The Trinity doctrine

[Gail]

9 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Gail, it was not I who said the above.  It was Rachel.

I know it... It is because I took her quote from your post that your name popped in.

[APL]

Keven - you state this paper, that document, says such and such, but never give references. Are we expected to take your interpretation of what you claim based only on the fact that you say it? Without documentation, your lengthy posts are just hearsay. We need evidence, and evidence that appeals to the reason.

10 hours ago, Kevin H said:

Enabled; Good posts and I will have to take more time to reply than I have right now. (My mom had a stroke nearly 2 weeks ago so that has been taking up a lot of my time).

The issue I mentioned with Elder Froom is that when I was at Andrews in the 1980s I use to like to just read things in the White Estate vault. Even thought I did not have a plan for my freestyle reading (using the plans for research papers) I did end up reading a lot about Mrs. White's and Willie White's relationships with some of the ultra conservative pastors who are still very popular today, and also about the Trinity.

In this reading I read from the early 1900s papers from people who had newly changed their views to trinitarianism as well as people who were not too excited about it. One of the later categories had written that it was Prescott in the 1890s who brought the trinity idea into Adventism. (Technically he brought in the Holy Spirit part, and A. D. Daniels the God the Son part so it was the union of the two ideas that moved the trinity from an unpopular optional doctrine to more center.)

Anyway, a few years ago and I think it might have been this discussion forum although it might have been someone in person or another means of communication. But what I had read that was written in the early 1900s giving the story of Prescott bringing the trinity into the church, Someone offered the same story but instead of the villain being Prescott in the 1890s it was Froom in the 1950s. No I do not have both quotes that I can hold up side by side, but I would not have been surprised if someone had come across the same statement that I found about Prescott, and thought "If we place this to Prescott in the 1890s that sounds too respectable" and thus crossed out the name Prescott and put in Froom and crossed out 1890s and put in 1950s. Now I am not absolutely positive that they are the same quote but they are at least pretty close to being the same.

I'm sorry if it took out an old wound on you when you referred to Froom. I was a bit touchy here because I have been reading a fair number of documents from the early 1900s about us becoming more accepting of the trinity, and reading that accusation of Prescott, then someone from the anti-Trinitarian view comes along and places that whole part of our history into the 1950s and instead of blaming Prescott they blamed Froom.  

 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

 

lots of easily found sources:   from Ministry Magazine:  https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/2009/02/the-trinity.html

 

 

Quote

Jones emphasized Colossians 2:9 and the idea that in Christ was the “fullness of the Godhead bodily.” He also described Christ as “ ‘the eternal Word.’ ” (A. T. Jones,“The Third Angel’s Message Number 20,” General Conference Bulletin, February 27, 1895, 378; ibid., “The Third Angel’s Message Number 17,” General Conference Bulletin, February 25, 1895, p 332.) Though he avoided the word Trinity, in 1899 he wrote, “God is one. Jesus Christ is one. The Holy Spirit is one. And these three are one: there is no dissent nor division among them.” (A. T. Jones, editorial, Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, January 10, 1899, 24)

Ellen White played a prophetic role in confirming the eternal deity of Jesus and the Three-Person Godhead. As early as 1878, she referred to Jesus as the “eternal Son of God.” (Ellen G. White, Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, August 8, 1878, 49) In The Desire of Ages, she wrote, “[Christ] announced Himself to be the self-existent One” and “In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived.” (Ellen G. White, The Desire of Ages (Washington, DC: Review and Herald, 1898, p. 470, 530)  She wrote of the Holy Spirit as the “Third Person of the Godhead.” (ibid; p. 671).

 

[8thdaypriest]

23 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

It just might be that such a position could be debated.  Let us leave that alone.  If I were to say that it did place another mediator between us and

Christ, the question be:  In what sense does that mediation occur.   I would answer it this way:  The HS does mediate the truth of God in a manner that heavenly things may, at least in part, by understood by humans.  That may be said to be a role in our salvation in that it convicts us sin, the love of God and the need to repent and accept God's gift to us.

