SDA Dropouts

[JoeMo]

3 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

That's partially true .   But there is a "list" of things that will get one qualified to be put on the Isolation List, and divorce, certain moral struggles, etc are high on the list. There are certain things you just cannot disclose to people in the church or your name is mud.

If that's true in your church, it's time to find another church.  Jesus came to save sinners, not those who already consider themselves saved.  If you cannot share your struggles with your spiritual family and expect support (as well as support those who are struggling), who are you supposed to turn to for support?

I'm happy to say that I belong to a church full of broken people who are comfortable sharing their brokeness with their church family and be comforted by their brothers and sisters.  We can all be broken together in love and compassion for one another.

[JoeMo]

I would also like to say that if Gail had not introduced me to CA several years ago, I would likely be an SDA drop-out today.  There are many people here with whom I can identify - people who question the standards of the denomination or the historic interpretations of scripture.  People who continue to struggle with overcoming the habitual sins and shortcomings,a d handicaps they have struggled with the majority of their lives.  There are broken people here who just want to belong somewhere.  Thank you CA, for giving me a reason to stay in the church.

[aka]

Gregory, that was really a help for my understanding about how you were involved with SDA denomination and Federal Government simultaneously.

Would you please gather up all what you posted on the matter and paste it into a new topic thread with appropriate title? I really don't want what you wrote to go missing.

The gap left in this thread will then close together in continuance of the topic started on SDA leaving the community. 

Smiles and wave to you...

[Mario-One]

The article in Adventist Review does not give a date, I assume it is recent because most of the comments are within the last two weeks. I am surprised that the report that Alexander Bryant presented to the NAD Year End Meeting is not mentioned. He presented a lot of details.

Here are some of them
1,231,000 members in 5,493 churches and 858 companies
in 2015 - - Missing - 9,351
Dropped - 3,702
Deaths - - 7,974
Total lost for 2015 is 21,027

Total lost for 2014 is 19,752
Total lost for 2013 is 21,597
Total - last 7 years 132,988
- - - - - - -
Total net gain of 118,178 members in the last 7 years

I guess this means that if we did not lose 132,988
the NAD would have grown by 251,166 members or looking at it another way, they lost more members then they gained in the last 7 years

In my opinion - They are not taking this serious enough

The reasons of leaving is very interesting - I will look for the PowerPoint Presentation that goes with this slide 

 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

8 hours ago, Mario-One said:

I will look for the PowerPoint Presentation that goes with this slide 

the link is http://atoday.org/at/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/WTMG-Year-End-2016-Collaboration3.pdf

[Gail]

Hi, Mario- nice to see you!

[Gail]

I appreciate the comments from those who have worn those shoes, the shoes that are ready to walk. Some put on running shoes...

[Mario-One]

5 hours ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

the link is http://atoday.org/at/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/WTMG-Year-End-2016-Collaboration3.pdf

Thank you Pam, but this LINK opens the Financial report by Mike Jamieson. It used the same background as the report by Alex Bryant, Executive Secretary

Bryant's entire report was about membership and it was extensive. I am still searching for it

[Mario-One]

58 minutes ago, Gail said:

Hi, Mario- nice to see you!

Hello Gail: Thank you and a Happy New Year to you and your family

[Mario-One]

On 1/13/2017 at 3:10 AM, The Wanderer said:

Well, (and Ill bet you were expecting one of my "wells" with this one), I found the Professional "attention getter" at the beginning of this article very much out of perspective. 1/ Most of the people are not "leaked" out, they are kicked out. For eg., when an individual goes to a new church, because they are having troubles, and want to come back. So the first three times, the person asks a certain Head Elder to please pray set up a time to meet at the church to discuss and pray about the problem. All three times the person apologized profusely. But the fourth time; I did not make an appointment, was planning just to sit and "be good" while listening to the sermon, when he saw me coming into the foyer and, he ran like a scarred rabbit into a stair well  going down to the wash room. Many are kicked out like this. Not "leaked out."

