Homosexual Adventist Pastor?

[Gregory Matthews]

I am posting on this subject, due to the fact that Terry Rice has gone public with this story of what is happening in his life and ministry.  See:

http://spectrummagazine.org/article/2016/11/15/adventist-chaplain-terry-rice-waits-“indefinitely”-church-endorsement

In brief, Terry Rice tells us that he has been educated as an Adventists minister and is currently employed in hospice ministry.  He states that his is a homosexual (he uses the term gay) but he implies that he is celibate.

He then tells us that the SDA denomination refused to either ordain him or to endorse him for ministry as a chaplain.  He clear that he believes that this refusal is related to the fact that he is gay.

FACT:  In the U.S., Federal chaplains, such as I have been, are required by law (which is based upon the Constitution's 1st amendment) to be approved by a recognized denomination both to be employed by the Federal government and to maintain that employment.  IOW, I could never have been so employed absent SDA approval and the SDA denomination could have terminated my employment at any time.  If the denomination had done so, I would not have had any recourse outside of the denomination itself.

I believe that this aspect of required denominational approval is correct and I support it.

I am not aware of anything else in regard to what Terry  Rice has posted other than what he has said.  But, I fully support the idea that the SDA denomination  has the right to decide whether or not they will ordain and approve people for ministry. This is not a personal judgment of Mr. Rice, and I do not know all aspects of this.  But, I want to  be clear that I do support the right of the denomination to make such decisions.

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

 

1) He deserves a yes or no vote on whether or not he should be endorsed. It is not right for no formal decision to be made.

2) In response to a previous question, under present organizational policy, it is the NAD that has the responsibility to decide whether or not to endorse him.

3) The answer to this problem may be for him to seek endorsement from an organization approved to endorse chaplains that is willing to endorse him as a SDA, but is not the approved SDA organization.

4) Doing # 3 will not affect his membership in the SDA denomination. But, such may (?) result in a decision as to whether or not to endorse him. The denomination is not comfortable with people who are perceived by the public as SDA clergy who are not so recognized by the denomination.

5) In any case, it is not a violation of SDA policy for a celibate homosexual person to become SDA clergy.

 

[phkrause]

12 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

5) In any case, it is not a violation of SDA policy for a celibate homosexual person to become SDA clergy.

That's interesting GM. Do you know of a statement from the SDA Denomination that says that? I've personally never heard that before!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

If a homosexual person is celibate, and plans to stay that way, why would he broadcast to the church the fact that he is gay, if he wants to become a pastor, or needs the endorsement??  That seems like an odd, in-your-face, somewhat combative type of statement to make.  What would be Mr. Rice's point of doing so?

[Gregory Matthews]

My comment is in response to Phkrause.

Of course there is no explicit statement as you asked.  One would have to derive it from other statements.  The following quote came from a comment to the article cited in the OP.  The author of it was "2nd Opinion."   Other people have made similar statements.

 

The decision to withhold ordination from Terry is inconsistent with the 2015 NAD position statement on human sexuality. It reads (emphases mine)::

Sexual Orientation and Practice. While the Bible does not address sexual orientation, it does describe appropriate and inappropriate sexual behavior. We acknowledge that attraction to someone of the same gender may be temptation, but not an act of sin (Matt 5:27-28; Rom 6:1-23; Col 3:1-10; James 1:14-15); therefore, those with same-sex orientation,who conform to biblical teachings about sexual behavior,may fully participate in the life of the Adventist Church.

Church Membership. The Seventh-day Adventist Church Manual explains the criteria for becoming a member.Individuals desiring membership are expected to affirm and commit to the Seventh-day Adventist Fundamental Beliefs and the responsibilities and practices of membership. This includes holding to a biblical view on human sexuality. Principles and criteria relative to membership are to be applied with fairness, consistency, and an attitude of love.

Leadership Roles. In the Seventh-day Adventist Church, only members in regular standing are to fill leadership roles such as teaching and preaching.Leaders are held to a high standard of care as representatives and role models carrying out a sacred trust on behalf of Christ and His church.

Employment. Seventh-day Adventists employed by the Church are expected to respect and practice the beliefs and convictions of the organization.Church members engaging in inappropriate sexual activity or the promotion of any sexual behavior that is inconsistent with Adventist beliefs and mission are ineligible for employment.Church entities that employ non-members should use discretion when hiring individuals whose values may be contrary to the beliefs and convictions of the Adventist Church.

This statement allows for gay persons to be fully recognized as members, leaders and employees of the church organization, as long as they have committed themselves to live in celibacy and uphold the church's view in this regard. To my knowledge, Terry meets all of these criteria. If not, then that should be spelled out to Terry by the NAD committee in question. To deny or delay ordination indefinitely without giving a sufficient basis for doing so, when all qualifications have been met, is unjust.