But, in no sense can that be said to be an active role in  making salvation possible for us as that role was assumed by
Christ and His earthly ministry.

mediator:

3316 mesi,thj mesites {mes-ee'-tace}
Meaning:  1) one who intervenes between two, either in order to make or restore peace and friendship, or form a compact, or for ratifying a covenant 2) a medium of communication, arbitrator

If indeed the Holy Spirit (as God) does all of the things you list, then God is placed BETWEEN Christ and man, rather than Christ "between God and man". 

 Even Mrs White said that Christ IS "the only medium of communication" between God and man. 

I don't think you can separate Christ's role of "making salvation possible" from His role as teacher to mankind, of the things of God.  Salvation is not possible in a vacuum without teaching mankind the ways of Yahweh, and bringing to mankind a knowledge of God's love.  If it were, then we would all be "saved" by what Christ did, and not by our response to what Christ did. 

Jesus came to restore the honor of God in the eyes of man, to win mankind back to God with a message of God's love.  There is no greater message of love than the cross. 

IF what I believe is true:  that God the Father poured HIS SPIRIT into His Son, enabling His Son to then be omnipresent through this Spirit, then JESUS would be the medium, the communicator, the one who explains the things of God the Father to humankind, the one who convicts of sin, and convicts of God's love. 

[8thdaypriest]

The word "sent". 

Why would God the Father have to SEND the Holy Spirit, IF they were of one mind and co-equal?  The word SENT implies that one person is above the other in a hierarchy.  God the Father always appears as HEAD, and above all.  He GIVES his spirit.  He SENT Christ to this earth.  Christ then GIVES the gift of the Spirit. 

There is only ONE THROWN.  The Father sits on that throne.  The Son shares His Father's thrown.  The Spirit HAS NO THROWN.  It has no name either.  It is never praised, and never glorified. 

[8thdaypriest]

16 minutes ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

Jones emphasized Colossians 2:9 and the idea that in Christ was the “fullness of the Godhead bodily.” He also described Christ as “ ‘the eternal Word.’ ” (A. T. Jones,“The Third Angel’s Message Number 20,” General Conference Bulletin, February 27, 1895, 378; ibid., “The Third Angel’s Message Number 17,” General Conference Bulletin, February 25, 1895, p 332.) Though he avoided the word Trinity, in 1899 he wrote, “God is one. Jesus Christ is one. The Holy Spirit is one. And these three are one: there is no dissent nor division among them.” (A. T. Jones, editorial, Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, January 10, 1899, 24)

Ellen White played a prophetic role in confirming the eternal deity of Jesus and the Three-Person Godhead. As early as 1878, she referred to Jesus as the “eternal Son of God.” (Ellen G. White, Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, August 8, 1878, 49) In The Desire of Ages, she wrote, “[Christ] announced Himself to be the self-existent One” and “In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived.” (Ellen G. White, The Desire of Ages (Washington, DC: Review and Herald, 1898, p. 470, 530)  She wrote of the Holy Spirit as the “Third Person of the Godhead.” (ibid; p. 671).

Yes Pam.  I'm convinced Mrs. White did come to believe in "God" as "three persons of the heavenly Trio".  But that's the problem. 

In the Bible I do not see THREE divine beings.  I see only God our Father who gave His beloved Son.  God's son inherited His divine nature from His Father. 

This is one of the main reasons I lost faith in EGW as a prophet of God.  I can quote her writings, but I read them just as I would any other commentary.  I believe they contain both truth and error. 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I posted the quote with the sources in response to APL's request to Kevin to provide sources..

[APL]

Sorry but no Pam, the quotes you provided do not fit what Kevin was talking about.  

