Infants: Transgressors or not?

[Robert]

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[Robert]

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[Robert]

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[Robert]

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[Dave Watchman]

7 hours ago, Robert said:

James White maintained that Adventists had “no settled faith on this point,”and that, given that the Scriptures were silent on this topic, “no possible good” could come from such discussions.

James White sounds like a smart guy to me. And I'm a Calvinist as far as the doctrines of salvation go so I think that we're all picked by the Father from before the foundation of the universe.

So if Adolph Hitler's mother threw him off a bridge when he was 3 months old and a shark ate him, the Father would have foreknown him even before he was in the womb right? Hitler isn't going to make it into the Lamb's Book on a technicality. Is he?

"Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

[Robert]

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[Samie]

9 hours ago, Robert said:

Infants cannot be charged with transgression, not because they are not sinners (i.e., self-centered - the essence of iniquity), but because God's law cannot charge them with premeditated sin (transgression).  Transgression clearly requires a knowledge of the law either explicitly or implicitly. 

Legalism. Because of your belief in Augustine that people are born spiritually dead in sin and hence APART from or NOT IN Christ. And then you contradict yourself in the next paragraph, to wit:

9 hours ago, Robert said:

Therefore (and I stake my personal salvation on this) all infants who die before they reach the age of accountability will be in heaven.  Not because they are righteous in themselves, but because Christ has taken the initiative and saved the fallen, human race by His doing and dying. Thus Romans 5:18 (NASB)

Good, Robert seems to slowly disbelieve Augustine now. 

But then since you teach as you learned from Augustine, that infants are born spiritually dead in sin and hence NOT In Christ, when where they In Christ if they died at birth?

[BobRyan]

On 7/2/2016 at 8:15 AM, Robert said:

James White maintained that Adventists had “no settled faith on this point,”and that, given that the Scriptures were silent on this topic, “no possible good” could come from such discussions. White’s counsel did not, however, deter others from commenting on this subject. Uriah Smith suggested that the law had “no claim on infants; for they never transgressed it,” and thus, he believed that infants would be saved even though they “[died] in Adam” like the rest of humanity. Similarly,

Infants are born with a sinful nature that trends to evil - they need a Savior - and they have one. The reason they go to heaven is not because they do not need salvation or don't need the Gospel benefit of deleting the sinful nature -- the reason they go to heaven is that they have a Savior.

[8thdaypriest]

I have a picture of myself and my cousin, when I was about 3.  I had just taken my cousin's spoon, and was whacking her on the head with it. 

"For ALL have sinned."  "All" would include children. 

Sins of ignorance were "covered" by the continual morning/evening sacrifice (the blood of Jesus) UNTIL such time that they became "known". 

This whole debate concerning infants and children - and I would add - all ignorant pagans too, is SOLVED if the "second resurrection" is NOT for the judgment and punishment of those who knowingly rebelled during the 6000 years from Adam's sin to the SC.  (THAT judgment will take place @ at SC.)

If INSTEAD - the second resurrection (after the 1000 years) is for those who lived in ignorance (for whatever cause), then all infants, children, and ignorant pagans can be resurrected, then taught by the redeemed (priests) from the first resurrection, then CHOOSE whom they will serve (Satan or Christ) as king.  Those who CHOOSE Satan, will join (or support) the army of Gog/Magog.

This scenario is logical, and just.  It does not make God a manipulator - 1.  transporting infants and ignorant pagans into an eternal kingdom WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT, and 2.  manipulating their minds to bring them into harmony with that kingdom WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT. 

This scenario fulfills the Bible prophecies, though not all of the Ellen White prophecies. 

My website is prophecyviewpoint.com.  You can read my book "The 8th Day" for free.

Rachel Cory-Kuehl

[Samie]

If infants are born NOT In Christ then people start out their lives APART from Christ. 

So, when can a person be In Christ?  Most preachers will answer when  he PLACES his faith in Christ, or when he ACCEPTS Jesus as personal Savior, or do something to that effect.

But how can people, while APART from Christ, do the ACT of PLACING their faith in Jesus or ACCEPTING Him as personal Savior, when Jesus Himself said man -  APART from or NOT In Him - can do NOTHING? 

The fact that anyone has the capability to ACCEPT Jesus or PLACE his faith in Him is proof enough he can do SOMETHING and therefore  he is NOT apart from but is In Christ. Hence, people start out their lives In Christ.

