The Trinity doctrine

[Gregory Matthews]

Rachel often does not represent Seventh-day Adventist thought in her posts, as she does not consider herself to be a SDA.  But, there are times when she does represent SDA thought, at least in part.

It is in this respect that Rachel has been proclaiming in several posts a partial SDA belief.

Archangel:  Rachael clearly states that Biblically Michael, the Archangel is Christ.  That is SDA teaching and has been for years.  For a statement on this, see Vol 10 of the SDABC, page 878 & 879.  There many other references that would support this view.

However, the SDA position goes a bit beyond what might be the   common thinking  that equates Michael the Archangel with being a created angel.

As the above says, Christ, the archangel is: 

. . not in the sense of being the highest angel (chief among equals), but of being ruler over the angelic hosts (as infinitely superior to them).

 

 

[Kevin H]

Also there is apparently a strong literary connection with Joshua's "The Captain of the Lord's Host" and Daniel's "Prince of the Hosts" indicating that they are both the same person. When John wanted to bow down to an angel he was told not to do it, but when Joshua bowed to the Captain of the Lord's hosts/the prince of the hosts/Michael, he was told that bowing was not good enough he also needed to remove his sandals because he was on holy ground.

Rachael, you may enjoy reading "The God of Old" by Rabbi James  Kugel.

[8thdaypriest]

12 hours ago, Kevin H said:

Also there is apparently a strong literary connection with Joshua's "The Captain of the Lord's Host" and Daniel's "Prince of the Hosts" indicating that they are both the same person. When John wanted to bow down to an angel he was told not to do it, but when Joshua bowed to the Captain of the Lord's hosts/the prince of the hosts/Michael, he was told that bowing was not good enough he also needed to remove his sandals because he was on holy ground.

Rachael, you may enjoy reading "The God of Old" by Rabbi James  Kugel.

There is also a study on my website:  http://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/11-The Mediator.pdf

The study is titled "The Mediator".

[8thdaypriest]

Compare the description of the "man clothed in linen" whom Daniel saw, with John's description of the Son of God in Revelation Chapters 10-18.  This wouldn't do Martn any good, since he believes the entire New Testament was made up, at least where Jesus was "the son of God" or the only way to the Father.  But it might help others.  I definitely believe the Son of God was the "comforter" of mankind during the period of the OT.  And the risen/ascended/glorified Christ is the comforter NOW - as the Spirit with us.

REVELATION
 Chapt. 1:10-18
I am the Alpha and Omega. (1:11)
I am the First and the Last. (1:17)
I am He who lives, and was dead. (1:18)
Clothed with garment to feet. (1:13)
Golden band around chest. (1:13)

Eyes like a flame of fire. (1:14)
Countenance like the sun. (1:16)
Feet like fine brass (1:15)
Standing/walking - in the midst of
seven lampstands.  (1:13, 2:2)
Loud voice as of a trumpet. (1:10)
Voice as sound of many waters. (1:15)

REVELATION  Chapt. 10

Clothed with a cloud (10:1)
Rainbow was on his head (10:1)

Face was like the sun. (10:1)
Feet like pillars of fire. (10:1)
Set his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land. (10:2)
Cried with a loud voice as when a lion roars. (10:3)
Swore by Him who lives forever and ever. (10:6)

DANIEL
Chapter 12

Man clothed in linen. (10:5, 12:6-7)
Waist girded with gold. (10:5)
Body was like beryl (10:6)
Eyes like torches of fire (10:6)
Face like lightning. (10:6)
Arms and feet like
burnished bronze in color. (10:6)
Who was above the waters
of the river - (12:6)
Sound of his words like the voice of a multitude. (10:6)
swore by Him who lives forever. (12:7)

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

Oops!  Wrong verse.  Thank you Wanderer.

1 Corinthians 15:45 "Thus it is written, 'The first man, Adam, became a living being'; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit." (NRS)

1 Corinthians 15:45 "So it is written: 'The first man Adam became a living being'; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit." (NIV)

I try to weigh all the texts and passages, in context, to see where the weight of the evidence falls.  At this point in my study, I feel the weight falls heavily towards TWO divine beings - not three.  The TWO are Father and Son - original divine being and begotten divine being. 

