The Trinity doctrine

[phkrause]

I've seen the first three now. Will watch the other two tomorrow.

[Kevin H]

On ‎11‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 5:31 PM, Stan said:

I have never seen a conversation, on this or other forums, on the trinity end well. 

This is a time to deal with Stan's warning. As I recall in the past when this topic came up, there were people who hijacked the thread and did not leave it in the thread where the issue was discussed, but started hijacking several other threads so that no matter where we turned their they were with their arguments and all other discussion stopped. If you started a thread saying "Good morning" they would soon be writing "Yes, and this is only one morning, not three just as you think there are three gods so you better stop that and accept our view and give up your Trinitarian view..." I think that if we are civil, share what we believe and try to clarify our understandings and limit it to this thread and not have some people hijack this and spread it like an epidemic going through other threads then this time it can end better than before.

[Enabled]

On November 2, 2016 at 2:02 PM, phkrause said:

Personally I don't believe, believing in a trinity is a salvation issue! But than again it can be! I myself do believe in the Trinity! I see no reason not to, and on the other hand, probably no reason to believe. One of the reason's I do believe in a Trinity, and its my weakest reason! Where do the numbers 777 and 666 come from? or maybe why do we have those numbers? One thing I've heard , and this comes from a number of theologians that I know. The 777 stands for the Holy Trinity, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit! The 666 would stands for the unholy trinity, Satan or the Dragon, the Beast, and the false prophet. I can buy that! What would be a good reason not to believe in the Trinity?? Does it hurt someone to believe? Will it keep us out of the Kingdom???? Anyway, that's my thought's on the matter.

No outward shrines may be visible, there may be no image for the eye to rest upon, yet we may be practicing idolatry. It is as easy to make an idol of cherished ideas or objects as to fashion gods of wood or stone. Thousands have a false conception of God and His attributes. They are as verily serving a false god as were the servants of Baal. Are we worshiping the true God as He is revealed in His Word, in Christ, in nature, or are we adoring some philosophical idol enshrined in His place? God is a God of truth {LHU 143.4}

Let the brightest example the world has yet seen be your example, rather than the greatest and most learned men of the age, who know not God, nor Jesus Christ whom he has sent. The Father and the Son alone are to be exalted.  {YI, July 7, 1898 par. 2}

False Conceptions of God Are Idolatry—Are we worshipers of Jehovah, or of Baal? of the living God, or of idols? No outward shrines may be visible; there may be no image for the eye to rest upon; yet we may be practising idolatry. It is as easy to make an idol of cherished ideas or objects as to fashion gods of wood or stone. Thousands have a false conception of God and His attributes. They are as verily serving a false God as were the servants of Baal (The Review and Herald, December 3, 1908). – {1BC 1105.8}

Not sure about it being safe to hold a wrong concept of Devinity was the position of Israel when they made a calf out to be a fit representation of the God that had just oommanded them to have no other God's before them, the same God who had just brought them out of Egypt and spoken to them audibly. 

Just some thoughts.

[Enabled]

5 hours ago, Kevin H said:

This is a time to deal with Stan's warning. As I recall in the past when this topic came up, there were people who hijacked the thread and did not leave it in the thread where the issue was discussed, but started hijacking several other threads so that no matter where we turned their they were with their arguments and all other discussion stopped. If you started a thread saying "Good morning" they would soon be writing "Yes, and this is only one morning, not three just as you think there are three gods so you better stop that and accept our view and give up your Trinitarian view..." I think that if we are civil, share what we believe and try to clarify our understandings and limit it to this thread and not have some people hijack this and spread it like an epidemic going through other threads then this time it can end better than before.

All will get a chance to be civil in the coming quarterly.

[Enabled]

12 hours ago, Dr. Waite said:

The bottom line is the three angel's messages. Who are we to worship? If we worship the wrong person or wrong god, will we receive the mark of the beast and the plagues? Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of the Living God, became one of us and he gave us an example to follow. Who did he worship? Did he worship a trinity? Did he worship a third being call "god the holy spirit"?  Did he worship a being called "god the son"? So, who did he worship? Of. course, he worshiped his Father and his God who is one person and one being. This is who I worship. This is what Jesus Christ taught. This is his doctrine. "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.  If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed:  For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."  2nd John 1:9-11. 