Consequently, I tell people to believe they are In Christ (grace-based salvation) INSTEAD of telling people to believe so they can be In Christ (works-based salvation).

[Samie]

1 minute ago, Samie said:

Consequently, I tell people to believe they are In Christ (grace-based salvation) INSTEAD of telling people to believe so they can be In Christ (works-based salvation).

How can a person who already is In Christ become APART from or separated from Him? When Christ blots out his name from the book of life when he dies for not overcoming evil with good while alive. 

Hence, infants who die before reaching the age of accountability, having no knowledge of good nor evil, die In Christ, and are sure of being resurrected among the righteous.

[8thdaypriest]

Broken record Samie.  Broken record . . . .

[Aliensanctuary]

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Broken record Samie.  Broken record . . . .

Better find that spoon and start using it...

Following the memory wipe, we may all be on equal footing with infants.

[Samie]

13 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Broken record Samie.  Broken record . . . .

1 hour ago, Aliensanctuary said:

Following the memory wipe, we may all be on equal footing with infants.

Why would Jesus advise His disciples to become as little children if we are to believe what many preach that infants are born APART from Christ?

[8thdaypriest]

Little children do very selfish, mean things.  I don't think Jesus meant for adults to become LIKE that.  Selfish, spoiled little children are NOT "in Christ". 

I believe Jesus MEANT that adults who know about God, should come to TRUST Him - as children are trusting of adults who care for them. 

[Samie]

TRUSTING is an ACT doable only when one is In Christ for Jesus said APART from Him man can do NOTHING. I am amazed why many preachers find this difficult for them to believe.

Why would Jesus ASK people to do the ACT of TRUSTING and hold them accountable if they don't, when He knows they cannot do it, since they are APART from Him as preachers claim?

Preachers will counter that only APPLIES to those who know about God, AS IF these preachers are not aware all people know about God as Scriptures say. Rom 1:18-21

 

[8thdaypriest]

On 7/5/2016 at 2:29 PM, Samie said:

TRUSTING is an ACT doable only when one is In Christ for Jesus said APART from Him man can do NOTHING. I am amazed why many preachers find this difficult for them to believe.

Why would Jesus ASK people to do the ACT of TRUSTING and hold them accountable if they don't, when He knows they cannot do it, since they are APART from Him as preachers claim?

Preachers will counter that only APPLIES to those who know about God, AS IF these preachers are not aware all people know about God as Scriptures say. Rom 1:18-21

 

I don't get it Samie.  We've already said, many times, that God gives to every person "a measure of faith".  It is the drawing - by His spirit.  So the one who responds to that drawing is NOT doing so in a vacuum.  He/she is NOT doing it "without Christ".  He is doing it WITH the help of the spirit of the Father, poured out through Christ.  Why do you keep saying that he is doing it apart from Christ?  No - he is NOT! 

He is responding because of the "measure" of the spirit - given to everyone.  But that "measure" - which is enough to draw the person, does NOT mean that person is a citizen of the New Jerusalem, a citizen of redeemed Israel - in covenant with God, betrothed to Christ, and promised eternal life.  No!!! 

Paul clearly told Gentiles that before they believed, they were "without Christ" and "without hope" (of eternal life) and "without God in the world".

The "measure" given to each person, only means that each person is invited.  He/she has an opportunity - nothing more. 

You take Scriptures out of context Samie.  You use Scriptures which speak of (or to) believers and apply them to the entire world population.  That's WRONG!  That's wresting the Scriptures.

You say the entire human race was Christ's "body" on the cross (and therefore died when He died), when the Scriptures say "the church" (the congregation of believers) is "his body". 

Samie, you just keep on and on and on with your false gospel.  You turn every thread into a discussion of your gospel. 

[Samie]

13 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I don't get it Samie.  We've already said, many times, that God gives to every person "a measure of faith".  It is the drawing - by His spirit.  So the one who responds to that drawing is NOT doing so in a vacuum.  He/she is NOT doing it "without Christ".  He is doing it WITH the help of the spirit of the Father, poured out through Christ.  Why do you keep saying that he is doing it apart from Christ?  No - he is NOT! 

