SDA Dropouts

[Mario-One]

56 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Mario, you have suggested that one should use the current edition of the Church  Manual.   The 18th Edition is the a 2010 edition the current edition is a 2016 edition.  In my citations below, I will use the 2016 edition.

The statements that I made as to baptism are found on pages 45 - 48 of the 2016 edition.  Those pages read exactly as I cited them from the revised 17th edition.

The statements that I made related to discipline are found in the section pages 56 - 69 of the 2016 edition.  Please note pages 60, and 61.  The comment that I made related to no additional tests of fellowship are found on page 64.

 

Gregory, you are absolutely right, I stand corrected. What I called 18th edition, is actually the 19th edition. It was published in May 2016 and for some reason I have been calling it the 18th edition for all these months. I have a lot of correspondence to correct now.

I quoted the 17th edition in another comment this is actually the 18th edition from 2010, and I do not find that quote in the 19th edition. This is because the Appendix on page 219 - 233 has been removed, and so the paragraph referencing the Appendix was also removed.

The comment I posted in reply to Gregory  quotes the 11th Vow. The 19th edition says it the same. It seems that the problem is in the wording. "Do you know and understand the fundamental Bible principles as taught by the SDA church? It would be clearer to all reading this that they are talking about the 28 Fundamental Beliefs if they would say "the 28 fundamental Bible principles" - it seems that you are reading vow #11 and not seeing that it requires acceptance of the 28 F.B.

[Mario-One]

6 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Mario:

 

You are coming on target.

The denomination considers some teachings to be essential for initial membership.

It considers spiritual life to be a life of growth.

Therefore it dies NOT require that a person believe and understand every teaching of the denomination in order to be a member.

If it did so, probably few would be members and the denomination could not be an agent of spiritual growth.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Gregory, I still maintain that Vow #11 requires belief in the 28 F.B. and that Reason to discipline #1 makes this clear.  It does not require every teaching to become a member, but it does require the 28 F.B.

On this issue we disagree. Can someone else make a comment on this. I have been overwhelmed by all the messages this discussion has generated, and I have other obligations.  A apologize if I did not respond to some point posted, I'll try to get to it tomorrow.

[Gregory Matthews]

Mario:

There is  considerable difference within the SDA denomination in regard to beliefs that are considered fundamental.

As a pastor, I considered it necessary to instruct baptismal candidates in the so-called 27.  I believe that such was required. and that all should know and understand.  However, wkhen it came to compliance, which is different from knowing and understanding, the so called 13 ruled.

Let me give you two examples of major differences that exist in the SDA denomination:

1) The nature of Christ:  Probably all agree that this doctrine is of major importance.  Yet, within the SDA denomination there are  two major groups.  Each claims to base their belief on the Bible.  Each believes that EGW supports their version.  This difference has existed for most of the time that the SDA denomination existed.  Neither had convinced the other, regardless of much discussion and argument.

2)  Historically the SDA denomination has held certain views as to the Roman Catholic denomination and its place in spiritual history and the future.  There is a major growing element in the SDA denomination today that is replacing some aspects of the historic denominational belief as to the Roman Catholic Church with Islam.

In both of the above doctrines people on all sides are welcomed into the SDA Church.

Mario, there are  issues that in reality must be left for God to resolve.  And, the individual congregation must be a place for growth and not a haven for people who have reached an exaulted realm of spiritual knowledge and behavior.

The SDA Church does not require that every member believe exactly the same on every teaching of the SDA denomination.  There are some aspects of doctrine that are for God to bring into agreement and common understanding if that is needed.  Perhaps, we do not need to agree exactly on every point of doctrine.  If we did, we probably would not need to grow spiritually any more.

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Mario:

The 19th edition of the Church Manual was published in 2015, following the General Conference session in Texas.  Its publisher states that it is  240 pages in length.

My last quotations were taken from the 227 page 2016 edition.  It is actually a revised edition of the 19th edition.  It may not be available in print at this time.  But, it is available in a digital edition for anyone who wants it, free of charge at:

https://www.adventist.org/fileadmin/adventist.org/files/articles/information/seventh-day-adventist-church-manual_2015_updated.pdf

 

 

 

 

[Mario-One]

7 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Mario, pages 32 - 35, of the revised 17th edition,  contain the two (2) Baptismal Vows that are accepted as compliance with the requirement for baptism.

The original contains 13 statements of belief.  The Alternative Vow contains three (3) statements of belief.

It could correctly be stated that the Alternative Vow contains within those three (3) statements requirements for belief that are not contained in the original 13.  But, the denominational position is that either vow meets the requirement for belief to become a SDA member.

I personally always use the original 13.  But, if a baptismal candidate wanted to sue the Alternative Vow, I must allow that person to do so.  And the converse applies.  A pastor who uses the Alternative Vow must allow a candidate to use the original 13.

Look carefully at pages 34 & 35.  Following the baptism the candidate is supposed to be given a baptismal certificate and of commitment.  That certificate is worded after the original 13.  It is not worded in accord with the Alternative Vow.  That wording is in accord with what I have said.

