The Trinity doctrine

[LifeHiscost]

45 minutes ago, CoAspen said:

 

"One thing that is missing in all of this.....Why? Are? We? Concerned?

Is it about being right?

Is it about being more 'studious'?

Is it about unhappiness with church doctrine?

What is or is not at stake here....anything or nothing?"

I know that I am often under assault by the enemy of souls and appreciate every bit of grace I can receive from the Father of lights.

16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you......John14

God is Love!~Jesus saves         

[Ron Amnsn]

19 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

When we look at Bible texts only...its impossible to miss how Jesus and the Father reflected on The Spirit by calling Him. ANOTHER Comforter...not a piece of one of them but ANOTHER one of them.

Is there a Bible passage that identifies what the first "comforter" is?  It seems that might be important in identifying what the "another comforter" is.

[JoeMo]

"Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the Lord hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted." (Is 49.13)

"For the Lord shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the Lord; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody.   Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people." (Is 51:3-4)

"The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;  To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified." (Is 61:1-3)

"I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow." (Jer. 31:13)

"Thus saith the Lord of hosts; My cities through prosperity shall yet be spread abroad; and the Lord shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem." (Zech 1:17)

" Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."  (Matt. 28:20)

I infer from these verses that the Comforter has been and always will be Jesus - in physical or spiritual form.  If Jesus is with us until the end of the age, it seems "another Comforter" would be the presence of Jesus' Spirit rather than His physical presence.

I really liked Ron A.'s post about "ruah YWVH".

20 hours ago, Ron Amnsn said:

Which passages of the Hebrew Scriptures would have shown the ancient readers that "ruah YHWH" should bring to mind the idea of an intelligent divine spirit that thinks separately from YHWH himself, instead of the using the more usual meaning of ruah to bring to mind the concept of the "breath of YHWH" wherever "ruah YHWH" appears throughout the Old Testament?  There may be some passages that clearly teach this concept.  I haven't seen them yet.

 

[JoeMo]

10 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Did your boss say you could do this on company time?

Really off topic.  If it's any of your business, my job involves managing processes and fixing stuff if it's broken.  It is task-oriented rather than "9 to 5" - much of that time being "on-call".  Some days are 12 hours long; some are cramming 5 hours of work into 9 hours.  As long as I get my work done on time and with added value, they don't mind some social interaction during work hours, as long as I'm not watching porn or hacking into private databases.

[8thdaypriest]

17 hours ago, Samie said:

I believe the incarnation of Christ as the manifestation of the saving act of God that same day Adam fell into sin, when He implemented the plan of salvation He devised before the foundation of the world (2 Tim 1:8-10), by saving Adam through Christ (Acts 4:12) that same day and reinstated him to his pre-fall spiritual status, an act that cost the Father His only begotten Son - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8)!  With Adam in Christ, all his descendants are born in Christ, instead of born in sin.

Here we go again Samie.  Inserting your teaching that God has already "saved" all mankind, and that He "saved" them on the very day that Adam sinned. 

This thread is ABOUT the nature of the holy Spirit.  Who or what, is the Spirit with us. 

[JoeMo]

4 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

This thread is ABOUT the nature of the holy Spirit.  Who or what, is the Spirit with us. 

There are several threads out there proclaiming universal salvation, Samie - most of them dominated by you.  If you want to talk about the Trinity doctrine, please join in.  If you want to talk about (your) doctrine of universal salvation, please use one of the other threads.

[8thdaypriest]

11 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Repeatedly, Jesus has promised the Gift of The Holy Spirit to His Church, and the promise belongs to us, just as much as it did to the very first disciples.Of the Spirit Jesus said, "He shall glorify Me." The Saviour came to glorify the Father by the demonstration of His love; so the Spirit was to glorify Christ by revealing His grace to the world. The very image of God is to be reproduced in humanity. The honor of God, the honor of Christ, is involved in the perfection of the character of His people.  {DA 671.3}

Jesus' last public prayer was addressed to His FATHER (John Chapter 17).   Jesus prayed, "I have glorified You on the earth.  I have finished the work which which You have given Me to do.  And now, Oh Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was." 

