Nicodema Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 Quote: Planey said: Quote: LifeHiscost said: to indicate that God's universal plan (religion) is unfair. Do you think it is remotely fair for anyone to go to heaven? If God was fair I don't believe any human would be there. I don't know why but this was the first thing to pop into my mind: God doesn't have to be fair ... He's RIGHT! (I'm sure there's a flaw in that somewhere but that's what came to mind when I read your post.) Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
Clio Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 Quote: LifeHiscost said: Quote: Planey said: (but then when did "fair" have anything to do with religious things?) Graeme Interesting, Graeme, that you would add a footnote seeming to indicate that God's universal plan (religion) is unfair. TOXIC TOXIC TOXIC Abba's universal plan is NOT religion. It's a relationship and that relationship is with HIM not a 'religion'. Islam is a religion. Bhuddism is a religion, Hinduism is a religion. Christianity is a religion. The only "fair" thing in this whole sorry, messed up world, is a relationship with Jesus. And you have to experience Him daily in order to know Him. That means you spend time in His word, not studying, but reading for praise and devotion time. Letting Him speak to your heart until you know His Voice so well, none can deceive you. You can't have a relationship with someone if the only place you see them is church. Quote A heart where He alone has first place.
Clio Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 Quote: Nicodema said: Quote: Sid said: Quote: Stan Jensen said: Well that may be true, but rest assured, according to the promise of confessed sins, God does not remember them Which is pretty mindblowing, considering He knows all things. If only we had that capacity! We do. Have you forgotten about the sea? It is only we who cling to the confessed and forgiven sins, allowing them to be used to castigate us when Abba has thrown them into the Sea of Forgetfulness. We can throw our rememberance of them there as well. Clio Quote A heart where He alone has first place.
Nicodema Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 Easier said than done, Clio, and while I appreciate what you are TRYING to say, I'm afraid that even this can become a self-destructive loop as well: now on top of having to feel the pain of remembering past sins and feeling raw, sore, bleeding regret for them, the poor beleagured sinner has one more thing to castigate himself over: his inability to "throw away" his remembrance of them as well! Solutions??? Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
Clio Posted March 9, 2006 Posted March 9, 2006 There is only One, Nico. It is the same One for everything I would cast away. It is Jesus. It doesn't matter whether it be the hatred gnawing my gut or the guilt of sin which lingers after confession and repentance, I can do nothing about either one. But I CAN choose to say that I give the hatred to Jesus to do with as He wills and to remove it from me. I CAN choose to ask for true acceptance of Abba's forgiveness of confessed, and repented of, sin. And if I am consistent in this, eventually He comes and it is wiped from my mind. I may remember the specific action, it's consequences and my struggle with the fear and guilt, but the guilt is gone. How can I bear witness if I cannot remember what I am to guard against? Jesus will come and take it, and cast my sin and guilt into the sea. The same place Abba puts His rememberance of it. Clio Quote A heart where He alone has first place.
Moderators John317 Posted March 9, 2006 Moderators Posted March 9, 2006 Revelation 22:14 reads, "Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life." That is what almost all the ancient Greek manuscripts read. Two exceptions are manuscripts S and A, from the 4th and 5th centuries, that read, "Blessed are they that wash their robes..." There are five later manuscripts that read the same. Apart from those few exceptions, the rest of the hundreds of ancient Greek manuscripts read "do His commandments" in place of "wash their robes." Washing one's robes in the blood of Christ is the same as obeying God's commandments. It is best also to remember Jesus' words: "...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments" (Matt. 19:17). We need to be very careful that we don't give people the impression that what we do-- whether obedience or disobedience-- is unrelated to salvation. The Bible definitely does not teach this. As SDAs, we believe in the pre-advent judgment, or the Investigative Judgment. Obedience to God's commandments certainly plays an important part in that view. Our actions come up for review. They will show whether our faith/love/relationship with Jesus is real or whether it's just all talk. (Before someone raises the objection that we cannot obey God's commandments, let them remember that Revelation 12:17 and 14:12 say clearly that "the remnant of her seed" actually do "keep the commandments of God.") So then, will doing BAD things ensure that you miss heaven? No, certainly not. If it did, then I would have no chance at all of being there. The whole answer to this question is found in 1 Corinthians 6: 9-11: "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. "And such were some of you, but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." Will doing good ensure that I will be in heaven? No. The Bible is clear that the good works must spring from faith in God and love for Him, not from a desire to earn His favor. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators Gerr Posted March 10, 2006 Moderators Posted March 10, 2006 Quote: Planey said: Quote: Gerry Cabalo said: [:"blue"]To willfully do bad things after coming to know Christ is to look forward to a judgment of condemnation. [/] Gerry Thank you, Gerry. A clear answer: Doing bad things WILL ensure that you miss heaven. Graeme [:"blue"]You missed a very important modifier: "willfully". We all make mistakes. We all have knee-jerk responses that are wrong/sinful. I don't believe we lose our salvation with those kind of sins. [:"red"]"Every wrong is sin, but not all sin leads to death." 