My devotional book had this verse just this morning: 

Colossians 1:12  "and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light. 13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, (NIV)

Only two divine beings mentioned here.  Verses like this one are all over the NT. 

In order to believe that the Spirit is a THIRD divine being (rather than the spirit OF the Father, which comes to us representing His son) you have to use verses that have been changed from the original, like 1John 5:7, or the baptismal formula in Matthew 28:19. 

I want stronger evidence that the Spirit is indeed a third divine being.  There is no command (or example for us) to worship "Him", or glorify "Him", or pray to "Him", or thank "Him".  "He" is so invisible in the Scriptures, it's as if this THIRD divine being doesn't exist. 

PS:  I do not accept EGW statements, as equal with Scripture.  They are not "proof" for me. 

 

[JoeMo]

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I do not accept EGW statements, as equal with Scripture.  They are not "proof" for me. 

Amen, Rachel!

[LifeHiscost]

2 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Amen, Rachel!

JoeMo

• Resident Chameleon
•  
• 
• 
  The Father    provided spokespersons for every generation before this one and I find no good reason why He would change methods of communicating with those   who believe His Word when we are in the neediest of times, just before the return of His Son, in Laodicea.

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

 

 

Posted 2 hours ago · Report post

4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I do not accept EGW statements, as equal with Scripture.  They are not "proof" for me. 

Amen, Rachel!

[8thdaypriest]

1 hour ago, The Wanderer said:

PS, Good morning 8thDay. I wanted to just note that I hope my posting above was not taken personally. It was not meant personally. I actually read your posts more than a lot of others here. I enjoy your input, and your zeal for using the Bible. I wanted to just say that because I did call into question your response to what I posted. There is a section to your last post that I want to post more details on and will do in a day or so when I have time. It was the part where you said something like "The Holy Spirit is well hidden in the Bible;" and I do agree with that, in part. That is a good observation and I will look forward to more discussion. Hope you have a better day than me. We ave a foot of snow outside right now, and I have a broken elbow. lol

I was wondering why you were sounding more personal this morning.  Sorry about your elbow.  Heal quickly. 

[JoeMo]

Yes Wanderer; may God heal your broken elbow quickly in Jesus' name!  It's snowing here in Denver right now; and we could have half a foot by Tuesday night.

[phkrause]

Wanderer, praying that your elbow gets better! And by the way, its not snowing here!

[Samie]

I believe the Holy Spirit is another "person", distinct and separate from the Father and the Son. According to Jesus, sinning against Him is pardonable, but sinning against the HS is unpardonable. To say that Christ is also the Spirit is a position that does not sit well with Jesus' statement relative to the unpardonable sin.

However, the Bible makes clear there is ONLY ONE God - the Father. And only one Lord, Jesus Christ (see 1 Cor 8:6).  A 3-in-1 God, I believe, cannot be proven from Scriptures.

[8thdaypriest]

3 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

Well, I was not retracting anything I said. Just explaining that it is not personal. I see the Bible as being unified on every topic, especially this one, and when I "think" someone is providing texts in a way that suggests some Bible verses supercede other ones, then its a problem. I see it all over the place, this is not just me and you, The verse saying "I will give you ANOTHER Comforter, for eg. Thats pretty clear. Why would we use other verses to say it isn't?

Wanderer, I used to be believe avidly, in "three beings of the heavenly Trio".   When my best friend came to believe in just Father and Son, I was so angry with her that I didn't speak to her for three months.  I set about studying.  I was gonna PROVE her wrong.  Instead, I came to believe - for myself - that the evidence is on the side of Father and Son. 

Jesus said, "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.  God is spirit" (John 4:23-24). 

Therefore the Father IS spirit. 

Before He incarnated Jesus existed in the exact image of His Father. 

