The Trinity doctrine

[Gail]

More and more, our members are rejecting the doctrine of the existence of the Holy Spirit.

[LifeHiscost]

4 minutes ago, Gail said:

More and more, our members are rejecting the doctrine of the existence of the Holy Spirit.

Is that statement referring to CA, Christians, or specific Christian denominations? If it's Christian denominations, in watching the internet or satellite TV I find that debatable although the Word probably agrees, especially in the practice of the majority.

For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets. 13Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it.…Matthew 7

26Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man: 27People were eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.…Luke 17

God is Love!~Jesus saves!  

 

[JoeMo]

I wouldn't say SDA's are denying th existence of the HS as much as they are denying the explicit personhood of the HS.  The Bible is clear that the Holy Spirit exists; but (to me at least) it is also clear that the HS in the Spirit of Christ, or the Spirit of God.

"You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ."  (Romans 8:9)

"And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:11)

"And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." I Cor. 6:11)

"You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, (II Cor.3:3)

"for I know that through your prayers and God’s provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ what has happened to me will turn out for my deliverance." (Phil 1:19)

"Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters." (Gen. 1:1)

See also Gen. 41:38, Ex. 31:3 and 35:31, Numbers 24:2, 1 Sam. 10:10 and 11:6, 2 Chron. 15:1 and 24:20, Job 33:4, and Psalm 106:33 for just a small sample of scriptures pointing to the HS being the Spirit of God or the Spirit of Christ.

[Gregory Matthews]

What Gail said in the OP is news to me.  And it is dangerous as the Holy Spirit is our spiritual guide.

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

2 hours ago, Gail said:

More and more, our members are rejecting the doctrine of the existence of the Holy Spirit.

Not rejecting the EXISTENCE of the spirit.  Just denying its existence as a THIRD divine being.

Only TWO divine beings are worshiped in Scripture. 

If you can point to even ONE passage which commands either directly or by example that we worship, pray to, sing to, praise, thank or serve a third divine being - please give me the reference. 

Revelation 5:13 

"And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I [John] heard saying: 

"Blessing and honor and glory and power

Be to Him who sits on the throne, [Being #1]

And to the Lamb, forever and ever!"  [Being #2]

[JoeMo]

37 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

What Gail said in the OP is news to me.  And it is dangerous as the Holy Spirit is our spiritual guide.

Isn't what you're saying valid if we substitute "Spirit of God" or "Spirit of Christ" for "Holy Spirit"?  I've taken Rachel's challenge before; and have never been able to find a passage where anyone talks or prays the Holy Spirit.  IMHO, the Holy Spirit could be the "God stuff"  that Jesus left behind in heaven when He came to earth as a human; and then sent to earth after His ascension as "The Comforter.

"And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age" (Matt. 28:20)  How could this be unless Jesus sent us His Spirit (i.e., the Spirit of Christ)?

[Gail]

This last one I read was that since God is omnipresent there is no need.

[Gregory Matthews]

JoMo asked:

The term "Holy Spirit" implies a 3rd member.  The terms you have used imply two members.

Isn't what you're saying valid if we substitute "Spirit of God" or "Spirit of Christ" for "Holy Spirit"?

 

[LifeHiscost]

2 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Not rejecting the EXISTENCE of the spirit.  Just denying its existence as a THIRD divine being.

Only TWO divine beings are worshiped in Scripture. 

If you can point to even ONE passage which commands either directly or by example that we worship, pray to, sing to, praise, thank or serve a third divine being - please give me the reference. 

26When the Advocate comes, whom (personal pronoun)I will send you from the Father — the Spirit of truth who (personal separate entity) goes out from the Father - He will testify about Me....John 15

The definitive need to pray to the Holy Spirit seems not obligatory, however since coming directly from the Father and addressed as "He" and a comforter, a separate individual from the Divine Father, one seems not to be remiss if choosing to pray to Him.

15If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. 16And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever — 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and He will be in you.…. John 14

   As thus step by step we ascend the shining ladder that leads to the city of God, oh how many times we shall be discouraged and come to weep at the feet of Jesus over our failures and our defeats.... Yet let us not cease our efforts. Heaven can be attained by every one of us if we will strive lawfully, doing the will of Jesus and growing into His image. Temporary failure should make us lean more heavily on Christ, and we should press on with brave heart, determined will, and unfaltering purpose.—

Signs of the Times, August 14, 1884. {FH 23.5}   

Jesus has given me an Advocate and it only seems reasonable since He came directly from the Father, that to converse with Him would not be welcomed by all three of the Deity.