And your quotes, example "In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived," does not fit either. Yes, in Christ is life original, unborrowed, underived. That is undisputed. The understanding of what that means is. And unlike 8thday, I do not see falsehood in EGW. I do see 2 beings. I do see 3 persons (personalities). The NATURE of the Holy Spirit is a mystery and no matter how many texts one quotes, it does not resolve the issue, and that according to EGW. I quote again, this published in 1911:

The nature of the Holy Spirit is a mystery. Men cannot explain it, because the Lord has not revealed it to them. Men having fanciful views may bring together passages of Scripture and put a human construction on them, but the acceptance of these views will not strengthen the church. Regarding such mysteries, which are too deep for human understanding, silence is golden. {AA 52.1}

 

And everyone thinks that they can understand the Spirit.  The Father and the Son are near identical.  They are not modal as Kevin claims.  Is the Spirit also identical?  We do not have the sure word of the Bible on that.

 

From eternity there was a complete unity between the Father and the Son. They were two, yet little short of being identical; two in individuality, yet one in spirit, and heart, and character. {YI, December 16, 1897 par. 5}

And who is to be worshipped and praised?

The Father and the Son alone are to be exalted. {YI, July 7, 1898 par. 2}

And through out the writings of EGW, when she refers to God, it is the Father. And it fits scripture too.

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

 

One does not need to buy into a creed such as the trinity creed.  Which trinity? The modal trinity?  The 3 in 1 trinity?  I repeat: Men having fanciful views may bring together passages of Scripture and put a human construction on them, but the acceptance of these views will not strengthen the church. Regarding such mysteries, which are too deep for human understanding, silence is golden. {AA 52.1}

 

4 hours ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

I posted the quote with the sources in response to APL's request to Kevin to provide sources..

 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

**sigh**  

The sources were to point out what A.T. Jones had written — not as sources to *prove* the existence of the trinity.

I'm done with this thread.  It's annoying.

[APL]

20 hours ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

**sigh**  

The sources were to point out what A.T. Jones had written — not as sources to *prove* the existence of the trinity.

I'm done with this thread.It's annoying.

<<< but you said>>>

I posted the quote with the sources in response to APL's request to Kevin to provide sources.. 

  I just requested that Kevin provide support for his claims.  Where was he talking about Jones?  Does this mean the smiley face is gone?  Stan's right again!

[Kevin H]

1 hour ago, APL said:

  I just requested that Kevin provide support for his claims.  Where was he talking about Jones?  Does this mean the smiley face is gone?  Stan's right again!

Have you footnoted and saved references for every document you ever read? As I said I came across the early 1900's comment while just browsing files at the Ellen G. White estate. I wish I knew how important some of those documents would have been in the future. Since I read them back someplace between 1983- 1985 school years. It was doing this that I came across the document that claimed that it was Prescott who brought the trinity idea into the church,  and it was a few years ago that I read the similar comment but where it was posted by a critic of the view of the trinity claiming that it was Froom who brought the trinity idea into the church, and I have heard a few others who have questioned the trinity repeat that quote.

While not positive you can probably find the quote about Prescott in a folder labeled the trinity in the White estate vault. And you can probably find that similar quote but applying it to Froom either in some of the older discussions here on the trinity. If I was still at Andrews I'd try to look up that Prescott quote to see if they did indeed use that quote but crossed out Prescott and 1890s and put in Froom and 1950s. Since I cannot go back and compare the two quotes all I can say is that I read the one quote about Prescott, and when I read that quote about Froom all I can say is "This sounds very familiar."

[8thdaypriest]

On 11/16/2016 at 11:41 PM, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

**sigh**  

The sources were to point out what A.T. Jones had written — not as sources to *prove* the existence of the trinity.

I'm done with this thread.  It's annoying.

I understand the feeling.

[Kevin H]

On ‎11‎/‎2‎/‎2016 at 2:12 AM, Kevin H said:

Satan has 3 deceptions. All other problems are ways how Satan applies these 3 deceptions to different aspects of life. These 3 deceptions are:

1. God is not God but a more highly evolved being who has no intrinsic right to place a law over us. He is therefore a cruel tyrant who is preventing us from evolving to his positon through imposing upon us the law of self sacrificing love that he does not keep. This way we are so busy caring about each other that we don't have time to develop ourselves to evolve into God. (thus seeing God, however powerful he may be, as still essentially a being like us and thus able to be overthrown).

