Islam, Christianity & Prophecy

[phkrause]

Watched all 3 lectures today, they are excellent!!

Doug Batchelor Sermons 2016: Sibling Rivalry - Islam, Christianity & Prophecy, Pt. 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYUYLInKYbo

Doug Batchelor Sermons 2016: From Mecca to Rome - Islam, Christianity & Prophecy, Pt. 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZW8KEkLyR5g

Critical Mass - Islam, Christianity & Prophecy, Pt. 3 - Doug Batchelor 2016

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2738BmalBw

[Gregory Matthews]

Can you tell us in 30 words or less what DB says on the subject?

 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Here are written synopses of all three videos (lots easier to go through than the hour-long videos):

1) https://thecompassmagazine.com/news/pastor-doug-batchelor-presents-new-light-on-islam

2) https://thecompassmagazine.com/news/from-mecca-to-rome-islam-in-bible-prophecy

3) http://www.cvvnet.org/m/index.php?cmd=view&id=220997

[Gregory Matthews]

The Wanderer:  Your five words are an evaluation, not a statement of his belief.  

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Thank you. And you did it in 21 words.

 

 

[Sojourner]

I disagree that the current issues around Islamic fundamentalism will bring about 'final events'. That will more likely be the case when the gospel has reached all the people of the world including all muslim countries and tribes. 

Events in Israel are a far better gauge of the fulfilment of biblical prophecy. 

[Gregory Matthews]

You come across to me as NOT being an avid follower of Doug Batchelor. 

 

 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

7 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

the physical State of Israel will have very little do do with anything that "brings on final events* that is NOT the place to watch either. 

that's your opinion, just as what Doug Batchelor states, is *his* studied opinion.

nobody's forcing anyone to believe anything... it behooves everyone not to have one person, or one source,  as their spiritual pedagogue on the meaning of scripture ...

[Gregory Matthews]

pedagogue

noun academician, adviser, classmaster, don, educator, expounder, faculty member, governor, guide, headmaster, inculcator, instructor, learned man, lecturer, magister, man of letters, master, preceptor, professor, sage, scholar, schoolman, schoolmaster, schoolteacher, teacher, trainer, tutor

[Gregory Matthews]

As I understand Pam's post, she did not suggest that you were calling DB a pedagogue.

As I read it one could draw any of two (2) inferences from her post:

a) She was calling DB A pedagogue

'b) She was calling you a pedagogue.

Perhaps she was doing neither?  Perhaps she was only doing one of the above.  In any case, I did not perceive her post to be a negative.  I would not be offended if anyone here called me a pedagogue. 

By the way, the reason that I posted the web dictionary definition that I posted  was because it most closely met the standard dictionary definition that I had learned many years ago.  It meets the definition of my current American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language.

[debbym]

I  also do not believe what happens with Israel is directly linked to last day events.

A lot of people believe that when Jesus comes the second time he will stand on the mount of Olives, and they are focused on Israel as an indicator.

Much support for Israel comes from evangelicals in no small number.

seems as if one does not suport the Israeli state they are automatically regarded as anti-semitic.

[phkrause]

On 12/24/2016 at 11:22 PM, Gregory Matthews said:

Can you tell us in 30 words or less what DB says on the subject?

 

Probably not Gregory! Besides hearing things second hand never gets the desired meaning that was intended. I believe if you watch the videos you will see that what the three articles that Pam posted about DB, are already changing somethings that DB mentioned! I'll give one example: According to Pastor Batchelor, Islam is growing much faster than Christianity. That statement is not what he said!! It was not according to DB, but to some stats that he read from others. I could mention others, but you get the picture. I like to hear things first hand. So that's why I posted the videos, personally I would not do DB or his message any justice.

[phkrause]

On 12/25/2016 at 8:52 PM, Sojourner said:

I disagree that the current issues around Islamic fundamentalism will bring about 'final events'.

Not at all what DB stated!!

[phkrause]

On 12/25/2016 at 8:52 PM, Sojourner said:

Events in Israel are a far better gauge of the fulfilment of biblical prophecy. 

Events in Israel, in my opinion, are no gauge of anything!!

[phkrause]

1 hour ago, debbym said:

I  also do not believe what happens with Israel is directly linked to last day events.

A lot of people believe that when Jesus comes the second time he will stand on the mount of Olives, and they are focused on Israel as an indicator.

Much support for Israel comes from evangelicals in no small number.

seems as if one does not suport the Israeli state they are automatically regarded as anti-semitic.

Exactly, excellent points!

[phkrause]

1 minute ago, The Wanderer said:

Its not hard to get duped on the internet. Like I said earlier, one can find "evidence" for anything they want to now, and one can make something mean whatever they want to. It is indeed better to listen to the actual source. Lesson noted.

For me, I thought that what DB offered made a lot of sense. I know that Steve Wohlberg also had something to say on Islams role in the time of the end!