God is Love!~Jesus saves!    

[Kevin H]

Satan has 3 deceptions. All other problems are ways how Satan applies these 3 deceptions to different aspects of life. These 3 deceptions are:

1. God is not God but a more highly evolved being who has no intrinsic right to place a law over us. He is therefore a cruel tyrant who is preventing us from evolving to his positon through imposing upon us the law of self sacrificing love that he does not keep. This way we are so busy caring about each other that we don't have time to develop ourselves to evolve into God. (thus seeing God, however powerful he may be, as still essentially a being like us and thus able to be overthrown).

Now Ii God is God and has the right to place a law over us, there are still problems, God claims to be just and merciful. For God to be just the sinner has to die. For God to be merciful he has to forgive them. So this leads into his second and third deception:

2. Since God is a tyrant Justice will prevail. God is going to get you for your sins.  God cannot uphold Justice and forgive sinners.

3. Since Jesus died on the cross that means that Mercy prevailed and that the law has been done away with.

These 3 deceptions attack different members of the trinity. The first one attack God the Father who is God as power and exaltation. The second attacks God the Son who died to deliver us from sin, the third attacks the Holy Spirit who write's God's law on our hearts.

 

The trinity are 3 revelations of God of three things that we need to know about God. First that he is of a different essence than we are, that he is the self existent all powerful creator and we are creatures. But this alone would scare us to death. We also need to know that the only way we can exist is in a relationship with this God, so we have God as our personal friend, one of us. God the son. But these two are objective revelations of God, we are both objective and subjective. The Holy Spirit is how God works with our subjective. It is only as we hold these three aspects in tension with each other that we can have a knowledge of God that is both necessary and sufficient. Satan's plan is to divide and conquer.

[Lori]

It is so interesting to see what Paul understood was the Spirit of God when he quoted Isaiah 40:13 "who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being His counselor hath taught Him?”  In Romans 11:34 he quoted it like this: "who hath known the MIND of the Lord, or who hath been His counselor?" and in 1 Corinthians 2:16 he quoted it like this: "For who hath known the MIND of the Lord, that he may instruct Him?" and then he goes on to say "but we have the mind of Christ." That is the same as saying "but we have the Holy Spirit." That is because in 1 Corinthians 15:45 Paul tells us that Jesus, "the last Adam, was made a quickening Spirit." and in 2 Corinthians 3:15 Paul tells us "now the Lord" (referring to Jesus Himself, as evidenced by the context of the previous verses) "IS THAT SPIRIT."

It truly IS “Christ in you, the hope of glory!”

“We want the Holy Spirit, which is Jesus Christ.” From Letter 66-1894 (April 10, 1894) par. 18 (written to Elder Prescott)

In giving His commission to His followers, Christ did not tell them they would be left alone. He assured them that He would be near them. He spoke of HIS Omnipresence in a special way. Go to all nations, He said. Go, to the farthest portion of the habitable globe, but know that MY presence will be there. Labor in faith and confidence, for the time will never come when I shall forsake you.” (Manuscript 138, 1897) - EGW

JEHOVAH, OUR FATHER, AND HIS SON JESUS CHRIST ARE ALONE TO BE EXALTED. The knowledge of God is eternal life to those who receive it (John 17:3).  His holy banner is to stand elevated above all the greatness of the greatest men, above all the honor and glory of the world.” {Ms11-1898 (June 29, 1898) par. 11} - EGW

 “If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, even the Spirit of truth, (which is Christ formed within the hope of glory,) whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not: but ye know him, for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless; I will come to you.”” {Ms24-1898 (February 22, 1898) par. 21} - EGW *comment in parenthesis was in original statement.

"Christ is to be known by the blessed name of Comforter.” {Ms7-1902 (January 26, 1902) par. 10} - EGW

"Christ comes as a Comforter to all who believe. He invites your confidence. He says, “Abide in me.” Surely we may trust in our loving Saviour.”  Letter 103-1898 (November 21, 1898) par. 14

[Lori]

The Bible speaks of the Holy Spirit as being "of God", meaning that it belongs to, or is from, God. This does not mean that it is a third separate divine being, but that it is God's Spirit. What would you think of me if I said "Hi, my name is Lori. ALSO, I'd like you to meet my spirit, here she is, standing right beside me."   Or if I said "My friend has a very joyful spirit!" or "that person's spirit is terribly grieved right now." Both statements are true, and it would also be true to speak of those friends THEMSELVES as being joyful or grieved. We experience those emotions in our spirits, but that doesn't mean that we, and additionally another individual called "our spirit", are experiencing those emotions.  