Now Ii God is God and has the right to place a law over us, there are still problems, God claims to be just and merciful. For God to be just the sinner has to die. For God to be merciful he has to forgive them. So this leads into his second and third deception:

2. Since God is a tyrant Justice will prevail. God is going to get you for your sins.  God cannot uphold Justice and forgive sinners.

3. Since Jesus died on the cross that means that Mercy prevailed and that the law has been done away with.

These 3 deceptions attack different members of the trinity. The first one attack God the Father who is God as power and exaltation. The second attacks God the Son who died to deliver us from sin, the third attacks the Holy Spirit who write's God's law on our hearts.

 

The trinity are 3 revelations of God of three things that we need to know about God. First that he is of a different essence than we are, that he is the self existent all powerful creator and we are creatures. But this alone would scare us to death. We also need to know that the only way we can exist is in a relationship with this God, so we have God as our personal friend, one of us. God the son. But these two are objective revelations of God, we are both objective and subjective. The Holy Spirit is how God works with our subjective. It is only as we hold these three aspects in tension with each other that we can have a knowledge of God that is both necessary and sufficient. Satan's plan is to divide and conquer.

The book that I heard quoted where it appears that Mrs. White has the 3 deceptions of Satan and the 3 temptations of Christ are connected to the doctrine of the Trinity is "Redemption or the temptations of Christ in the Wilderness" by Ellen G. White 1874. From this came a shortened version called "Confrontation."

The first temptation was that God must be a tyrant to let Christ go hungry. The temptation to jump off the temple is that God will show mercy at the expense of Judgment, and if God is just and Jesus goes "Splat" on the ground then God is just and not merciful and he is a tyrant. The temptation on the high mountain where the devil showed the nations not as they really were but as he wanted them to appear to Christ. Thus bend reality around and make himself the center of reality rather than God. So that Jesus would over throw God's authority by manipulating reality, so that the source of final authority would either be Lucifer or Christ' self in his humanity, and avoid passing through the bitter cup he would have to drink and put the issue of redemption in the subjective state of his understanding (where the work of the Holy Spirit is to work with our subjective in response to the objective revelations of God as power and God as personal relationship, in us making a right choice based of the evidence.)

The 3 angels' messages are also focused on these 3 deceptions, the 3 temptations and the 3 aspects of the trinity. Mrs. White's philosophy of the  Great controversy is constantly focused on these 3 issues, and both her understanding of the cross and the Investigative Judgment are based around these same 3 issues. This also leads to the truth about how God destroys the sinner. The early questioning but not total rejection of the trinity lead us to be open to different understandings of the trinity which goes beyond the traditional Roman Catholic view.  This is why the trinity moved from an optional belief to the more central position. And if Satan can get us to read Mrs. White and the Bible but loose sight of these 3 issues, and give us a false view of hell, he can have us miss the framework and get us off on all sorts of side doctrines.

Also see the original Sanctuary and the Atonement the 3  chapters "The Mighty Opposites: the Atonement of Christ in the writings of Ellen G. White" and "All Must Appear : The Investigative Judgment in the writings of Ellen G. White" and also a new book "Ellen G. White Under Fire" by Jud Lake.

[8thdaypriest]

1 hour ago, Kevin H said:

The book that I heard quoted where it appears that Mrs. White has the 3 deceptions of Satan and the 3 temptations of Christ are connected to the doctrine of the Trinity is "Redemption or the temptations of Christ in the Wilderness" by Ellen G. White 1874. From this came a shortened version called "Confrontation."

The first temptation was that God must be a tyrant to let Christ go hungry. The temptation to jump off the temple is that God will show mercy at the expense of Judgment, and if God is just and Jesus goes "Splat" on the ground then God is just and not merciful and he is a tyrant. The temptation on the high mountain where the devil showed the nations not as they really were but as he wanted them to appear to Christ. Thus bend reality around and make himself the center of reality rather than God. So that Jesus would over throw God's authority by manipulating reality, so that the source of final authority would either be Lucifer or Christ' self in his humanity, and avoid passing through the bitter cup he would have to drink and put the issue of redemption in the subjective state of his understanding (where the work of the Holy Spirit is to work with our subjective in response to the objective revelations of God as power and God as personal relationship, in us making a right choice based of the evidence.)