It's the other preachers saying it, NOT me. I had been telling people to believe they are In Christ INSTEAD of telling them to believe so they can be In Christ, just like what you and other preachers teach. Jesus said that APART from Him man can do NOTHING.  If a man can do SOMETHING, then He is NOT apart from but In Christ. So if a man can respond, then he can do SOMETHING. And if he can do SOMETHING then he is NOT apart from Christ.

It's you saying that for people to be In Christ, they must first believe or respond to the spirit, which is indirectly saying people while NOT In Christ can do SOMETHING to be In Him: believe or respond to the spirit. It appears to me that you are teaching opposite to what Christ taught.

 

13 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

He is responding because of the "measure" of the spirit - given to everyone.

Which explains why I had been saying all are spiritually alive from birth.

[Samie]

13 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Paul clearly told Gentiles that before they believed, they were "without Christ" and "without hope" (of eternal life) and "without God in the world".

"before they believed" are your words, NOT Paul's. That's clearly works-based salvation: "Believe to be In Christ." Paul did not preach a works-based salvation.  "Believe you are In Christ" is what 's grace-based.

 

13 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

The "measure" given to each person, only means that each person is invited.  He/she has an opportunity - nothing more. 

Sorry, but I don't think you believe what you are now saying. You were saying that there are those who died never hearing of the gospel and now you are saying each person is invited?  But if that's so, then that's a welcome development.

[Samie]

13 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

You take Scriptures out of context Samie.  You use Scriptures which speak of (or to) believers and apply them to the entire world population.  That's WRONG!  That's wresting the Scriptures.

I think it's the other way around.  You want to apply to believers what Scriptures apply to the whole of Adam's race.

 

13 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

You say the entire human race was Christ's "body" on the cross (and therefore died when He died), when the Scriptures say "the church" (the congregation of believers) is "his body". 

That's you saying it, not the Scriptures. Scriptures say If ONE died, then ALL died. And He died FOR all (2 Cor 5:14, 15).  Who is the ALL that He died FOR? Scriptures say: EVERY MAN.

^KJV Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

But you want Scriptures to instead say If ONE died, then ALL believers died. You are adding your words to the Scriptures.

[Samie]

14 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Samie, you just keep on and on and on with your false gospel.  You turn every thread into a discussion of your gospel. 

No Ma'am. Not my gospel. I simply believe Christ when He said APART from Him man can do NOTHING.

It's your gospel that teaches while still APART from Christ, man can do SOMETHING - believe and respond to the spirit - to be In Him.

[Robert]

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[Samie]

7 hours ago, Robert said:

If man can do nothing, like believing, then why will so many be lost?

Apart from Christ man can do NOTHING.  But In Christ WHO is his Strength, man has His Power to overcome evil with good. Believing is overcoming the evil of unbelief.

Many will be lost because their names were blotted out from the book of life for REFUSING to overcome evil with good.  But overcomers will NOT be blotted out from the book of life and instead will be seated with Christ - Who also is an overcomer - in His throne. Rev 3:5, 21. 

To be blotted out from the book of life is to be removed from the body of Christ, expelled from membership in the family of God, because only those whose names are found written in the book of life will be allowed entry into the heavenly portals. Rev 21:27; Rev 20:15.

There is hope while one is alive for it is only when a person dies that judgment is rendered whether he is an overcomer or not. Heb 9:27. God through Christ is the sole Judge as to who the overcomers are.

[Samie]

On 07/07/2016 at 6:29 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

You take Scriptures out of context Samie.  You use Scriptures which speak of (or to) believers and apply them to the entire world population.  That's WRONG!  That's wresting the Scriptures.

You say the entire human race was Christ's "body" on the cross (and therefore died when He died), when the Scriptures say "the church" (the congregation of believers) is "his body". 

Who died with Christ when He died? Scriptures say:

^NKJ 2 Corinthians 5:14-15   For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died;  and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.

Who is the ALL for whom Jesus died? Scriptures respond:

^KJV Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should tastae death for every man.

The ALL for whom Jesus died is EVERY MAN, the same ALL who died with Him when He died.  But Rachel says the ALL refers to the believers only.  It appears, however, that Rachel has reconsidered her position because in another thread she said there is no exception:

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Philippians  2:10-11  “That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;  And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” 

I don't see any exception here.  EVERY knee is every knee. 

If EVERY knee is every knee, why would EVERY man be NOT every man?

I think Rachel now believes EVERY man is every man, no exception.

[Robert]

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