As for my brother Gideon's comment above. The argument here is not that same-sex attractions should be indulged and not "forsaken." As the NAD document makes crystal clear, temptation does not equal sin. Even Jesus was tempted in all points as we are. Heterosexuals, too, may have many sexually tempting thoughts each day. But that should not prevent someone from identifying as "straight." Identifying as a gay person is not the same as indulging one's same-sex attractions. It is simply an acknowledgement of one's condition in life, so that others can understand where you are coming from and why you may not seek, for instance, romantic relationships with members of the opposite sex. It signals the way in which a person must navigate the world as a human being--without attractions to the opposite sex. It does not signal participation in or support for a "lifestyle." Many "gay Christians," such as Wesley Hill, use this label to describe themselves and their commitment to a life of celibacy and service within the church.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

SDA Statements on human sexuality include:

1) http://www.nadadventist.org/site/1/2015 Documents/NAD Statement on Human Sexuality-Nov 2 2015.pdf  This one includes the above reference.

2)  http://www.adventistreview.org/church-news/story3415-nad-approves-statement-on-human-sexuality

3)  https://www.adventist.org/en/information/official-statements/guidelines/article/go/0/responding-to-changing-cultural-attitudes-regarding-homosexual-and-other-alternative-sexual-practice/

4)  http://www.adventistreview.org/church-news/story3339-andrews-seminary-approves-document-on-homosexuality

5)  http://universitypress.andrews.edu/catalog.php?key=213   This is a 600 page book which sells for $25.  This URL briefly describes it and lists the Table of Contents.  While I do not consider it to be perfect, I believe it is of value.

6) http://www.adventistbookcenter.com/homosexuality-in-history-and-the-scriptures.html  This book was first published in the 1980s.  It is out of print.  While it is dated and brief (only 183 pages), I consider it to be outstanding and of great value.  It was written by Ron Springett, who was a Theology professor at Southern Adventist University at the time he wrote it.

 

 

[debbym]

Terry is male.  One barrier for ordination is not there. For many in our denomination this is a significant status for ordination.  this should work in his favor.  Now if this person was female and a celibate lesbian the hindrances would be greater, i imagine.

The barriers of prejudice and bias can be very powerful as many who have been on the brunt end of these positions can share.

It has has been mentioned the temptations to sexual sin is not exclusive to the gay population.  Of course Gay sexual improprieties are much more sinful than heterosexual sexual improprieties. (Tongue in cheek comment)

Those who have been opponents to women's ordination, have argued, in this forum, that if women are allowed to be ordained then it will open the door to gay's being ordained, which potentially could open the door for the GC president to be gay. 

I believe we already have clergy in our denomination that are undisclosed celibate gays.  If it meant your job you would be quiet about it.  I had to occasion years ago to speak with someone who was gay and employed by the SDA corporation... and it was an agonizing experience to ultimately lose their position because of their orientation, not because of sexual activity.

This is a very painful topic for many in our denomination.  If you venture into the gay subculture of our church be prepared to see an even darker side of humanity, and it is not necessarily those with alternative sexual orientation.

[Gail]

I wonder about the impact on the person that has to keep that information secret to maintain employment, friends, church standing, etc  It seems like a double life to me. 

I guess it's like having a terminal disease and not telling anyone. It is a big burden that one shoulders alone.

Although I know of pastors that are not gay but have had issues that they could not dare tell anyone about. They have, say, been suffering from doubt or burnout. 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

1 hour ago, Gail said:

I wonder about the impact on the person that has to keep that information secret to maintain employment, friends, church standing, etc  It seems like a double life to me. 

I guess it's like having a terminal disease and not telling anyone. It is a big burden that one shoulders alone.

Although I know of pastors that are not gay but have had issues that they could not dare tell anyone about. They have, say, been suffering from doubt or burnout. 

 

I know it may sound cold or harsh, but there's such a thing as keeping one's personal life separate from one's employment life...  Everyone doesn't need to know about someone's personal life, except as it pertains to employment conduct and requirements.

If someone has issues, there should be counselors or trusted friends in place with whom to confer.  If there's not, then find one.  The idea that total personal transparency is the ideal way to present oneself in an employment situation is fraught with risk — and is rather simpleminded.

[Gail]

One would think. 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

?

[GayatfootofCross]

I know largely the Church prefers its members and society to hide and pretend and fake our ways in life.

Fear n Comfort drives that.

That's what it sounds like to a person struggling to be authentic.

 

Lets bring some good scripture to this.

        yes come out in Church

"But if we live in the light—just as he is in the light—then we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from every sin".

Fellowship with one another fully exposed and still loved and accepted mutually?

WOW!

supernatual

 

Being gay is not only about who we are attracted to ..it is about who you are.

A certain beautiful Sensitivity is marked in the ones (plenty) I know.

Whether he is celibate by fortune, health, cost,energy, peer pressure, GRACE, shame, availability, talent, grooming habits or theology ..

He is as much as a full spiritual being as   all  are here.

 

I adore a courageous and convicted christian

 

7 hours ago, debbym said:

This is a very painful topic for many in our denomination.  If you venture into the gay subculture of our church be prepared to see an even darker side of humanity, and it is not necessarily those with alternative sexual orientation.

.We LGBTIQA experience this full well.

 

God still heals.