The 3 angels' messages are also focused on these 3 deceptions, the 3 temptations and the 3 aspects of the trinity. Mrs. White's philosophy of the  Great controversy is constantly focused on these 3 issues, and both her understanding of the cross and the Investigative Judgment are based around these same 3 issues. This also leads to the truth about how God destroys the sinner. The early questioning but not total rejection of the trinity lead us to be open to different understandings of the trinity which goes beyond the traditional Roman Catholic view.  This is why the trinity moved from an optional belief to the more central position. And if Satan can get us to read Mrs. White and the Bible but loose sight of these 3 issues, and give us a false view of hell, he can have us miss the framework and get us off on all sorts of side doctrines.

Also see the original Sanctuary and the Atonement the 3  chapters "The Mighty Opposites: the Atonement of Christ in the writings of Ellen G. White" and "All Must Appear : The Investigative Judgment in the writings of Ellen G. White" and also a new book "Ellen G. White Under Fire" by Jud Lake.

All I can say Kevin, is IN YOUR OPINION. 

1.  Temptation to command the angels, without His Father's permission:  His hunger was simply used by Satan as incentive.  He was in fact, hungry.  This was a temptation to "go rogue" as it were.  Which is exactly what Satan did.  The doubt expressed by Satan, "If you are the Son of God" just pushed another button - the human desire for recognition. 

Jesus answer was essentially, "I'll check with my Father first."

2.  Temptation to throw Himself down from the pinnacle of the Temple - a SIN against the Father's LAW, which forbade presumption.   Again Satan began with "IF you are the Son of God" - insinuating doubt.  

3.  Tempted to take the easy way to power, avoiding the awful pain of the cross.  Satan no longer expressed doubt of Christ's identity.

Jesus responded "away with you Satan".  I will do it My Father's way.  I will not serve you.  Not even to avoid crucifixion. 

Kevin can make this about a Trinity, but I don't see it.  This is ALL ABOUT Jesus Christ and His loyalty and submission to the will of God His Father. 

 

[8thdaypriest]

A New Testament Review:  Matthew

Matthew 3:17  “And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, ‘This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased’” (See also Matt. 17:5, Mark 1:11, Mark 9:7, Luke 3:22 and Luke 9:35).

         NOTE: Jesus Christ is never called the “Son of the Spirit.” He is “the Son of the Father” in 2 John 1:3, and “the only begotten of the Father” in John 1:14.   

Matthew 5:16 “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.”

        We are never commanded to “glorify” the Spirit.

Matthew 5:45  “ . . . that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

Matthew 6:4 “ . . . that your charitable deed may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will Himself reward you openly.

Matthew 6:6  “Pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.” (See also Matt. 6:18.)

        This text implies that the Father is omnipresent - that He is Spirit.  This fits well with John Chapter 4, where Christ told the woman at the well that “God is Spirit.” He also said, “the Father is    seeking such to worship Him” implying that the God who “is Spirit” is also “the Father.”  
 

     Matthew 6:9-13 “In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven.  Give us this day our daily bread.  And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors.  And do not lead us into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.”

     We read nothing of the “will of the Spirit.” When Christ prayed, “not my will but thine be done” this revealed two separate wills - therefore two separate individuals.  At the final end of the sin conflict, “the Son Himself will also be subject to Him (the Father) who put all things under Him” (1 Cor. 15:24-28).  This also reveals two divine beings, the Father and His Son.  One is subordinate to the other.  

The kingdom is ultimately the Father’s kingdom (Matt. 6:9-13, Matt. 13:43, Matt 26:29).  
The Father is head of Christ, Who is head of mankind (1Cor. 11:3).
The Father has given to Christ, the kingdom - but under the Father (Lk. 22:29, Dan. 7:13-14).