Very prudent considerations. Interesting to note that we as Adventist Christians are generally quick to accept the Trinity as do most denominations, with out questioning its history or source of definition. We have come to call it the Godhead doctrine without researching the biblical meaning of the word Godhead. Our founding Fathers were to a man none Trinitarian in their belief why? We might also ask why we are quick to accept this doctrine who's roots are found in Catholic history yet we reject the sign of her authority "Sunday sacredness" but we never question the definition of the God she serves? Do we merely think she has Hijacked God as worshipped in history or has she redefined God in History? Here a is thought to ponder, she built her power on the destruction of the Arian nations, why did he have to destroy three to be?

[Dr. Waite]

2 minutes ago, Enabled said:

Very prudent considerations. Interesting to note that we as Adventist Christians are generally quick to accept the Trinity as do most denominations, with out questioning its history or source of definition. We have come to call it the Godhead doctrine without researching the biblical meaning of the word Godhead. Our founding Fathers were to a man none Trinitarian in their belief why? We might also ask why we are quick to accept this doctrine who's roots are found in Catholic history yet we reject the sign of her authority "Sunday sacredness" but we never question the definition of the God she serves? Do we merely think she has Hijacked God as worshipped in history or has she redefined God in History? Here a is thought to ponder, she built her power on the destruction of the Arian nations, why did he have to destroy three to be?

The Bible says: "And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.   And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?" Revelation 13:3-4  Are the ones who accepted the doctrine whose roots are found in Catholic history wondering after the beast? Here is a thought to ponder.

[Gregory Matthews]

Enabled said below:

That is not true.  It is true that those who either came from or were influenced by the Christian Connection were not Trinitarian.  But, out founding fathers included people who came from other denominations and were Trinitarian.

By the way, our founders include people other than males.

Our founding Fathers were to a man none Trinitarian in their belief why?

]

[Dr. Waite]

59 minutes ago, Enabled said:

Enabled said: Our founding Fathers were to a man none Trinitarian in their belief why? Gregory Matthews: You said that this is not true. So, then: Who among the founding fathers accepted the trinity doctrine?

[Enabled]

33 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Enabled said below:

That is not true.  It is true that those who either came from or were influenced by the Christian Connection were not Trinitarian.  But, out founding fathers included people who came from other denominations and were Trinitarian.

By the way, our founders include people other than males.

 

]

I agree with "were Trinitarian" though they ceased to be with time and study of what became the pillars our faith until Glacier views in 1980 preceeded by many between 1922 and 1957 leadiing up to "Questions on Doctrine. I will ignore your quip on males as that is another topic. God made man in his image both male and female made he them.

The Christian connection was  only a few of the original members but there influence in the study of scripture was sound. Check the history of the great ship captain and others who joined the fellowship because it was non trinitarian in its profession. I will join Dr.  Waite at this point and wait for your provision of one sermon/ariticle found in any Adventist publication espousing Trinity as a doctrinal understanding prior to Dr. Kellogs Treatise that were openly rejected by the leadership and E.G. White along with his book. Founding Fathers I remind you and not general memership as personal conscience of the membership was not in my comments but the understanding of those that framed the beliefs of Adventism through long nights of bible study and prayer as they  were held prior to 1922.

[8thdaypriest]

9 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Thank you for answering my question. I am actually surprised to learn for the first time that this doctrine/s are being questioned or rejected like this. I had always thought of this one about the "Trinity" so called, as one of the cardinal doctrines that most any church would adopt. I wonder what the problem is that so many are having with this doctrine? I would like to know more why they are reaching such a conclusion. I have a family member who is Jehovah's Witness. Are people in our church who reject the trinity sort of going along with the JW train of belief, or are there other factors at work here?

JWs teach that Jesus Christ is NOT DIVINE and should NOT be worshiped.  

In Scripture Jesus IS worshiped.  He is worthy of worship.  He was begotten a divine being, because He "came forth from the Father" BEFORE He incarnated into human flesh.  

So - No!  What I believe is not the same as what JW teaching. 