I found the report but Alex Bryant to 2016 YEM - http://www.nadadventist.org/site/1/2016 images/2016 NAD Secretary Report G. Alexander Bryant.pdf

Wanderer, Your comment is a testimonial against the statistics presented in the report. There is a slide that says the church voted to kick a member out only 2% of the lost members.  Another slide says that zero % want to return to the church. I believe that it is much more than 2% that have been kicked out and I am absolutely certain that some who were kicked out want to return, especially when they were kicked out unfairly, and still believe this is God's remnant church. I hope there is a happy ending to your story.

[Mario-One]

On 1/2/2017 at 4:24 PM, Mario-One said:

Thank you Pam, but this LINK opens the Financial report by Mike Jamieson. It used the same background as the report by Alex Bryant, Executive Secretary

Bryant's entire report was about membership and it was extensive. I am still searching for it

I found the report, there are over a dozen slides regarding membership losses - http://www.nadadventist.org/site/1/2016 images/2016 NAD Secretary Report G. Alexander Bryant.pdf 

[Mario-One]

I have a personal experience - where the church where I was a member for 25 years kicked out a member unfairly.

According to the Church Manual a member has fundamental rights, (page 65) 1) prior notification of the disciplinary meeting (reason for discipline known at least 2 weeks before hearing ) I call this due process; 2)  right to be heard in their own defense;  3) right to introduce evidence; 4) and to produce witnesses; page 63 says there are two ways to administer discipline a) by censure and (b) removal from membership which means a motion  to censure is NOT out of order;  the church must talk to the member in accordance with Matt. 18 (page 57) and there are rights of appeal after a vote to disfellowship on page 67.  

In 2013, the church board voted to remove a member without speaking to him about the reason, and they manipulated the congregation to vote for removal by false accusations and by depriving the member of all the rights given him. He brought 4 witnesses to speak in his behalf, none were allowed to testify at the hearing, in fact, when the fourth witness arrived, she was stopped at the front door and told that if she entered the church, she would be arrested for trespassing.  The conference did nothing to uphold these rights, the President did send a representative who actually was made chairman of the hearing, when the time to make a decision came, there was a motion to remove and there was a motion to censure, the chairman ruled censure out of order, this was challenged and he refused to accept the challenge to his decision. He informed the congregation that all this was according to proper procedure, which was not true. The conference leaders still have not corrected any of the mistakes made by the representative who was sent.

My point is that since they are losing millions of members, they need some strategy to bring them back. One of the logical groups to make efforts to bring back are those members who claim to be unfairly removed and want to return to the church. I will know they are serious about addressing the problem of lost members when they make some effort to restore this group, which the report by Alex Bryant to NAD YEM claims does not even exist.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

It happens.

There are times when it is not fair.

But, the bottom line is that there is little that the Conference can do about it as far as the local congregation is concerned.

One remedy, if the Conference wants to do so is for the person to be admitted to the "Conference Church" on profession of faith.  This can be done if the Conference is willing.  From that position, the person may join another congregation by a letter of transfer.

Another remedy is for another congregation to accept the member on Profession of Faith.  But, that congregation and its pastor must be willing to do so.  In addition, the Conference must be willing not to interfere.

NOTE:  I have personally seen all of the above happen.  So, do not tell me that it can not happen.  However, I will acknowledge that in many, possibly the majority, of cases such is not realistic.

NOTE:  In theory there is an appeal process and the Conference could advise the congregation to reverse their decision.

 

 

[Mario-One]

3 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

It happens.

There are times when it is not fair.

But, the bottom line is that there is little that the Conference can do about it as far as the local congregation is concerned.

One remedy, if the Conference wants to do so is for the person to be admitted to the "Conference Church" on profession of faith.  This can be done if the Conference is willing.  From that position, the person may join another congregation by a letter of transfer.

Another remedy is for another congregation to accept the member on Profession of Faith.  But, that congregation and its pastor must be willing to do so.  In addition, the Conference must be willing not to interfere.

NOTE:  I have personally seen all of the above happen.  So, do not tell me that it can not happen.  However, I will acknowledge that in many, possibly the majority, of cases such is not realistic.

NOTE:  In theory there is an appeal process and the Conference could advise the congregation to reverse their decision.