Hebrews 1:3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our2 sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, (NKJ)

Therefore the Son was ALSO spirit.  He was omnipresent, just like His Father.  

The Son of God created all things, according to the will and purpose of His Father  .  No other being did the creating! 

(Colossians Cpt 1) "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.”

So - when Genesis says "the Spirit of God" moved over the waters,  THAT WAS THE SON OF GOD - as omnipresent spirit.  And finally God the FATHER said to His Son, "Let us make man in our image".   The Father is commanding, and the Son then carries out the Father's command. 

The word "us" means more than one, but is NOT necessarily three. 

When the Son of God incarnated into human form and nature - He could no longer be omnipresent.   At that moment, the Father stepped in, to be present with human beings.  Up to that point, the Son had been omnipresent with human beings.  Which is why Jesus said, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" (John 6:44).  the Father is doing the drawing, NOT a third divine being. 

[8thdaypriest]

The sin against the Spirit:

Matthew 12:31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men." (NKJ)

Matthew 12:32 "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man [the human Jesus], it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. (NKJ)

Luke 12:10 "And anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but to him who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven." (NKJ)

In these verses TWO divine beings are mentioned.  1: the Son of Man  - and - 2. the Holy Spirit. 

Personally, I believe the TWO divine beings are God our Father (who IS spirit) - and - the Son of man. 

IF there are THREE divine beings, but only blasphemy against the THIRD ONE of them is unpardonable, then blasphemy against God the Father IS pardonable.  That doesn't make sense. 

The sin or blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, is to attribute the working of God to the Evil One.  In Jesus day, those who said that Jesus healed and worked miracles by the power of the Devil, will NOT be forgiven. 

[8thdaypriest]

Hosea 6:3 "Let us know, Let us pursue the knowledge of the LORD. His going forth is established as the morning; He will come to us like the rain, Like the latter and former rain to the earth." (NKJ)

This is a very familiar verse to most of us.  The words "going forth" (Strongs 04161) means to go out of, or forth from a specific place.  Jesus goes forth FROM HEAVEN. 

HE will come to us as the latter and the former rain.  HE was the former rain, and HE is the latter rain.  HE is the Son of God.  HE was the spirit with mankind before His incarnation, and HE is the spirit with mankind, since He ascended and was glorified. 

Because "the last Adam became a life-giving SPIRIT" (I Cor 15:45). 

Those who believe in God as THREE divine persons, seem absolutely FIXATED on the word "another" - "and He (the Father) will send you another comforter", as if it has to be another divine being.  For me, the FATHER did send them "another comforter" when He glorified His own Son, giving Him the power to be in all places once again.  We know the FATHER poured His own self (His spirit) INTO His Son, and the Son then "poured out this which you now see and hear" (Acts 2:33).   The Father gave Jesus another FORM, by which He could be WITH His disciples.

John under inspiration said, "This is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit" (John John 1:33).  He said this OF Jesus, at His baptism. 

There are few doctrines about which I feel so strongly.  I think the only other doctrine about which I feel so strongly, is the doctrine which says that Jesus Christ was and is the Son of God, and the only name under Heaven by which we can be saved. 

[phkrause]

7 hours ago, Samie said:

I believe the Holy Spirit is another "person", distinct and separate from the Father and the Son. According to Jesus, sinning against Him is pardonable, but sinning against the HS is unpardonable. To say that Christ is also the Spirit is a position that does not sit well with Jesus' statement relative to the unpardonable sin.

I like your reply Samie!!

[Samie]

It appears to me in the following verses that Jesus Himself spoke of 3 different divine beings, distinct from each other, in David's time:

Mark 12:35-37   35 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David?  36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.  37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son?

[8thdaypriest]

47 minutes ago, Samie said:

It appears to me in the following verses that Jesus Himself spoke of 3 different divine beings, distinct from each other, in David's time:

Mark 12:35-37   35 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David?  36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.  37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son?

David spoke by inspiration of WHO?    What "spirit" inspired David.  What "spirit" inspired all of the OT prophets? 