[8thdaypriest]

2 hours ago, Enabled said:

Very prudent considerations. Interesting to note that we as Adventist Christians are generally quick to accept the Trinity as do most denominations, with out questioning its history or source of definition. We have come to call it the Godhead doctrine without researching the biblical meaning of the word Godhead. Our founding Fathers were to a man none Trinitarian in their belief why? We might also ask why we are quick to accept this doctrine who's roots are found in Catholic history yet we reject the sign of her authority "Sunday sacredness" but we never question the definition of the God she serves? Do we merely think she has Hijacked God as worshipped in history or has she redefined God in History? Here a is thought to ponder, she built her power on the destruction of the Arian nations, why did he have to destroy three to be?

The "Arian nations" were those who had accepted the doctrine of Arius - that Christ was begotten from God (who thus became "the Father"). 

It is worth noting that "the head of Christ is God" (I Cor 11:3).  God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ are NOT co-equal. 

When "the end" comes, Jesus will "be subject to" God His Father - for eternity.  That is hierarchy.

1 Corinthians 15:24 "Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, after he has destroyed every ruler and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For "God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "All things are put in subjection," it is plain that this does not include the one who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to the one who put all things in subjection under him, so that God may be all in all."

PS:  There is NO MENTION of a third divine being in this hierarchy.

[Dr. Waite]

And, the JWs say that there is NO difference between created and begotten in regard to Jesus Christ. Just like some SDAs. But, Ellen White, a true SDA, states that there IS a difference.

[8thdaypriest]

It is significant to consider what is LEFT OUT of NT Scripture passages.

Ephesians 4:6  “... one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”  (No other spirit mentioned)

This is why I say the "spirit" is the spirit OF God our Father, which flows through Christ to us. 

 

We are supposed to PRAY to the Father, in the name of Christ His Son.  (No mention of another being.)

Luke 11:2 “So He said to them, ‘When you pray, say: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven’”  (Matt. 6:10).

So - the Father's will is supreme, and the coming kingdom will be the kingdom of "Our Father".  No mention of a third being.

 

In the Gospels, "God" is "our Father".

John 20:17  "I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”

 

 

[Enabled]

Interesting that Lucifer was called by E G White "third power in the Kingdom"

Daniel was also "third power in the Kingdom" a good example of her intended meaning as Nebuchadnezzar was not the first power but ruled under his Fathers authority over a city and the armies of his Father. No coincidence here. Christ rules until there is victory for his Fathers throne.

[8thdaypriest]

"God so loved the world the HE gave HIS only begotten Son."  (John 3:16)

So WHO sent His Son?

1 John 4:14 “And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.”

    John 5:30  [Christ] “I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me” (John 5:23, John 5:37).

    John 5:37 [Christ] “And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.”

    John 6:39 [Christ] “This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.”

    John 6:44 [Christ] “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

    John 6:57 [Christ] “As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.”

    John 8:16 [Christ] “And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me.”

    John 8:29 [Christ] “And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him.”

    John 8:42 “Jesus said to them, ‘If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.’”

    John 10:36 [Christ] “Do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God?’”

John 12:49 “For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.”

    John 17:21 [Jesus last prayer to His Father] “ ... that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.”

John 17:25 “O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me.”

John 20:21 “So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.”

How many times does He have to say something, before we believe Him???

Never once does Jesus say He was begotten from the Holy Spirit, or was sent by the Holy Spirit, or did the will of the Holy Spirit. 

[8thdaypriest]

Romans 1:7 “To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”

1 Corinthians 1:3 “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”

2 Corinthians 1:2-3 “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,”

Ephesians 1:2 “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”

Ephesians 6:23 “Peace to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”

Philippians 1:2 “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”

    Colossians 1:2-3 “To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are in Colossi: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.  We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,”
        
    1 Thessalonians 1:1  “Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”

    2 Thessalonians 1:1-2 “Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”

    1 Timothy 1:2 “To Timothy, a true son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.”

    Titus 1:4  “To Titus, a true son in our common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior.”

Philemon 1:3 “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”

2 John 1:3 “Grace, mercy, and peace will be with you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.”

    Jude 1:1 “Jude, a bond servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:”

       
    Conclusion: Thirteen times Paul greeted the disciples of Christ in the name of the Father and the Son.

Once He prayed that the grace of Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Spirit (2 Cor. 13:14) would be with the followers of Christ .