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.”

     The Father’s will is presented in Scripture, as supreme.

Matthew 10:32 “Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven.  But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven." 

         Not once, do we read of Jesus confessing before the Spirit, or pleading with the Spirit. 

Matthew 11:25-27 “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, . . .  All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father.  Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

        So - the spirit does NOT "know the Father", and the spirit does not "know the Son". 

Matthew 12:18 [God speaking] “Behold! My Servant whom I have chosen, My Beloved in whom My soul is well pleased! I will put My Spirit upon Him, And He will declare justice to the   Gentiles.”

       The Father gave His Spirit to His Son.  Again - Two divine beings.

Matthew 18:14  “It is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.”

Matthew 18:19  “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven.

Matthew 20:23  “So He said to them, “You will indeed drink My cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with; but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give,  but it is for those for whom it is prepared by My Father.” 

    Here again - two wills are revealed.  Positions within the kingdom were “not Mine to give” (not my will) but instead are awarded according to the will of “My Father.”  

Matthew 23:9 “Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.”

Matthew 24:36  “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.”                   

    If God is three simultaneous manifestations of one divine being, then how could one manifestation “know” something which the other “manifestation” did not know?  Jesus said that He - at that time -  did not know “that day and hour” when He would return (Mark 13:32).  ONLY the Father knew. 

Matthew 26:39 “He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, ‘O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.’”

    The action of two separate wills, demonstrates two separate divine individuals - the Father and His Son.  Christ said, “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me” (John 6:38).   “I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me” (John 5:30).  Two separate wills!

Matthew 28:18  “Then Jesus came and spoke to them saying, ‘All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.’”  

    NOTE:  This is the same as saying that “all things are put under his feet” (1Cor. 15:25-28).  And who gave Him this authority?  The Father!  “The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand” (John 3:34-35).

     “The Lord will be king over all the earth; in that day the Lord will be (the only) one, and His name (the only) one” (Zech. 14:9).  This Lord Who will be king over all the earth is the Father, according to 1Cor. 15:24-28.  Christ will deliver the kingdom to God the Father, and will then Himself be subject to His Father.  The saved of earth will have written in their foreheads the name of the Father.  He is the One Who sits on the throne (Rev. 22:3-4; Rev. 14:1).

This is just a review of Matthew.  Where does the weight of the evidence fall????  One Being who manifests in three ways?  Three separate divine Beings?  Or God our Father and Christ His Son? 

[8thdaypriest]

On my website, there is a verse by verse review of the entire New Testament, looking at every verse where Jesus mentioned His Father, or prayed to His Father. 

http://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/44f-Part 6 TR-NT.pdf

Not once does Christ address another divine being. 

[Ron Amnsn]

On 11/15/2016 at 2:25 PM, JoeMo said:

He was begotten before the creation of the earth. (Prov. 8:22-31)

I don't think Proverbs 8 is talking about the begotten Son of God.  Proverbs 8 appears to be written by a female personification of "wisdom" and "understanding".

[Ron Amnsn]

On 11/15/2016 at 8:29 AM, The Wanderer said:

Whenever someone goes ant-trinity crazy on me, I tend to gravitate to the following text:

Quote

Joh 15:1  I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Joh 15:2  Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Joh 15:3  Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4  Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5  I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6  If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Joh 15:7  If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Joh 15:8  Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
Joh 15:9  As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love

 

That's a great text. But I don't see the trinity mentioned in it.  Which part speaks of the Holy Spirit as a personal being that is separate from the Father in some way?

[Ron Amnsn]

I have re-read it.  It seems to be a character judgment, as "anti-trinity crazy" is.

[Ron Amnsn]

On 11/14/2016 at 1:28 AM, The Wanderer said:

This "denial"  of the Fatherhood of The Father thing, I believe, would be called a red herring. The Person-hood of The Spirit confirms not only the Fatherhood of God the Father, but also of God the Son. There is no way to get out of it. The Bible very clearly makes all three out to be separate personalities that collectively mean, or make, "one God"

How would the assertion of the person-hood of the Holy Spirit confirm the fatherhood of God the Father? 