1 Peter 1:10 "Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. (NIV)

Answer:  "the Spirit of Christ".    Christ - as Spirit, inspired ALL of the OT prophets. 

THE LORD is God our Father.  He is "LORD of all".  He is "head of Christ".  He is the "God and Father" of Christ.

So THE LORD (the Father) said to my Lord (God's Son), "Sit thou my on right hand". 

And WHO sits at the Father's right hand?

Answer:  Jesus

Acts 2:33 "Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He [Christ ] poured out this which you now see and hear."

Hebrews 10:12 "But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God"

Hebrews 12:2 "looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."

1 Peter 3:22 (Christ) "who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him".

 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

5 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

Also. I would like to thank you for prayers offered on my behalf. Im still recovering from the shock. I have never once received an offer to pray for me on this forum from someone who disagreed with me. Thats certainly worth noting because I have been on this forum off and on for atleast 13 years. ?

OF course!! We should pray for each other.  And yes - my very good friend of 30 years was just at my home for the week of the Feast of Tabernacles.  We live in different states now, but still keep in touch.  We are on the "same page" concerning God our Father and Christ HIS Son, and she also believes (with me) that the resurrection at the 8th millennium will NOT be the resurrection of all the wicked from this 6000 years. 

[Samie]

7 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

David spoke by inspiration of WHO?    What "spirit" inspired David.  What "spirit" inspired all of the OT prophets? 

1 Peter 1:10 "Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. (NIV)

Answer:  "the Spirit of Christ".    Christ - as Spirit, inspired ALL of the OT prophets.

It appears to me that Jesus referred to 3 distinct divine beings in that statement He made ( Mark 12:35-37 ).  No question that the HS is the Spirit of Christ or the Spirit of God the Father.

[Samie]

1. Spirit of God.

2. Spirit of the Son of God.

3. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God or the Spirit of the Son of God.

From the 3 above,

1. Is the HS = God?

2. Is the HS = the Son of God?

Compare:

1. President of America.

2. President of the people of America.

3. Obama is the President of America or the President of the people of America.

Is Obama = America, or is Obama = people of America?

The answer is obvious.

[LifeHiscost]

Thank God He has not left it up to other sinful men/women to explain His revealed nature to me when God is Love is complete in itself, given through the third Person of the Deity.

…12I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it. 13However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come. 14He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you.… John 16

This is not meant to ignore,

14Where there is no guidance the people fall, But in abundance of counselors there is victory.    Proverbs 11

On a sidenote, I appreciate the Xmas motif afforded to Club Adventist.

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

 

[Gustave]

On ‎11‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 2:48 PM, The Wanderer said:

Thats a good thing!

This may help clarify the position Mrs. White held pertaining to the Holy Trinity...

...James White did NOT accept the Trinitarian understanding of the Holy Spirit.

....However his statement below would lead those ignorant of his vigorous position on the subject.

 

"We invite all to compare THE TESTIMONIES of the Holy Spirit THROUGH Mrs. White with the word of God. And in this we do not invite you to compare them with your creed. That is quite another thing. The TRINITARIAN may compare them with his creed, and because THEY DO NOT AGREE WITH IT, CONDEMN them [ the testimonies of Mrs. White ]. The Adventist Review & Sabbath Herald June 13, 1871

&

 

Revew and Herald, Sept 6, 1892

Is God a Spirit?

Question:
If God is a spirit (John 4:24) and at the same time a person (Dan 7:9) would not the same reasoning prove that the Holy Spirit is a PERSON as referred to in John 4: 26?

Answer:
NO - For God is elsewhere described and represented as a Person; but the Holy Spirit is not. The fact that the Holy Spirit is personified John 14 and thus spoken of as acting in a personal and individual manner does NOT prove it to be a person any more than the fact that love is spoken of in 1 Cor 13 as performing certain acts and exercising certain emotions, prove that charity or love is

 

Further clarification is given on the subject in 1912, three years prior to Mrs. White  passing on.

Signs of the Times, 1912, Vol 39 # 32

3829 — Is The Holy Spirit A Personality?