 

 

God is fair, and if the church wants to set a godly example it will try to be fair. I mentioned that all the rights were violated, including due process. The first charge was done according to due process, but the church board changed the charge and the person was not informed of the change until 4 days before the hearing. Fairness would have postponed the hearing so that the member had the two weeks to prepare a defense. I wondered when due process would be upheld. The person asked the conference to make a decision regarding due process, by answering a question: What charge should be considered at the appeal? Page 67 of the church manual allows for an appeal. But the church could make the same mistake and do a retrial based on the second charge which violated due process. Upholding due process would change the charge and make it a different hearing all together. Since the conference would not answer the question or make any recommendation regarding which charge, the person did not take the appeal path, he requested to join another church. The conference was not willing to accept the person into the conference church.  

You suggest profession of faith at another church and that "the conference must be willing not to interfere." According to Working Policy B-05/06 they can not interfere, that would be improper. 

“Different elements of organizational authority are distributed among the various levels of denominational organization. For example: the decision as to who may/may not be a member of a local Seventh-day Adventist Church is entrusted to the members of the local church concerned; decisions as to the employment of local church pastors is entrusted to the local conference/ mission; decisions regarding the ordination of ministers are entrusted to the union conference/mission; and the definition of denominational beliefs is entrusted to the General Conference in session. . ."

[Gregory Matthews]

Mario, I agree with you.

As you probably know, in the SDA denomination, there are several levels of Working Policy.   I am going to assume that you referenced the NAD Working Policy.  If so,  you were accurate.

 

 

 

[JoeMo]

Being a member of the SDA denomination or not is immaterial to the state of one's relationship with Christ.  Claiming that being an SDA in any way enhances one's citizenship in the Kingdom is equivalent to saying that since I am not a member of the Denver chapter of the Italian-American Club means that I'm not Italian.

If I were to be disfellowshipped, it wouldn't concern me - I would still identify with SDA's; and I wouldn't be the least bit concerned over my standing in the Kingdom.

That is not saying that, if the SDA denomination takes a compromising stand in the last days, that I would remain loyal.

[Mario-One]

4 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

If you actually believe this "report" hook, line, and sinker, then Id have to say you are not facing reality. Think about it for a minute? Why on earth would "The Conference" feel it necessary to drum up some pseudo-report, and try to yell out to the worl with it in saying: "only 2% of the ones that leave were kicked out?"  There are many ways to make a member leave. They dont need any reports or mandates from church board meetings in order to feel unwelcome, and then leave.

I did not say that I believed the report presented by Alex Bryant to the YEM, I think the reason for the statistics presented in the report is because 'the cat is out of the bag' the church lost 13 million members, and is losing over a million a year, this rate of loss is increasing not decreasing. They can not deny this, so they try to explain it.  I agree with you that there are many ways to discourage someone, but some who may feel unwelcome, stay because they feel they are on a mission from God to reform the church. It is when someone who keeps pointing out the mistakes of church leaders, does not take the hints that they are not welcome, that is when they kick them out unfairly or call the police to arrest them for trespassing based on false charges. I have seen that also.

[Mario-One]

5 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Being a member of the SDA denomination or not is immaterial to the state of one's relationship with Christ.  Claiming that being an SDA in any way enhances one's citizenship in the Kingdom is equivalent to saying that since I am not a member of the Denver chapter of the Italian-American Club means that I'm not Italian.

If I were to be disfellowshipped, it wouldn't concern me - I would still identify with SDA's; and I wouldn't be the least bit concerned over my standing in the Kingdom.

That is not saying that, if the SDA denomination takes a compromising stand in the last days, that I would remain loyal.

JoeMo, you are one of a rare few to even think about getting disfellowshipped unfairly. The purpose of discipline is not punishment, but a reality check, that you are not right with God. So you are talking about an innocent person getting kicked out, and not being concerned. Here is a quote for this situation.  "Jesus adds to the lesson these words: "Verily, I say unto you, whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." This assurance that after the rules of Christ have been followed to the letter the decisions of the church will be ratified in heaven,gives a solemn significance to the action of the church. No hasty steps should be taken to cut off names from the church books or to place a member under censure until the case has been investigated and the Bible rule fully obeyed.  {15MR 194.1}

