sunk to thier level of war. We have abandoned our principles for a mess of potage....

Who was it that said that if we give up some of our freedoms for security will have neither.....?

That is my moral outrage, CoAspen...

[CyberGuy]

Neil

As Stated before these tortures were not condoned by the US government and these rouge military police were punished. So your rantings on torture is really unjustified unless it is politically motivated.