Abu Ghraib revisited

[CyberGuy]

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And some of you JUSTIFY it, ...for what? Christianity? or is it patriotism? Which has presidence in your life, your pratriotism or your Christianity?

Because if you attempt to justify it in the name of Christianity, I will call you a hypocrite. Christinaty does not allow you to justify torture, ANY TORTURE, in Christ's name....

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No war is waged in Christ's name. We are not that delusional. War is waged for various reasons and this one is waged in the name of self defence. Yes the US government is using methods of interrogation that it did not use in the past but that is because of 911. Bush has sworn that will never happen on his watch again and so far he has fulfilled that promise. We underestimated how far Bin Ladin would go. We had all the signs according to the 911 commission but they were ignored as we did not believe they would dare strike us at home like they did. Now we know better and we will use what ever weapon we have and the interrogation weapon is the most potent.

Now what happened at Abu Ghraib is terrible. That was torture that was uncondoned and had no purpose. No info was sought. Those men were tortured purely for the amusement of the US military guards. They were punished. Sure they claimed their superiors made them do it but they enjoyed what they did with relish and that makes them more than willing participants in these acts of torture. They will serve time in military prison for that.

[Dr. Shane]

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My pragmatic self will not allow me to do anything nor take a stand regarding the past...

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Abu Ghraib is history. It is in the past. Those that were involved have been put on trial and punished. This is not a situation that continues to exist.

[Dr. Shane]

I don't have a problem with the OT. God did send Israel into battle although I believe His prefered method was to use bees to drive out the inhabitants. However God can read minds and hearts. There are times when war is justified and God knows when they are.

Since we are no longer led directly by God, we must be much more hesitant to go to war. I think a free press has proved to be more of a blessing than a hinderance.

[Bravus]

CoAspen: It's a real and serious question, and deserves a real and serious response. Let's take it out of this thread, though.

In the context of this thread I just want to state the principle 'no atrocity ever serves as justification for any other atrocity'. Israel's old testament genocide doesn't justify the German's World War Two genocide, September 11 doesn't justify Abu Ghraib, Saddam's torture doesn't justify any other torture. Each atrocity is a thing unto itself, and should be something we as Christians condemn outright and without reservation whenever and wherever (and conducted by whomever), without playing games of comparison.

[Dr. Shane]

I think it has plenty of pazazz. It is just the answers are not as clear. It is much harder to discuss something God has not shed abundant light upon.

[Bravus]

We have a couple of attempts already...

[John317]

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Nicodema said:

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John317 said:

When America is at war, Americans should have enough sense and enough love of country not to put out pictures and information that do harm to their nation.

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When America is at war, Americans should have enough sense and enough love of country to NOT COMMIT HEINOUS ILLICIT DEEDS WHICH MAKE THEMSELVES INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM THE SO-CALLED "MONSTERS" THEY PRETEND THEY ARE "BETTER THAN" WHOM THEY MAKE THAT WAR UPON.

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John317 said:

... the pictures taken at Abu Ghraib are nothing compared to the pictures that could be published of Saddam's men at the same prison REALLY torturing and murdering thousands of people. Why don't they print the pictures of the REAL crimes?

The truth is that most of the pictures taken by Americans at the prison were staged and not of actual torture. For instance, the Iraqi man was not actually electrocuted, nor was the man in the photo actually bitten by the dog. That is not to say the photographs should have been taken or the actions staged. The people who did those things are rightly punished, but they need to be seen in proper perspective and compared with the acts of Saddam's people at the same prison. No, those were not the REAL crimes. That is like saying the real crimes in WW II were committed by the Americans and not by the Nazis or by the Japanese. (Come to think of it, that is precisely what some people do say, isnt it! It's called rewriting, or the reconstruction, of history. There seems to be a lot of it these days.)

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John317 said:

Yes, this is indeed shameful... This is truly how America is disgraced.

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By these ACTS ... yes indeed. No argument there. But let's put the blame where the blame is due: upon those who DO these things ... not upon those who make it known.

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I put the blame on the timing of the release of the photographs, also on the fact that they released them to the world rather than to the military. In so doing, they made way for the killing of many innocent Americans in retaliation. Or is that of concern to us any more?

[Dr. Shane]

Christ makes the difference and the muslems don't have Him. Imagine if the muslems had that attitude of Nicodema, Bravus, Niel, Coaspen and aldona. They wouldn't be killing people over a cartoon, would they? Look at what is now happening in Iraq between two sects of muslems. These people look for any reason to get angry and kill. While the press has the freedom to publish what it will, they ought to understand that. Muslems don't think like Christians. They don't turn the other cheek - ever.

[Nan]

Christians have a history of war based on differences between themselves too - the Northern Ireland story will still be fresh in the minds of those affected.

It is not adherence to any the dogma of any religion that will prevent such behaviour.

(And I am purposely not expanding on that last statement, assuming readers here can draw the obvious conclusions).

[Dr. Shane]

Well there are Christians by profession and there are Christians by conversion. I understand that some truely converted Christians have gone to war. However in the history of the world, I think most times war has been made in the name of Christ, it has been done by those who are professed Christians but not converted Christians. The names of the members I listed above I am assuming are converted Christians and thus reluctant to war.