   The words of Christ show how necessary it is for church officers to be free from prejudice and selfish motives. Human minds and hearts, unless wholly sanctified, purified, and refined from partiality and prejudice, are liable to commit grave errors, to misjudge and deal unkindly and unjustly with souls that are the purchase of the blood of Christ. But the decision of an unjust judge will be of no account in the court of heaven. It will not make an innocent man guilty, nor change his character in the least before God. As surely as men in responsible positions become lifted up in their own esteem, and act as though they were to lord it over their brethren, they will render many decisions which Heaven cannot ratify.  {15MR 194.2}

  If your church kicked you out unfairly, it is not ratified in heaven, and your name is still written in the Book of Life. I think this is what you mean and that you would remain outside the church with assurance that God still considers you a member. What if God also gave you gifts of wisdom and understanding, and he revealed to you errors in the church manual or working policy. You would need to restore your voice in the choice in order to bring about the reform that God has revealed to you. So I believe that in some situations, you should try to become a member again using the two paths described in Church Manual, page 67.

[Mario-One]

8 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

When I said "you" I did not mean you personally. It was intended metaphorically, and intended to implicate "anyone" who believes that report. Wow. If they are losing a million per year, how many do they bring in per year? Seems like the whole hub bub is approaching the old adage about insanity. Why do they/we keep doing the same thing over and over again?

Ha, Ha, I understood what you meant. I am greatly concerned about the lack of serious study and response to this problem by church leaders.  The church is growing by more that a million a year, some parts of the world is growing much faster than other parts. So when they balance the books, more new members come in, than leave, which gives a net growth. For example, 1.3 million join the church and 1.1 million leave gives a net  growth of 200,000 and they get excited. Church leaders should be ashamed that they can not stop or slow down the losses and then they church will really grow.

In my opinion, the NAD is in real trouble, the NAD seems to be afraid to do a membership audit, as other divisions have done. I think an audit will reveal that many of the "absent members" who don't come to church, are actually done with the church, and did not inform anyone to remove them. The word "drop out" they use does not account for all the members who dropped out.  Look at the report and the NAD claims a net growth of about 23,000 last year, but if they did an audit, I believe that it would show much more have left then they think and that the NAD is actually shrinking. If that is the true condition, than they should be much more concerned then they are about losing members.

[JoeMo]

29 minutes ago, Mario-One said:

JoeMo, you are one of a rare few to even think about getting disfellowshipped unfairly. The purpose of discipline is not punishment, but a reality check, that you are not right with God.

Hey Mario,

Your posts here are pretty thought provoking.  Just a couple things:

1. I have never been disfellowshipped from the church.  I have "quit attending" a few times out of protest (or in a temper tantrum), but never taken off of the books.

2. Being disfellowshipped (fairly for breaking with established church rules or doctrines) or unfairly (because of some political issue) does NOT mean one is not right with God; it means they are not right with the deomination.  As you know, is some denominations, being wrong with the denomination is actually "getting right" with God.

[Mario-One]

10 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Mario, I agree with you.

As you probably know, in the SDA denomination, there are several levels of Working Policy.   I am going to assume that you referenced the NAD Working Policy.  If so,  you were accurate.

 

 

 

You are correct, I quoted NAD working policy, in this case the GC Working Policy says the same and this is in harmony with Chapter 3 in the Church Manual. Page 29 last paragraph, may be a good topic to discuss, it describes the appeal process. Notice that "An organization to which an appeal is forwarded may choose not to hear the matter, in which case the decision of the highest organization involved in the dispute shall be final."  On Oct. 11th the Annual Council approved "Unity in Mission" document which describes a procedure to deal with non compliance. They voted a different process than what is now written on page 29.  I think that we will see some situations in the near future where the leaders choose not to hear a matter that the 'Unity in Mission' was designed to be heard and to bring to a resolution.

[Mario-One]

4 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Hey Mario,

Your posts here are pretty thought provoking.  Just a couple things:

1. I have never been disfellowshipped from the church.  I have "quit attending" a few times out of protest (or in a temper tantrum), but never taken off of the books.

2. Being disfellowshipped (fairly for breaking with established church rules or doctrines) or unfairly (because of some political issue) does NOT mean one is not right with God; it means they are not right with the deomination.  As you know, is some denominations, being wrong with the denomination is actually "getting right" with God.