1 Corinthians 2:11:  "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him?  EVEN SO, the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."    And 1 Corinthians 2:10  "But God hath revealed them unto us by His Spirit; for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God."  1 Corinthians 2:16  "For 'who hath known the mind (Spirit) of the Lord, that he may instruct Him?  BUT WE HAVE THE MIND OF CHRIST." 

Jesus was explaining to His disciples in John 14 that He would be leaving them soon.  He told them that "I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth [who did He say was the way, TRUTH, and life?], whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him, BUT YE KNOW HIM, FOR HE DWELLETH WITH YOU [who was dwelling with the disciples right then?], and SHALL BE IN YOU.  I WILL NOT LEAVE YOU COMFORTLESS; I WILL COME TO YOU."

"Christ was the spirit of truth. The world will not listen to His pleadings. They would not accept Him as their guide. They could not discern unseen things; spiritual things were unknown to them. But His disciples [context = us, here and now] see in Him the Way, the Truth, and the Life. And they shall have HIS abiding presence. They shall have an experimental knowledge of the only true God and of Jesus Christ whom He hath sent."  EGW, The Southern Review, October 25, 1898.

Jesus went on to explain that they, His disciples, would be able to see (by faith) and experience His presence, but the world wouldn't.  They understood that He was speaking about Himself and not another person, because Judas (not Iscariot) asked for clarification:  "Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?  Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words; and my Father will love him, and WE (the Father and the Son) will come and make our abode with him."  John 14:22, 23

That is why John the beloved wrote in 1 John 1:3 "...and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son."

That is why Jesus said, in His wonderful prayer to His Father right before Gethsemane:  "And this is life eternal, that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent."  John 17:3

[Lori]

1 Corinthians 15:45 tells us that "And so it is written, 'the first man Adam was made a living soul'; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."

2 Corinthians 3:17 confirms that affirmation:  "Now the Lord [Jesus, in context] is that Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."

[debbym]

1 hour ago, Lori said:

1 Corinthians 15:45 tells us that "And so it is written, 'the first man Adam was made a living soul'; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."

2 Corinthians 3:17 confirms that affirmation:  "Now the Lord [Jesus, in context] is that Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."

Jesus said, If you have seen me you have seen the Father, this did not mean there was not two individuals, both equally God.

Jesus has been working since the fall to reveal the Father's love to us. He represented the Father to us in person, and the Spirit represents Jesus to us in person, because Jesus is in heaven and we cannot see him in bodily form.  So the Spirit was sent to make Jesus known, to us and through us.  Because of sin we can no longer hold face to face communion with the Father, so Jesus stepped into that gap and made a way for us to have communion with the Father by Faith until face to face communion is restored.   The Spirit seeks not his own glory but the Glory of the Father and the Son. The Son seeks the glory of the Father, and the Father seeks the glory of the Son through the Spirit. The Spirit brings to us and applies to us all that has been given to us in Christ, all three labor to restore us.  We will be glorified in our complete redemption in Heaven, and when we are seeking only the glory of God here on earth, His glory rests on us, empowering us to witness.

When we glorify the Father and son through the Spirit, we do not grieve the Spirit but rather honor the Spirit. To honor the Lord is to glorify the Lord and acknowledge his authority and character.  The Character of God is the Character of the Father, Son, and Spirit.  None are self seeking.  Let the Spirit be true and every man a liar.

 

[JoeMo]

16 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

JoMo asked:

The term "Holy Spirit" implies a 3rd member.  The terms you have used imply two members.

" I and the Father are one.” (John 10:30)

"Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”  Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?  Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work." (John 14:8-10)

If Jesus and the Father are One, their Spirits can also be One.   But  I no longer believe that the Spirit is a separate being.  When I get to the Kingdom, if Jesus tells me I'm wrong, I can be swayed.

[JoeMo]

Welcome, Lori!

Nice posts!