 

 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

is this thread about the church accepting gays in general, or about denominational employment of celibate homosexuals?

Why would a homosexual who is celibate by choice, and wanting to be a pastor, find it necessary to express his or her sexual affinity to church leaders?  Is sexual orientation a new question on the "I wanna be a pastor" application?

[Gregory Matthews]

Whether heterosexual or homosexual, denominational leaders will probably wonder why a person is not married who wants to be ordained clergy.  KEeping it quiet is probably not possible.

 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

49 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Whether heterosexual or homosexual, denominational leaders will probably wonder why a person is not married who wants to be ordained clergy.  KEeping it quiet is probably not possible.

 

really?  My brother was single when he was ordained, and nobody questioned him...

[Gregory Matthews]

Pam:

1)  I have no doubt that he was single when he was ordained as we now ordain single men.

2)  But, I can assure you that the issue of his not being married was a consideration, even if he was not directly asked about it at the time of his ordination.

3)  Conference officials were clearly aware of his singleness and the fact that he had not be truly accused of any misconduct.

 

 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

okay

[GayatfootofCross]

In Seminary they had a saying.."no peach no preach"

.

When I was young and single in church ..it was either

" I have a nice girl for you to meet"

or

"Why haven't you married yet"

 

Thank goodness no one asks anymore!

 

..

its really our choice to come forward or not

no one else decision to make or question.

PERIOD

 

 

[debbym]

Some may marry to further maintain their invisibility.  i would not be surprised if lesbian and gay's have married to protect each other.  

Some marry and find out later it was not worth it.

i think this is an area where there is a lot of unspoken pain.

i  know some by having been on the fringe of this community, and it is not pretty.

[GayatfootofCross]

All people for themselves .. decide to be loved for  who they aren't or  hated for who they are.

 

The Pay Offs can be exhilarating and most painful.

[Outta Here]

I think this person could be a great asset to the church--as a person who is open about his sexual orientation, he may be best suited to provide counsel to others who are struggling with issues he's struggled with. 

[Guest Nash]

On 11/18/2016 at 8:55 PM, Gregory Matthews said:

My comment is in response to part of the NAD statement on sexuality:

Sexual Orientation and Practice. While the Bible does not address sexual orientation, it does describe appropriate and inappropriate sexual behavior. We acknowledge that attraction to someone of the same gender may be temptation, but not an act of sin (Matt 5:27-28; Rom 6:1-23; Col 3:1-10; James 1:14-15); therefore, those with same-sex orientation,who conform to biblical teachings about sexual behavior,may fully participate in the life of the Adventist Church.

The bible is NOT silent on sexual orientation - it states that a "man shall leave his father and mother and shall cleave to his wife". Sexual orientation is first implied in God's command to Adam and Eve to "be fruitful and multiply...fill the earth". According to God's design, the human race was to be fruitful through a procreation process that involved sexual intimacy and common sense would tell you that there must be an attraction (orientation) between the two opposite sexes. Recent neuroscience discoveries are bringing out some amazing human physical and psychological designs which explain how attractions happen and how we are attracted to some people and not to others (of the opposite sex of course)

The statement that "those with same sex orientation who conform to biblical teachings about sexual behavior may fully participate in the life of the Adventist church" is an attempt to separate the  inseparable and bring the law of God down to the human standard. The bible states that "as a man thinketh, so is he" and Christ declared that sin is not restricted to behavior only but also includes the mind, motive and thoughts. The only people in the bible who met this high standard are Jesus and the 144,000. Thus if you are trying to tell us that brother Rice will live up to this high standard, you are not only lying but also venturing where angels fear to tread because only God has that ability to declare one a part of the 144,000.

 

 

 

 

[LifeHiscost]

On 11/19/2016 at 7:30 PM, GayatfootofCross said:

 

its really our choice to come forward or not

no one else decision to make or question.

PERIOD

 

 

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God ...

John 15:5 "I am the vine; you are the branches.  without me ye can do nothing

…8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God...Ephesian 2

If one iota of human effort were responsible for our salvation it would no longer be a gift. My choice of righteous living is a result of my having been saved. I cannot be saved by what I do but I can be lost by what I don't do, yield to His will.

4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself as a ransom for all.....1 Timothy

... Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith....Hebrew 12

God is Love!~Jesus saves!        

[Gregory Matthews]

I have hidden from view the post by Guest Nash due to the fact that he/she was unable to separate a NAD statement from his/her own personal view of that statement.  Therefore, as posted, the statement does not accurately represent the NAD positon and may be misunderstood.

If Guest Nash wishes to repeat his/her post in a manner that his/her personal comments are separated from the NAD statement, I shall be glad to allow them to remain.

NOTE:  To be clear, I do not think that Guest Nash intentionally had his/her comments appear in a manner that some would think they were a part of the NAD statement.  But, that is how they were posted.

 

 

[Guest Nash]

Hi Greg:

Would it be possible for me to copy my previous post and make amendments to address the observation you made..?

If not I'll just have to recollect my thoughts and re-write it.

Blessings. Thanks..!