Matthew and Luke make it clear that the Holy Spirit was responsible for the conception of Jesus.  That is no problem for someone with a Hebraic understanding of Scripture because the spirit of YHWH is considered to be an intrinsic part of the Father (rather than a separate personality), just as the mouth of YHWH, and the glory of YHWH, and the breath of YHWH are all intrinsic aspects of the Father under the direct control of God the Father.  So when the Father's spirit begat the Son, it was the Father himself carrying out his primary attribute -- being a Father. 

But when the trinity doctrine makes the Father and the Holy Spirit out to be separate personalities, what is left for the Father himself to do to earn or demonstrate his title and primary attribute as the "Father"?  In other words, since the Holy Spirit conceived the Son, and is considered by the trinity doctrine to be a separate personality from the Father, why is the Father called "God the Father" and not "God the King" or "God the godfather"?  What exactly is father-ish about God the Father, if the Holy Spirit is a separate personality?

From what you've said so far, under the trinity doctrine it seems that the Father's only claim to fatherhood would be by virtue of being a co-member of the trinity alongside the Holy Spirit.  As my teenage daughter pointed out about the trinity doctrine, God the Son could then be considered to be his own father, because God the Son is also a co-member of the trinity alongside the Holy Spirit (just as the Father is) and would therefore be just as much his own father as the Father is his father.  Does that make sense?

I realize that finite humans cannot understand or describe the infinite God.  However, it seems that a necessary and true doctrine would not make nonsense of the descriptive attributes and titles that God has revealed about himself in Scripture, as the trinity doctrine seems to do.

[8thdaypriest]

6 hours ago, Ron Amnsn said:

I don't think Proverbs 8 is talking about the begotten Son of God.  Proverbs 8 appears to be written by a female personification of "wisdom" and "understanding".

I disagree Ron.  But that's my opinion. 

Paul called Jesus "the power of God and the WISDOM of God" (1 Cor. 1:24).  He also said Jesus "became for us wisdom from God" (1Cor. 1:30).  I wonder where Paul got that idea, except from Proverbs 8.

[8thdaypriest]

3 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Ron. I am going to ask that you re read the text again very carefully and consider why I might have referenced that text under the current subject.

Merry. Christmas. ?

I don't DO Christ-mass.  It's origin is pagan.  It was NOT instituted by God. 

Christ was most probably born at the Feast of Tabernacles.  Joseph with Mary traveled to Jerusalem for the FEAST.  (The Romans were smart.  They timed the tax to coincide with the feast.)  Joseph had many relatives at Bethlehem - his ancestral home.  The would NOT need an "inn".  But there was no separate place prepared for Mary, to complete the period of separation following childbirth.  She would be unclean for a period of time.  THAT is why she was given the stable with lots of clean straw.  Such was common among the poor of that time period. 

But have a blessed Thanksgiving.  That one I can support.  I'm for thanking God - any time.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

15 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

Lol. You sound like one of the "hard cores" that call him "Satan Clause."  Do you "correct" everyone that mentions the word "Christmas" like you just did here? Boy...you must get pretty busy this time of year. ?

unnecessary comment...

[Ulunruh]

3 hours ago, Ron Amnsn said:

But when the trinity doctrine makes the Father and the Holy Spirit out to be separate personalities, what is left for the Father himself to do to earn or demonstrate his title and primary attribute as the "Father"?  In other words, since the Holy Spirit conceived the Son, and is considered by the trinity doctrine to be a separate personality from the Father, why is the Father called "God the Father" and not "God the King" or "God the godfather"?  What exactly is father-ish about God the Father, if the Holy Spirit is a separate personality?

Did Christ begin His existence at conception?    I don't think we believe that.  So  then  the above argument really is irrelevant.     What happened at the incarnation is a mystery we don't understand -- how did the eternal Creator of the universe became an embryo in the womb of a woman?      It wasn't a matter of the beginning of a living being as in the natural conception process.  We aren't dealing with who "conceived" Christ -- because Christ pre-existed -- 

Phil.  2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 
 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 
 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 

The incarnation involved God the Father, Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

Christ is speaking in this passage in Isaiah:

Isaiah 48:16 "Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there I am: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me". 