[phkrause]

Personally I don't believe, believing in a trinity is a salvation issue! But than again it can be! I myself do believe in the Trinity! I see no reason not to, and on the other hand, probably no reason to believe. One of the reason's I do believe in a Trinity, and its my weakest reason! Where do the numbers 777 and 666 come from? or maybe why do we have those numbers? One thing I've heard , and this comes from a number of theologians that I know. The 777 stands for the Holy Trinity, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit! The 666 would stands for the unholy trinity, Satan or the Dragon, the Beast, and the false prophet. I can buy that! What would be a good reason not to believe in the Trinity?? Does it hurt someone to believe? Will it keep us out of the Kingdom???? Anyway, that's my thought's on the matter.

[Lori]

Hi phkrause!   Just curious....I wonder where in scripture did those theologians find 777?  I'm skeptical about theologians who use extra-biblical terms to "prove" a doctrine.....Here is a youtube video that really made it clear to me about the trinity being salvational.  I hope you will watch it!  

 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I'm not real impressed with the video.  There's some misinformation that's being given.  (for example, "Wicca" is *not* a synonym for "witchcraft")

The claim that the triune pagan gods are cause to discredit the idea of the Christian Trinity is, in my opinion, inane.  

The idea that anything that has pagan origins — holidays, worship, or anything in daily life — is a reason to throw up our hands and recede from reality, is poppycock.  We worship on the Sabbath, Saturday or the pagan day of Saturn.  

the whole idea of "pastoring" and of giving sermons is of a pagan (Roman and Greek) origin... should we now dismiss the whole population of ministers and pastors and go back to the original Christian assemblage of worship, where everyone is a participant rather than a spectator?

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Lori,  the fact that a Trinity existed in some early pagan religions does not prove that Christianity got it from that source.

I will remind you that baptism existed in non-Christian religions well before in became a Christian practice.

Hislop is an interesting historian. But, as you probably knew and did not tell us, he would almost be considered ancient.  He is not correct in everything that he said/wrote.

[Gregory Matthews]

More on Alexander Hislop:

He died in 1865.  He is best known for his 323 page book entitled The Two Babylons.  This book went through multiple editions with the final 1919 (on the title page listed as 1916) edition consisting of some 500 pages.

He has been soundly criticized for historical errors and lack of logic in some of the conclusions that he made.

If you want to read his book it is on the Internet and available to all.

The following URL does not give you his book, but it tells you something about his life and work.

See:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Babylons

[Gregory Matthews]

Lori said below:

That is exactly what you have done.  You are telling us that an extra-biblical you tube video has defined a salvational issue for you!

 I'm skeptical about theologians who use extra-biblical terms to "prove" a doctrine.....Here is a youtube video that really made it clear to me about the trinity being salvational.

[Lori]

6 hours ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

We worship on the Sabbath, Saturday or the pagan day of Saturn.

Ummmm.....no.  We worship on the Sabbath, the seventh day which was set apart and sanctified by God at creation, which only much later came to be called by the name of a pagan god.  

Also you said " the whole idea of "pastoring" and of giving sermons is of a pagan (Roman and Greek) origin."  To me that seems to be a very strange statement.   Paul ordained elders (who functioned as our pastors today) in every city, leaving behind a well organised church everywhere he went.  He set the example of preaching every Sabbath, sometimes extending far into the evening, even past midnight on at least one occasion.   Jesus gave sermons all the time.   The practice of giving sermons was time honored from at least the days of Moses, and onward.  Ezra and all the prophets gave sermons.   In the absence of a prophet of God, sermons have frequently consisted of reading scripture and expounding on it, all through the old and the new testament and into the present day.  It is not of pagan origin!

[Lori]

23 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

 

Lori said below:

That is exactly what you have done.  You are telling us that an extra-biblical you tube video has defined a salvational issue for you!

 

Hi Gregory...."extra-biblical" to me means a concept that is not found in scripture.  

[Gregory Matthews]

Lori:  You are clearly correct as to a standard meaning for the term.  My concern and response was related to how you used it.  You were clear is stating that it was the you tube video that was based on the work of Alexander Hislop that was the source for your belief that the Trinity doctrine was not salvational.  You then suggested that we watch the video.

To start off, I have a problem with any suggestion that ones doctrinal belief should be based upon a source other than the Bible.  In addition, when that suggested source is as faulty as is Hislop, I am much more opposed to that idea.

If you had told us that that based upon your understanding of the Bible, you do not believe that the Trinity doctrine is salvational I would have agreed that at least you were suggesting a proper standard for determining such a belief. But, I cannot agree that Hislop should ever be a standard to determine what is salvational.  That is exactly what you did when you said:

 

Here is a youtube video that really made it clear to me about the trinity being salvational.