 

 

 

I responded to this in another place. Somehow we got off topic because of SoP. The 17th edition, the 18th edition and the 19th edition all contain the 13 Vows for Baptismal and Profession of Faith candidates,  I call your attention to # 11 Do you know and understand the fundamental Bible principles as taught by the SDA church? Do you purpose, by the grace of God, to fulfill His will by ordering you life in harmony with these principles? The alternate Vow has Fundamental Beliefs in the 2nd Vow.

 I claim these fundamental principles are the 28 F.B. and to support that I call your attention to the list of reasons to discipline a member, found on page 62, the first reason is: Denial of faith in the fundamentals of the gospel and in the fundamental beliefs of the Church or teaching doctrines contrary to the same. A member can be disciplined because they Vowed to accept and keep the F.B.  Spirit of Prophecy is FB # 18 and found on page 168 in the 2015 edition under the title, "The Gift of Prophecy"

[Mario-One]

7 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Mario, you have suggested that one should use the current edition of the Church  Manual.   The 18th Edition is the a 2010 edition the current edition is a 2016 edition.  In my citations below, I will use the 2016 edition.

The statements that I made as to baptism are found on pages 45 - 48 of the 2016 edition.  Those pages read exactly as I cited them from the revised 17th edition.

The statements that I made related to discipline are found in the section pages 56 - 69 of the 2016 edition.  Please note pages 60, and 61.  The comment that I made related to no additional tests of fellowship are found on page 64.

 

Gregory, you are absolutely right, I stand corrected. What I called 18th edition, is actually the 19th edition. It was published in May 2016 and for some reason I have been calling it the 18th edition for all these months. I have a lot of correspondence to correct now.

I quoted the 17th edition in another comment this is actually the 18th edition from 2010, and I do not find that quote in the 19th edition. This is because the Appendix on page 219 - 233 has been removed, and so the paragraph referencing the Appendix was also removed.

The comment I posted in reply to Gregory  quotes the 11th Vow. The 19th edition says it the same. It seems that the problem is in the wording. "Do you know and understand the fundamental Bible principles as taught by the SDA church? It could be clearer to all reading this that they are talking about the 28 Fundamental Beliefs if they would say "the 28 fundamental Bible principles" - it seems that you are reading vow #11 and not seeing that it requires acceptance of the 28 F.B.

[Mario-One]

6 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Mario:

You are coming on target.

The denomination considers some teachings to be essential for initial membership.

It considers spiritual life to be a life of growth.

Therefore it dies NOT require that a person believe and understand every teaching of the denomination in order to be a member.

If it did so, probably few would be members and the denomination could not be an agent of spiritual growth.

 

Gregory, I still maintain that Vow #11 requires belief in the 28 F.B. and that page 62 gives a list of the Reasons to discipline, the first reason makes this clear.  It does not require every teaching to become a member, but it does require the 28 F.B.

On this issue we disagree. Can someone else make a comment on this. I have been overwhelmed by all the messages this discussion has generated, and I have other obligations.  A apologize if I did not respond to some point posted, I'll try to get to it tomorrow.

[Mario-One]

4 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

This does not make any logical sense to me. Its no wonder we are having so many problems keeping the church together. What on earth do you mean when you say "keep" the spirit of prophecy? Or to "keep" any other of the FBs??? 

I said that the wording in the church manual is confusing, they say "know and understand the fundamental Bible principles" when they are talking about the 28 F.B. - it would be clearer if they said 28 F.B.

What I mean by 'keep'  is to accept, believe, practice and apply them to your life.

[Mario-One]

6 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Mario:

There is  considerable difference within the SDA denomination in regard to beliefs that are considered fundamental.

As a pastor, I considered it necessary to instruct baptismal candidates in the so-called 27.  I believe that such was required. and that all should know and understand.  However, wkhen it came to compliance, which is different from knowing and understanding, the so called 13 ruled.

Let me give you two examples of major differences that exist in the SDA denomination:

1) The nature of Christ:  Probably all agree that this doctrine is of major importance.  Yet, within the SDA denomination there are  two major groups.  Each claims to base their belief on the Bible.  Each believes that EGW supports their version.  This difference has existed for most of the time that the SDA denomination existed.  Neither had convinced the other, regardless of much discussion and argument.

2)  Historically the SDA denomination has held certain views as to the Roman Catholic denomination and its place in spiritual history and the future.  There is a major growing element in the SDA denomination today that is replacing some aspects of the historic denominational belief as to the Roman Catholic Church with Islam.

In both of the above doctrines people on all sides are welcomed into the SDA Church.

Mario, there are  issues that in reality must be left for God to resolve.  And, the individual congregation must be a place for growth and not a haven for people who have reached an exaulted realm of spiritual knowledge and behavior.

The SDA Church does not require that every member believe exactly the same on every teaching of the SDA denomination.  There are some aspects of doctrine that are for God to bring into agreement and common understanding if that is needed.  Perhaps, we do not need to agree exactly on every point of doctrine.  If we did, we probably would not need to grow spiritually any more.