The weight is heavily on the side of two divine beings, not three.

 

[8thdaypriest]

I was brought up SDA and simply took the "three living beings of the heavenly trio" for granted.  I did NOT change my view on this casually.  I struggled and prayed for several years. 

I read through the entire NT - slowly and verse by verse - looking for evidence on this specific issue.  I was forced to conclude their are only TWO divine beings - God our Father and His Son. 

[Kevin H]

4 hours ago, Enabled said:

No outward shrines may be visible, there may be no image for the eye to rest upon, yet we may be practicing idolatry. It is as easy to make an idol of cherished ideas or objects as to fashion gods of wood or stone. Thousands have a false conception of God and His attributes. They are as verily serving a false god as were the servants of Baal. Are we worshiping the true God as He is revealed in His Word, in Christ, in nature, or are we adoring some philosophical idol enshrined in His place? God is a God of truth {LHU 143.4}

Let the brightest example the world has yet seen be your example, rather than the greatest and most learned men of the age, who know not God, nor Jesus Christ whom he has sent. The Father and the Son alone are to be exalted.  {YI, July 7, 1898 par. 2}

False Conceptions of God Are Idolatry—Are we worshipers of Jehovah, or of Baal? of the living God, or of idols? No outward shrines may be visible; there may be no image for the eye to rest upon; yet we may be practising idolatry. It is as easy to make an idol of cherished ideas or objects as to fashion gods of wood or stone. Thousands have a false conception of God and His attributes. They are as verily serving a false God as were the servants of Baal (The Review and Herald, December 3, 1908). – {1BC 1105.8}

Not sure about it being safe to hold a wrong concept of Devinity was the position of Israel when they made a calf out to be a fit representation of the God that had just oommanded them to have no other God's before them, the same God who had just brought them out of Egypt and spoken to them audibly. 

Just some thoughts.

I will have to explain this later, but these quotes deal into the importance of the trinity. If we do not hold all 3 aspects together in tension we pick one aspect of the trinity as "God" as "God in total" We are turning the infinite God who steps into the finite world into one limited finite aspect. It can become idolatry. Here in the Western world we tend to worship God of Power and make God the Father God. In the Eastern Religions they tend to worship God working with our subjective existential experience, the Holy Spirit.  

[Gail]

It might also help to define what the Spirit is as opposed to what it is not.

In Romans 8:9 seems to speak of the Spirit of God as also the Spirit of Christ.

[phkrause]

6 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I was brought up SDA and simply took the "three living beings of the heavenly trio" for granted.  I did NOT change my view on this casually.  I struggled and prayed for several years. 

I read through the entire NT - slowly and verse by verse - looking for evidence on this specific issue.  I was forced to conclude their are only TWO divine beings - God our Father and His Son. 

Interesting, because I know of some that have gone the other way on this!

[Gail]

23 hours ago, phkrause said:

Pr David Ascherick has an interesting talk/sermon on the Trinity! If I can find it, I will post it. Also there was a book written by a non-Adventist Pr that had a interesting explanation of the Trinity. When I get a chance I'll try to find the book. As of right now most of my books are still packed in boxes.

You can find that talk on Youtube. I just searched David Asscherick and Holy Spirit. The series was well done

[Ron Amnsn]

18 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

This applies in various ways, in various settings, to God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit.

It's interesting to note that there are 15 or so verses in Scripture that use the term "God the Father", while there are zero verses that use the terms "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit".

At one time I was being pressured to affirm the doctrine of the trinity in order to keep my job as an administrator at a Christian school.  It came up because it was a new school and I wanted to keep the non-Scriptural trinitarian terminology out of the school's new Statement of Faith. I found that the trinitarians could not explain or talk about their doctrine without using terminology that is not found in Scripture.  They let it drop after I explained to the Board that I would easily affirm every passage of Scripture they might bring forward regarding the nature of God, and Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, but that after I had done that they still wouldn't know if I believed "properly" because what they really wanted me to affirm was terminology that was not found in the Bible, and that I was not willing to affirm their non-Scriptural terminology precisely because it added concepts that are not found in Scripture.

Scripture emphasizes only the unity or oneness of God.  Why do Christians need to emphasize the "three-ness" of God? 