Jesus asked His Father to glorify Him.  And HOW did the Father glorify His Son?  The Father filled His Son with His own spirit, without measure - thus returning to Christ his power to be omnipresent. 

[8thdaypriest]

Ephesians 2:18 "For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father." (NKJ)

Through Jesus - we have access - to the Father. 

 "No man comes to the Father, except through me" (John 14:6). 

God the Father is the FOCUS of our worship, and the END POINT of our journey.

That is because God our Father is "the only true God" (per Jesus speaking in John 17:3). 

Paul wrote, "one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Eph 4:6 NKJ)   If the Father is omnipresent by His spirit, I don't see the need of a third divine being. 

Jesus said, My Father is "greater than all" (John 10:29) and "My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28)   No mention of another divine being in either passage, and God the Father is GREATER than anyone or anything. 

I will repeat Ephesians 2:18 asking what is the "one Spirit" by which (or by whom) we have access to the Father. 

Ephesians 2:18 "For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father." (NKJ)

Is our access to God the Father only through Christ?   Or - is it also by (or through) ANOTHER divine being?  Which would mean the action of the OTHER divine being is ESSENTIAL, or we cannot have access to God our Father.  (There is no mention of our access to that OTHER divine being - who IS also "God", according to the Trinity doctrine.)  But that would mean this OTHER divine being is acting as a mediator BETWEEN God the Father and human kind. 

What makes sense to me, is that Christ "BECAME a life giving Spirit" (1Cor 15:41), and it is by this Spirit (the Spirit that IS Christ Himself) that we have access to God our Father. 

[Ron Amnsn]

19 hours ago, CoAspen said:

One thing that is missing in all of this.....Why? Are? We? Concerned?
Is it about being right?
Is it about being more 'studious'?
Is it about unhappiness with church doctrine?
What is or is not at stake here....anything or nothing?

I am concerned about the trinity doctrine because it is one of the obstacles that prevents religious Jews from accepting Yeshua (Jesus) as the Messiah.  The Scriptures and the Jews emphasize the unity or one-ness of God, while modern Christians emphasize the three-ness of God as taught by the trinity doctrine outside of Scripture. The Jews may be correct, or the trinitarians may be correct, or both groups may have drifted away from what Scripture really teaches.  If trinitarians were going to effectively take the Gospel "to the Jew first" (Romans 1:16) as the apostle Paul did, it seems that some of the issues would need to be resolved in a Scriptural way.

[Gregory Matthews]

Both 8thd Day Priest and JoMo have commented on Samie inserting his views on a doctrine unrelated to the purpose of this thread and suggested that he take that discussion elsewhere.

On the one hand, that suggestion is appropriate.  Probably most people would want a thread to continue on in discussion as to the main purpose. 

However, I am probably a bit more liberal on this point that others may be.

In discussions people who are  discussing the main issue often make comments that are tangential to that main issue.  In my thinking, when that is done, it is appropriate for someone to comment on that tangential issue.  When this happens, the appropriate response is for people who do not want the main issue to be side-tracked to simply ignore that tangential comment.

As  I review the posting, I believe that Samie commented on a tangential issue that 8th Day Priest introduced in a comment that she made.  Therefore, while I understand why Rachel and JoMo might want the discussion to go off in that direction, I believe that Samie was justified in responding to that aspect of Rachel's comment. 

So, as I said, simply ignore it and let it die of itself.

[Ron Amnsn]

2 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

May I ask what or who you think the "1st Comforter" is? And how you reached that conclusion?

I haven't reached a conclusion.  I was hoping someone had an answer.  From the passages about YHWH comforting Israel that JoeMo posted, it sounds the like YHWH himself is the most likely candidate so far to be the 1st comforter.