 

Gregory, I am trying to understand what you are saying, is it possible that the 13 is the public testimony and they shortened the 28 F.B. for the ceremony?  I still maintain that the first reason for discipline is "denial of faith in the F.B. or teaching doctrines contrary to the same." How do they justify discipline (removal) when the person did not swear to it in the Baptismal vows. Logic dictates that the 13 you refer to includes the 28 F.B.

The Nature of Christ is important, and yes, the SDA denomination is split. But Paul warns us about this, and says that these things will happen in the last days. Woman's Ordination is also important and the GC Sessions voted against it in 1990, and again in 1995 and it came back again in 2015 and they staill voted against it. The church sure has it's share of problems. So lets' leave that to God, and to another discussion. The topic here is Drop outs

Same with the RCC, the Great Controversy is clear that it is the RCC and not Islam that will be dominate in the last days.  Rev. 13 talks about "the image of the beast," and the beast is not Islam. Islam is in Rev. 9. I am not sure if all new members have formed an opinion about RCC vs Islam or about which is the correct Nature of Christ doctrine. These are not what keeps someone from becoming a member. I agree that we should let God lead us into His truth, and that people are not perfect when they come into the church. My interest in this discussion is about lost members and the failure of the church to identify the causes and to address them so they can contact these lost members and bring them back into the church.  I'd like to focus on the DROP OUT topic and not get off on several  tangents like what happened today. 

[Mario-One]

13 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Mario:

The 19th edition of the Church Manual was published in 2015, following the General Conference session in Texas.  Its publisher states that it is  240 pages in length.

My last quotations were taken from the 227 page 2016 edition.  It is actually a revised edition of the 19th edition.  It may not be available in print at this time.  But, it is available in a digital edition for anyone who wants it, free of charge at:

https://www.adventist.org/fileadmin/adventist.org/files/articles/information/seventh-day-adventist-church-manual_2015_updated.pdf

 

                  This is what appears on page 227

INDEX OF SOURCES                                                           227

261-263........................... 57-8 263 ..................................... 61

Volume 8

236, 237 ............................. 27 240 ..................................... 59

Volume 9

91 ..................................... 140 143, 144 ........................... 118

216-218.............................. 60 247 ................................... 135

248 ........................... 136, 137 249 ................................... 135

260 ..................................... 30 261 ..................................... 16

262 ................................... 114

TM—Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers

15 ....................................... 21 16, 17 ................................. 22

17-19 ...............................22-3 26 ....................................... 26

29, 30 ............................... 120 52, 53 ................................. 31

179 ................................... 148 387 ................................... 142

388 ................................... 142 489 ..................................... 25

TMB—Thoughts from the Mount of Blessing

59 ....................................... 59 63 ..................................... 158 64

[Gregory Matthews]

Yes, with the exception of  some formatting changes that have appeared in your copy and paste you have posted page 227, of the 2016 edition of the Church Manual.

I am uncertain as to why you wanted to post that last page. But, that is of little consequence.  I gave the link to the digital edition and you posted the last page of that link.

 

[Mario-One]

29 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Yes, with the exception of  some formatting changes that have appeared in your copy and paste you have posted page 227, of the 2016 edition of the Church Manual.

I am uncertain as to why you wanted to post that last page. But, that is of little consequence.  I gave the link to the digital edition and you posted the last page of that link.

 

I posted what I found on page 227 because in your previous message, you said that "My last quotations were taken from page 227 of church manual (2016 edition)"

Now that you confirm what is on that page, can you be more specific as to the quotes, I have the Book and I have the PDF file, help me to find the quotes, please.

[Gregory Matthews]

No, Mario, I did not say that I took the quotation from page 227 of the 2016 edition.

Here is  what I said:

Quote

My last quotations were taken from the 227 page 2016 edition.

To say that I took my quotation from the 2016 manual which consisted of 227 pages, was an attempt to clearly identify the manual that I referenced.  I did that in an attempt to clairafy to you as I did not want to misidentify the actual manual that I cited.

What I actually said is quite different from saying that I took the quote from page 227.

Anyway, thank you for asking the question and giving me an opportunity to clarify.   I appreciate that.

 

[Mario-One]

19 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

No, Mario, I did not say that I took the quotation from page 227 of the 2016 edition.

Here is  what I said:

To say that I took my quotation from the 2016 manual which consisted of 227 pages, was an attempt to clearly identify the manual that I referenced.  I did that in an attempt to clairafy to you as I did not want to misidentify the actual manual that I cited.

What I actually said is quite different from saying that I took the quote from page 227.

Anyway, thank you for asking the question and giving me an opportunity to clarify.   I appreciate that.

 

Ahh, now it makes sense. It is all my fault for calling the current edition the 18th edition when it is actually the 19th edition, and that carried oven when I called the 16th edition the 17th edition. I lost count and in the 8 months that I have sent out quotations, no one pointed it out that my quote was not on the page I said it was, because I was calling it the 18th edition when it was actually the 19th edition. So thanks for the reality check. 

[Gregory Matthews]

Accurate communication can be hard work.  Much of our communication has a basis in our personal history, culture and  background in the various languages that we speak.  If I were to suppose that you are fluent in a Spanish language, that would imply that you and might have some different understandings  in the English in which we communicate.

Thanks for working with me on this.