My comments are intended to stimulate discussion, I manage a blog on a different venue, but regaining lost members is a topic I have been interested in for years. So here I am on this discussion.  Your comment part 2. "Being disfellowshipped (fairly for breaking with rules or doctrines) . . . does not mean that one is not right with God."  This is an interesting concept. I wrote an article about this last year. Church Manual, page 62, gives the list of 14 reasons for discipline, so for the hearing to be fair, the reason for removal should be in that list. Most of them are moral issues and sins and #11 should be understood clearly.  If a person is actually guilty of the charge and the hearing to conducted fairly, it is approved by heaven. Matthew 18: 18. My article is about an innocent person who is disciplined. I claim that the Lord will not allow an innocent person to be convicted using a fair process. Satan would have to be involved to bring an innocent person to trial, and his signature would have to be some where in the process. If they "railroad" an innocent member out of the church without violating any of his rights as a member (fairness) then heaven is obliged to ratify it according to Matt. 18:18. This would bring sin into heaven, and God will overrule the situation, the way he prevents heaven from ratifying conviction of an innocent person, is that the process is not allowed to be fair. There are many things that Satan can not do, and one of them is to get heaven to ratify sin. 

[Mario-One]

39 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Hey Mario,

Your posts here are pretty thought provoking.  Just a couple things:

1. I have never been disfellowshipped from the church.  I have "quit attending" a few times out of protest (or in a temper tantrum), but never taken off of the books.

2. Being disfellowshipped (fairly for breaking with established church rules or doctrines) or unfairly (because of some political issue) does NOT mean one is not right with God; it means they are not right with the deomination.  As you know, is some denominations, being wrong with the denomination is actually "getting right" with God.

I replied to your reply, but it shows up in a different place, which is the one above this one on my screen. If it stays there, I see no need to copy and paste it here.

[Mario-One]

2 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

I guess that would be the category I am in. Although it does not matter one way or the other to me should my name be "officially" removed 

Church Manual, page 66. "Church leaders should faithfully visit absentee members and encourage them to resume attendance and to enjoy the blessings of worship with the congregation. . . . As long as members are loyal to the doctrines of the church, nonattendance shall not be considered sufficient cause for removal from membership." Have the church leaders been visiting you?  Your comments give me the impression this is a NO.  If they do not visit or contact you they are guilty of neglect of duty, and many are. This helps you to see my point, the member like you does not attend, the leaders do not visit and so they don't know if you keep the doctrines, so you stay on the church roll.  Let's consider the member who becomes 'absentee' status and has fallen away from the doctrine, they don't visit and they don't know if he is just absentee or if should be removed. If they did an audit, it would require them to contact the absentee members and see who still believes and who has fallen away. If NAD does an audit, they will discover thousands more need to be dropped and the result is a more accurate picture of the church membership, it is shrinking in the NAD.

[Mario-One]

3 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Hey Mario,

Your posts here are pretty thought provoking.  Just a couple things:

1. I have never been disfellowshipped from the church.  I have "quit attending" a few times out of protest (or in a temper tantrum), but never taken off of the books.

2. Being disfellowshipped (fairly for breaking with established church rules or doctrines) or unfairly (because of some political issue) does NOT mean one is not right with God; it means they are not right with the deomination.  As you know, is some denominations, being wrong with the denomination is actually "getting right" with God.

Sorry JoeMo, I failed to comment on the second half of 2.  I can agree with you here. Martin Luther is an example of someone who was considered a heretic by his church, but actually got it right with God.  October 31, 2017 will mark 500th anniversary of his 95 thesis which he nailed to the door of the church in Wittenburg.  The Lutherans have made peace with Rome and the protest is over, but we have the inspired writings to guide us . . .

 "It is through divine mercy in giving to the world such men as Martin Luther and his co-laborers that we are now free to worship God according to the dictates of our own conscience. We who are living so near the close of time should emulate the noble example of the great Reformer. Like Luther we should seek a deep and thorough knowledge of the word of God. It should be our highest ambition to stand firm as a rock when the strongholds of truth are assailed by an unbelieving world and an ungodly church. In the near conflict, thousands will be called to imitate Luther's constancy and courage. Now is the time for us to receive education and discipline in the school of Christ. Now is the time to cultivate faith and courage. Let the cry pass from one to another of the waiting ones, Stand fast. "Yet a little while, and He that shall come will come, and will not tarry."  {ST, July 26, 1883 par. 18}