And He says John 8:42  "Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love and recognize Me, for I came from God [out of His very presence] and have arrived here. For I have not even come on My own initiative [as self-appointed], but He [is the One who] sent Me.
John 16:28 I came from the Father and have come into the world; again, I am leaving the world and going to the Father.”  (AMP)

Jesus wasn't conceived into existence here, He already existed from eternity, sitting on the throne with God the Father, Creator and sustainer of the universe.  
At the incarnation He came down -- the active agent was the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit was the active agent just like at Creation, Christ was the active agent even though Creation was a project of the full Godhead.

[Ulunruh]

Biblical evidence that the Holy Spirit is a separate being within the Godhead, not just some powerful essence flowing out from God.

John 14-16 speaks of the Holy Spirit.   Jesus prays to the Father to send ANOTHER comforter.   What does "another" signify?  Even though the Greek word for "SPIRIT" is a "neuter" gender, (IT) Jesus  uses the masculine pronouns (HE, HIS) to replace the neuter form the word spirit usually carries(John 14:26; 15:26; 16:13) even though syntactical that was inconsistent.

 

Also the HOLY SPIRIT is endowed with very "personal" characteristics like:
Intelligence and knowledge, feelings and teaching ability.

(John 14:26) "for He will teach you all things".
1 Cor. 2:13,14 He teaches us spiritual things, helping us to discern spiritual things
(1 Cor. 12:11),He makes decisions --deciding who gets what spiritual gift
He has emotions and can be grieved (Eph. 4:30)
Romans 8:26 "The Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

(John 16:8) He convicts of sin, of righteousness and judgment
Rev. 22:17 He invites people to "come"
(Matt. 12:31, Mark 3:29) He can be sinned and blasphemed against, which can lead to the unpardonable sin
"The Spirit Himself bears witness.... that we are children of God (Romans 8:16

He speaks (Acts 8:29)
teaches (Luke 12:12)
reveals (Luke 2:26)
testifies (Acts 20:23)
searches (1 Cor. 2:10,11)
He sets people apart for service and sends them on their way (Acts 13:2,4)
He commands and guides (Acts 8:29)
He declares things to come (John 16:13)

Romans 8:5 He sets our minds on the things of God
Romans 8:13 Through the Spirit we put to death the deeds of the body

Peter says:-- Acts 5:3-5 Why did you lie to the Holy Spirit, ...you have lied to God.

Hebrews 9:14 says the Holy Spirit is eternal.

Romans 15:30 says the Holy Spirit loves.

1 Cor. 12:11 says the Holy Spirit divides gifts to every man as HE wills.

He has a will. He has emotions. He has a mind.

Romans 8:27 He that searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because He makes intercession....

In John 14-16 Christ referred to the Holy Spirit 24 times with personal PRONOUNS. HE, HIM. He addresses the Holy Spirit as a person, and treats Him as a person. He calls Him the Paraclete, which is a title which could only be held by a person.

The Paraclete, is "ANOTHER Counselor" (John 14:16) who will come and instruct.  It is not Christ, but "another".

"The Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my (in Christ's)  name, He will teach you all things (14:26)

"When the Spirit of truth comes, HE will guide you into all truth, for HE will... glorify ME, for HE will take what is mine and declare it to you (16:13-14)

The Bible speaks of Him as:
1. The Spirit Himself (Romans 8:16; 8:26)
2. The Spirit of God (Romans 8:9; 8:14)
3. The Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9)

The Spirit is all the fullness of the Godhead, making manifest the power of divine grace to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Saviour.

The Holy Spirit never draws attention to Himself -- but to Christ who was given the responsibility of bringing salvation to the human race.

The Holy Spirit glorifies Christ (John 16:13-14)
Christ glorifies the Father
The Father glorifies Christ, with the glory Christ had before the world (John 17:5)