The trinity doctrine is one of the major things that prevents religious Jews from accepting Jesus as the Messiah.  It seems if Christians were really interested in preaching the gospel "to the Jew first", they would abandon the unScriptural trinitarian terminology and stick to what is actually stated in Scripture.

[Ron Amnsn]

24 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

Neither does Scripture use the phrase "unity of God" or "oneness of God"

Fair enough. Let's not use them to describe our beliefs.

[Kevin H]

4 hours ago, Ron Amnsn said:

Scripture emphasizes only the unity or oneness of God.  Why do Christians need to emphasize the "three-ness" of God? 

The trinity doctrine is one of the major things that prevents religious Jews from accepting Jesus as the Messiah.  It seems if Christians were really interested in preaching the gospel "to the Jew first", they would abandon the unScriptural trinitarian terminology and stick to what is actually stated in Scripture.

I'm sorry but the ancient Jews recognized a union between a oneness and a Threeness of God.  Until 135 AD when Christianity and Judaism became two different religions instead of a sub group of Judaism. In the process the  both groups gave up what they believed prior to 135 AD.  Jews changed their views to emphasize the oneness and the Christians took the Threeness. But prior to 135 AD there was an understanding that held both together.

[Enabled]

19 hours ago, Kevin H said:

I will have to explain this later, but these quotes deal into the importance of the trinity. If we do not hold all 3 aspects together in tension we pick one aspect of the trinity as "God" as "God in total" We are turning the infinite God who steps into the finite world into one limited finite aspect. It can become idolatry. Here in the Western world we tend to worship God of Power and make God the Father God. In the Eastern Religions they tend to worship God working with our subjective existential experience, the Holy Spirit.  

So Kevin why do men have such a desire to place a philisophical construct on a simple thus saith the Lord?

Quote

Joh 17:3  And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent

 So where is the difficulty for those that wish to define God as a Trinity in this statement above. Are we to believe that the Father (who is a Father because he has a son) is not the only TRUE GOD as his son states here or is it the fact that eternal life is for those that have this knowledge. Why would one care what eastern mystics believe if the words of our saviour himself proclaim that his Father is the only true God. For that matter why would one care what the western world tends to think apart from what is in these words of Christ? The only reason I should care about either group is to save them from loss and bring them into the light of the glory Christ that he is here espousing. The Truth about God and the Glory he wants for them to have that can only be possessed through the context which is the Glory of the Father in him and the knowledge of them, which is the truth about the only true God and the messiah (Christ) he has sent that Christ has made a central statement in this prayer to his Father the only TRUE GOD. We can make this a comlexitiy or we can simply accept the statement made "the only true god" thus by his own words leaving all other gods in another category: not true gods. No where does Christ proclaim to be the supreme power in heaven, the all emcompassing source of all thiings. Though he was the God of Isreal while in the desert and through out scripture, and he is our Lord and God this does not necessitate that he is also the only true God. 

Quote

"From eternity there was a complete unity between the Father and the Son. They were two, yet little short of being identical; two in individuality, yet one in spirit, and heart, and character."  {YI, December 16, 1897 par. 5}

As the prophet says above one in spirit yet two individualsl. A perfect unity of spirit, heart and charcter but not of person. Look at the following:

Quote

 

" Christ is one with the Father, but Christ and God are two distinct personages " RH June 1, 1905

Now of the spirit the main issue seems to be with the meaning of the word as some would have it apart from its actual meaning as controlled by context.

Quote

Those who believe the truth should remember that they are God's little children, under His training. Let them be thankful to God for His manifold mercies and be kind to one another. They have one God and one Saviour; and one Spirit-- the Spirit of Christ--is to bring unity into their ranks. {SpTB04 23.3}

Quote

    Wonderfully were these words fulfilled. After the descent of the Holy Spirit, the disciples were so filled with love for Him and for those for whom He died, that hearts were melted by the words they spoke and the prayers they offered. They spoke in the power of the Spirit; and under the influence of that power, thousands were converted.  {AA 22.2}  

Here in she refers to the Holy spirit in the context of the one who died for them and there great love for him: The spirit of Christ. Others have posted here on this thread considerable from scripture that identify why she would have worded it this way as to her the spririt of Christ and of his Father are one and the same as found in the scriptures.