[Samie]

7 hours ago, Ron Amnsn said:

I am concerned about the trinity doctrine because it is one of the obstacles that prevents religious Jews from accepting Yeshua (Jesus) as the Messiah.  The Scriptures and the Jews emphasize the unity or one-ness of God, while modern Christians emphasize the three-ness of God as taught by the trinity doctrine outside of Scripture. The Jews may be correct, or the trinitarians may be correct, or both groups may have drifted away from what Scripture really teaches.  If trinitarians were going to effectively take the Gospel "to the Jew first" (Romans 1:16) as the apostle Paul did, it seems that some of the issues would need to be resolved in a Scriptural way.

I think Scriptures do not support the trinity doctrine - three persons in one God. Instead, the Bible teaches a one-person God and no one else besides.

Moses proclaimed it: KJV Deuteronomy 4:35   Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.

Solomon spoke about it:  KJV 1 Kings 8:60   That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.

Isaiah recorded God speaking about it: KJV Isaiah 45:5   I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me:

Jesus Himself said the Father is the only true God: KJV John 17:3  And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God ...

The apostle Paul preached it: KJV 1 Corinthians 8:5-6  5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)  6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

On the other hand, the trinity doctrine cannot find refuge in Scriptures. 

Lest I be misunderstood, while I believe the Father is the only one God, the Supreme Ruler of the whole universe, Jesus Christ shares with the Father His attributes of being "God",  along with the Holy Spirit, a separate entity from both the Father and the Son. They 3 alone have the attributes of being "God" - (the word "God" used not as supreme ruler but in generic reference to nature of existence just like the word "angels", "plants", etc.), BUT of them three, only the Father carries the title God. Hence, there is only One God - the Father, whose revealed personal name is the Tetragrammaton  -  hw"hoy - in the OT.

[Ron Amnsn]

"for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit." (Matt 1:20)
I noticed today that the word translated as "conceived" is a form of the same Greek verb (Strongs #G1080) that is often translated as "begat" and "begotten" in the New Testament and in the Septuagint.
A translator's note in the NASB says that "conceived" is literally "begotten". Youngs literal translation renders it as,
"for that which in her was begotten is of the Holy Spirit."

Because Matthew and Luke tell us when and where in the story Jesus was begotten, that seems to reduce the possibility that the begotten-ness of Jesus occurred in some mystical manner in heaven in the unknown past of eternity sometime before the actual incarnation.

[phkrause]

1 hour ago, Ron Amnsn said:

I haven't reached a conclusion.  I was hoping someone had an answer.  From the passages about YHWH comforting Israel that JoeMo posted, it sounds the like YHWH himself is the most likely candidate so far to be the 1st comforter.

Ron, wasn't Jesus called the comforter and thereby he would be the first comforter??

[Ron Amnsn]

14 hours ago, phkrause said:

Ron, wasn't Jesus called the comforter and thereby he would be the first comforter??

Which Bible passages are you thinking of?

[phkrause]

6 hours ago, Ron Amnsn said:

Which Bible passages are you thinking of?

I wasn't actually thinking of a Bible passage, but was thinking that I've heard or read that before! Was really asking if that is what he was called?? I have looked at a few Bible translations and have personally not read that as of yet!

[8thdaypriest]

I do believe that Jesus - the man - began to exist in the womb of Mary his mother. 

But I also believe "the Angel of His presence" (the Messenger of Yahweh's presence) WAS the Son of God.  And as God's "son" He began to EXIST long BEFORE He took on human nature.

Remember:  Jesus said that "no man has SEEN the Father" (  ).

He appeared to Abraham. 

Genesis  17:1-22  “When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD [ADONAI] appeared to Abram and said to him,  ‘I am Almighty God [El Shaddai]; walk before Me and be blameless. And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.’” ... “Then He finished talking with him, and God [‘elohiym] went up from Abraham.”