Question:
Can't we say that the Holy Spirit is a
personality, as long as the personal pronoun
is attributed to it? T. A. Z.

Answer:
The use of the personal pronoun is not of itself proof that the Holy Spirit is a personality, and yet the work of the Spirit is the work of a personality. By the Spirit both the Father and the Son come personally to every soul that receives the Spirit. In that wonderful sense which no human being can comprehend, the Spirit comes to each soul as a personality. And yet it does not have what we would call human personality of being in one place only at one time, that is, such personality as has our Lord Himself — in one place as He is in no other place. The Holy Spirit may be in any number of places at one and the same time, bringing the special presence of God in each of those places. In the office of the "Signs of the Times" there are fourteen different telephones all connecting with the manager. The manager may connect all these with him at one and the same time. He could issue a general order so that the foreman of each department could hear his voice at the same time. In a way he is personally present in every department. Every department hears his voice. The marvelous invention of the telephone makes him present in fifteen different places at the same time. So it is that God's Spirit makes the Father and the Son present in as many different places as God may direct, at one and the same time. We know somewhat of the working. We understand how it is to some extent of the Lord's ways and methods. We see the effects, but we know almost nothing of the nature and the power that Infinity uses to communicate with man. Let us be willing to leave it there. In some instances the Spirit is represented as the great life of God. In some it is spoken of as a power that is poured out and shed forth. To the individual it comes as the representative of the personal God. Therefore it may be spoken of as a personality, and looking at it from another view-point, as not a personality

 

 

[JoeMo]

Well said, Gustave!

[Ron Amnsn]

12 hours ago, Gustave said:

The use of the personal pronoun is not of itself proof that the Holy Spirit is a personality, and yet the work of the Spirit is the work of a personality.

This make sense and is not a contradiction.  In the original Hebrew the Bible refers to the spirit of the Lord as the "breath" or "wind" of YHWH.  The things YHWH does with his breath are certainly done by the personality of YHWH. 

If we say, "We can count on the promises given by the mouth of God because He is faithful,"  we are obviously not intending to make the "mouth of God" into a separate personality distinct from God.  The same would be true if we said, "We are comforted by the breath of God, because He faithful.  In both cases the personal pronoun "He" refers to God himself, not to a separate personality.  People get confused, however, because the translators chose to translate "breath" (a thing with no personality of its own) with the word "spirit", which in English sometimes refers to an entity with a personality of its own.

Gustave, I'd like to confirm the source, date, and context of that last EGW quotation for myself (Signs of the Times, 1912, Vol 39 # 32).  I've searched both my "complete" electronic libraries of EGW material and did not find it.  Is there somewhere online I can find that question and answer within the context of the original publication?
 

[Gustave]

40 minutes ago, Ron Amnsn said:

Quote

Gustave, I'd like to confirm the source, date, and context of that last EGW quotation for myself (Signs of the Times, 1912, Vol 39 # 32).  I've searched both my "complete" electronic libraries of EGW material and did not find it.  Is there somewhere online I can find that question and answer within the context of the original publication?

 

The wording can be confirmed via the General Conference Archives of the Seventh Day Adventist Church…

…At the following URL: http://docs.adventistarchives.org/docs/ST/ST19120820-V39-32__C.pdf#view=fit

…Generally most direct evidence of the creature-christ doctrine of early SDA’s have been scrubbed.

...But the information is readily available via the archives.

At the above link the citation can be found on PAGE 2 ( Question Corner ).

The section dedicated to questions pertaining to SDA theology.

"The Personality of God" doctrine of Ellen White & the Pioneers vigorously maintained...

...That God the Father, Lucifer & Michael the archangels ( along with the other angels ).

...Were flesh blood & bone "hominids" AKA they all had a "personality".

 

The Holy Spirit was devoid of bone, flesh & organs therefore "it" was also devoid of personality...

..There is a metric ton of these affirmations in the archives that run through the time hack.

..Well past the passing of Ellen White.