1 Jn 5:17 NLT [/] If God admits into heaven one person who intentionally/deliberately/willfully commits a sinful act and does not repent & turn away from it, then no one can't be consigned to hell. [/] Gerry Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted March 10, 2006 Moderators Posted March 10, 2006 Quote: Planey said: Quote: LifeHiscost said: to indicate that God's universal plan (religion) is unfair. Do you think it is remotely fair for anyone to go to heaven? If God was fair I don't believe any human would be there. Graeme [:"blue"]Would it be even remotely fair that I should go to hell for being born into this cesspool of a world, with a body already addicted to sin, over which I had no choice? This question used to drive me bonkers. Then I realized God did something to make it fair. He did something that I had nothing to do with whatsoever, sending His Son to purchase my redemption. He shed the blood of His Son, not mine. Jesus hanged on the Cross, not me. So, whether pre-fall or post-fall, it all boils down to one fair thing: choice. [/] Gerry Quote
Dr. Shane Posted March 10, 2006 Posted March 10, 2006 The role bad things plays in our salvation is need. The bad things we do create our need of a Savior. I once read where Ellen White wrote our only claim to our Savior is our great need. Our need for Him is so great because of the bad things we have done. Our bad deeds do not in any way benifit us in this life or the one to come. They only make our need for a Savior greater. When we embrace our Savior He saves us from our sin. He does it different ways for different people for different reasons. However Christ chooses to do it, the Bible assures us we will not be tempted beyond what we can bare. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity
Nicodema Posted March 10, 2006 Posted March 10, 2006 Quote: Gerry Cabalo said: Quote: Planey said: Do you think it is remotely fair for anyone to go to heaven? If God was fair I don't believe any human would be there. [:"blue"]Would it be even remotely fair that I should go to hell for being born into this cesspool of a world, with a body already addicted to sin, over which I had no choice? This question used to drive me bonkers. Then I realized God did something to make it fair. He did something that I had nothing to do with whatsoever, sending His Son to purchase my redemption. He shed the blood of His Son, not mine. Jesus hanged on the Cross, not me. So, whether pre-fall or post-fall, it all boils down to one fair thing: choice. [/] I think this is a good answer, actually. I would also hasten to add this on the topic of "fairness" itself: Many a person credits himself with possessing a "strong sense of fairness." Yet this strangely only seems to be operative when the outcome sought is one in his own favor. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
LifeHiscost Posted March 11, 2006 Posted March 11, 2006 Quote: Planey said: If God was fair I don't believe any human would be there. Graeme Interesting viewpoint. However I do believe that the Originator of the plan of salvation is better able to determine what is fair than those caught in the cesspool. Just as when I recently was involved in the sale of some property, and the real estate agent wished to know whether a higher or lower value should be put on it for the market. I suggested the higher price, considering that God had someone out there He was aware of, who would see the property as just what they were looking for, and would place a much higher value on it than someone else. Sure enough, a person appeared being more than willing to pay the higher price, considering it well worth what would satisfy their desires. Did the value of the property change in worth? Not in the eyes of most. But in the eyes of the person who was willing to pay the price, most assuredly so. [:"red"] "As a result of the anguish of His soul,He will see it and be satisfied;By His knowledge the Righteous One,My Servant, will justify the many,As He will bear their iniquities." [/] Isaiah 53:11 NASB [:"red"] "I have swept away your sins like the morning mists. I have scattered your offenses like the clouds. Oh, return to me, for I have paid the price to set you free." [/] Isaiah 44:22 NLT [:"red"] "And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him." [/] Malachi 3:17 KJV [:"red"] "I will rejoice greatly in the LORD,My soul will exult in my God;For He has clothed me with garments of salvation,He has wrapped me with a robe of righteousness,As a bridegroom decks himself with a garland,And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels. " [/] Isaiah 61:10 NASB Quote Lift Jesus up!!
LifeHiscost Posted March 11, 2006 Posted March 11, 2006 Quote: Nicodema said: God doesn't have to be fair ... He's RIGHT! And I'm satisfied He's both. fair: marked by impartiality and honesty: free from self interest, prejudice or favoritism. synonym: just, equitable, impartial, unbiased, dispassionate, objective. WEBSTER'S NINTH COLLEGIATE DICTIONARY [:"red"] "Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality.." "You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him." [/] Acts 10:34,38 NASB Quote Lift Jesus up!!
LifeHiscost Posted March 11, 2006 Posted March 11, 2006 Quote: Nicodema said: Solutions??? [:"red"] ""Listen to me, you who pursue righteousness, Who seek the LORD: Look to the rock from which you were hewn And to the quarry from which you were dug." [/] Isaiah 51:1 NASB [:"red"] "Straightening up, Jesus said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you? She answered, "No one, Lord!" And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you either.Go on your way and from now on sin no more.""[/] John 8:10,11 [:"red"] "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." [/] John 3:17 KJV And all the said Quote Lift Jesus up!!
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