Genesis 18:1-33 “Then the Lord [Yehovah] appeared to him [Abraham] by the terebinth trees of Mamre” . . . “three men were standing by him.”
        [One of the men said to Abraham] “I will certainly return to you according to the time of life, and behold, Sarah your wife shall have a son” (v.10).   
        [As the “men” are ready to depart] “And the Lord [ADONAI] said, ‘Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing . . .?” (v.17).

Genesis 22:1-18  “But the Angel of the LORD [Yehovah] called to him from heaven and said, ‘Abraham, Abraham!’ And he said, ‘Here I am.’ And He said, ‘Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son your only son, from Me.’”

Exodus 6:3  “And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.”

HE appeared to the elders of Israel, on Mount Sinai, standing on a blue pavement.

Exodus 24:11 "But on the nobles of the children of Israel He did not lay His hand. So they saw God, and they ate and drank."

If no man has seen the Father, then who did these men SEE?

Jacob wrestled with HIM:

    Genesis 32:24-30  Jacob wrestled with “a Man” who blessed him and changed his name to Israel.  Jacob said “I have seen God [‘elohiym] face to face and my life has been preserved.”

    Hosea 12:3  Writing of Jacob and the Angel, Hosea says of Jacob, “He struggled with God.”

The Angel of the LORD spoke as Yahweh - to Moses:

Exodus  3:2-6 “And the Angel of the LORD [Yehovah] appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of the burning bush:”(v.4).  “God [‘elohiym] called to him out of the midst of the bush,”(v.5). “Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.”(v.6). “I am the God [‘elohiym] of your father--the God [‘elohiym] of Abraham, the God [‘elohiym] of Isaac, and the God [‘elohiym] of Jacob.”

Exodus 33:9-11  “. . . the pillar of cloud descended and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the LORD talked with Moses.”  “So the LORD [Yehovah] spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend.”  

    From Exo. 33:18-23, we understand that Moses did NOT “see” the face of Yahweh.  My point here, is that the Angel of Yahweh speaks the words of the LORD.  He speaks AS the LORD, and is called Yahweh.

Exodus 23:20-21 “And God [‘elohiym] spoke all these words, saying . . .” (Exo 20:1).  “Behold, I send an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place I have prepared.  Beware of Him and obey His voice: do not provoke Him for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him.”

    NOTE:  To an ancient Israelite - to Moses, the phrase “My name is in Him” meant, “He is My Son.”

Judges 2:1-2  “And the Angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I swore unto Your fathers, and I said, I will never break My covenant with you.”  “. . . but you have not obeyed My voice” (v.2).

When Christ came to earth as a man, He said, “I have come in my Father’s name” (John 5:43).  When the Son acted as the agent of His Father, He took His Father’s name.  

    The same applies, when He acted for His Father as “the Angel of the LORD” during the period called ‘the Old Testament.”

Isaiah 63:9  “In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the Angel of His presence saved them.”
    
    Christ is The Messenger of the Lord's presence, the mediator between God and men.
    (See 1Cor. 10:1-4.)  He is the "comforter" of the OT.

Numbers 22:32  “The Angel of the Lord [Yehovah] said to him . . . ‘your way is perverse before Me.’”

    The Angel did NOT say, “Your way is perverse before the LORD”

Joshua 5:13-15  “And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, a Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, ‘Are You for us or for our adversaries?’ So He said, ‘No, but as Commander of the army of the LORD [Yehovah] I have now come.’ And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped.

He appeared to Gideon, and to Samson's father.

He appeared to Daniel. 

 

 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

    1 Thessalonians 4:16  “For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the Archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God.  And the dead in Christ will rise first;” RSV

        John 5:25  Yeshua said, “The dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God.”  

    Put these two verses together.  The “voice is the Son of God” IS the “Archangel’s call.”
    He IS the Archangel - the Chief Messenger, the "Word" who was with God, and was God. 
    Certainly no one thinks that an angel can raise the dead.

[8thdaypriest]

Just now, 8thdaypriest said:

    1 Thessalonians 4:16  “For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the Archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God.  And the dead in Christ will rise first;” RSV

        John 5:25  Yeshua said, “The dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God.”  

    Put these two verses together.  The “voice is the Son of God” IS the “Archangel’s call.”
    He IS the Archangel - the Chief Messenger, the "Word" who was with God, and was God. 
    Certainly no one thinks that an angel can raise the dead.

And if Michael is the name of the pre-incarnate Son of God, then He was "the Angel of the LORD" in all those passages I just quoted. 

[8thdaypriest]

Philippians 2:5  Prior to His incarnation, the Son of God existed “in the form of God” but did not “consider it robbery [something to be grasped] to be equal with God.”

    Hebrews 1:3  Prior to His incarnation, the Son of God was “the brightness” of His Father’s glory” and “the express image of His person.”  He upheld “all things by the word of His power.”

    Hebrews 1:2  Prior to His incarnation, the Son of God was the agent “through whom” the Father “made the worlds.” (See also I Cor 8:6, Jn 1:3, Eph 3:9, Col 1:19.)

Hebrews 1:8-10 “But to the son He says: ‘Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.  You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than your companions.’  And: ‘You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.”

If HE created all things, then certainly He EXISTED.  And God called Him God.  That being said, He also has one who is above Him - "God, Your God" - God the Father. 

[8thdaypriest]

6 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

And if Michael is the name of the pre-incarnate Son of God, then He was "the Angel of the LORD" in all those passages I just quoted. 

Michael - the Prince of Israel - was the comforter of Israel all through the OT. 

Now Jesus - the transformed Prince of Israel (transformed by his incarnation), is the Comforter of Israel. 

[APL]

On 11/17/2016 at 7:49 PM, Kevin H said:

Have you footnoted and saved references for every document you ever read? As I said I came across the early 1900's comment while just browsing files at the Ellen G. White estate. I wish I knew how important some of those documents would have been in the future. Since I read them back someplace between 1983- 1985 school years. 

Yes - I try to have references for the things I post.  You apparently trust your memory, I don't trust mine for something back in the 1980s without the source data.  I like to have the references and read them in context so that I can see that they are not quoted in isolation.  

[phkrause]

19 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Well; we are in agreement on this point Ron! I didnt have to read whatever JoMo posted because as soon as Jesus said "another Comforter" I will send you," it was easy to see that He was indicating Himself and the first Comforter.

I bolded the word that I am thinking that you meant "as" and not "and?" I could be wrong though!!

[8thdaypriest]

If the Son of God could "incarnate" to take on human form, why is it so difficult to believe that He could change FORM once again - into a "spiritual body", to become the Spirit comforter with us? 

Won't we all be "changed" at the Second Coming, and receive "spiritual bodies", so that we will be "like Him" - at least in the type of "form" that we will have.

[phkrause]

On 11/23/2016 at 10:56 PM, phkrause said:

Ron, wasn't Jesus called the comforter and thereby he would be the first comforter??

 

On 11/24/2016 at 1:45 PM, Ron Amnsn said:

Which Bible passages are you thinking of?

Well as it so happens, I'm watching a older prophecy series by DB, an a verse that came up was John14:26, which reads:

KJV - But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

NKJV - But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

CJB - But the Counselor, the Ruach HaKodesh, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything; that is, he will remind you of everything I have said to you.

And also from the SDA Bible Commentary, book #8, page 505 it reads: On his last night with his disciples Jesus promised "another Comforter" who would abide with His followers forever (Jn 14:16). The term "parakletos," translated "Comforter" (KJV), "Counselor" (RSV), means, literally, "one called alongside." The promised Holy Spirit was to carry on the functions of Jesus in all the world throughout all ages.