[Kevin H]

I'm open to the possibility that there are two extremes. One is that the middle east no longer has anything to do with last day events, the other is that it will be central for last day events.

Deuteronomy 4 gives two possible histories of Israel. One is staying in the land, being faithful and  blessed and having the world come to them. The other is how God would use them in exile from the promised land and their mission would be to "go ye in to all the world."

Back when God was offering to use Israel in the land, that piece of property was the center of the world. It was the junction of the major trade routes between Europe, Asia and Africa. Today it no longer occupies such a central place thus no longer provides the potential that the land had back in ancient times. Of Deuteronomy 4 the only viable application is exile theology.

However, the land is central to people of the book. The 3 monotheistic religions. People who have truth but will either use it in a respectful way and be used by God, or used in ways of self exaltation and be used by Satan.  Also, among the fundamentalist movement of all 3 groups the Christians and Muslims are expecting Jesus to come to Jerusalem and the Fundamentalist Jews are expecting the Messiah to come in the same way. So the middle east will be a field of examples in both how God can use people from all three groups and how Satan will use people from all three groups.

[Samie]

In my opinion, the glorious or beautiful land referred to in Dan 11:16 is Israel.  If that is correct, then it is hard to imagine that the Middle East is NOT linked to last day events. 

KJV Daniel 11:16 But he that cometh against him shall do according to his own will, and none shall stand before him: and he shall stand in the glorious land, which by his hand shall be consumed.

If the glorious land is not Israel, I have yet no idea as to what country would that be.

Ezekiel 20:6   In the day that I lifted up mine hand unto them, to bring them forth of the land of Egypt into a land that I had espied for them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands:

[Kevin H]

3 hours ago, Samie said:

In my opinion, the glorious or beautiful land referred to in Dan 11:16 is Israel.  If that is correct, then it is hard to imagine that the Middle East is NOT linked to last day events. 

KJV Daniel 11:16 But he that cometh against him shall do according to his own will, and none shall stand before him: and he shall stand in the glorious land, which by his hand shall be consumed.

If the glorious land is not Israel, I have yet no idea as to what country would that be.

Ezekiel 20:6   In the day that I lifted up mine hand unto them, to bring them forth of the land of Egypt into a land that I had espied for them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands:

Samie: Yes the "glorious land" in Daniel 11:16 is Israel. The problem is that the exact details of Daniel 9-12 is what would have happened had the Hebrews been faithful as they returned and accepted Christ when he came.

Something very similar will happen in our last days, but we have to be careful to not confuse our last days with the last days that they could have had. As we learn what could have happened we can understand better what went wrong to correct those mistakes, and we can understand what we will be facing.

[Samie]

7 hours ago, Kevin H said:

Samie: Yes the "glorious land" in Daniel 11:16 is Israel. The problem is that the exact details of Daniel 9-12 is what would have happened had the Hebrews been faithful as they returned and accepted Christ when he came.

In my opinion, when Christ referred to the setting up of the abomination of desolation (AoD) as triggering the occurrence of the great tribulation or time of trouble, He was speaking about the end times just shortly before His Second (NOT His first) Coming.

And the AoD is SPECIFICALLY mentioned in Dan 11.

NAS Daniel 11:31 "And forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. And they will set up the abomination of desolation.

[phkrause]

12 minutes ago, Samie said:

NAS Daniel 11:31 "And forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. And they will set up the abomination of desolation.

What sacrifice's are we doing today? Do you know of anybody doing animal sacrifice's for sin's??

[Samie]

3 hours ago, phkrause said:

What sacrifice's are we doing today? Do you know of anybody doing animal sacrifice's for sin's??

We will know what dymiT' (tamiyd) Daniel speaks about when the prophecy is fulfilled.

I simply believe that Jesus was speaking about the end times when He spoke about the AoD because that was part of His answer to the 3-fold question posed by His disciples relative to the signs of His return and of the end of the world. 

I think I have no other alternative to my own belief that the great tribulation = the time of trouble and that it will find fulfillment shortly before our Lord comes again UNLESS & UNTIL someone shows me from Scriptures of a better choice.

[Kevin H]

There is a very important article in the Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary titled "The Role of Israel in Old Testament Prophecy." While that article gives a good overview, you can also take the principles of that article and come up with more specific applications to different periods of history. Had Jesus been accepted when he came, there would not have needed to be a second coming. Things could have wrapped up with the first coming. Also, an exegesis of Mathew 24 and the other chapters did indeed tie together the fall of the temple with the second coming. A major reason why the church lost it's first love in Revelation was that the temple fell and Jesus did not come. (One of the theories behind the book of Hebrews is that it is explaining the great disappointment of 70 AD.) [related to this is that one of Desmond Ford's mistakes was that he clearly saw that the New Testament Church was looking forward to the second coming in their day. Sadly he thought that the second coming that they were looking for was the only Biblical second coming instead of seeing the many different times that he could have come had the gospel been spread.]

Once again we must not confuse our eschatology with the possible eschatologies that we have had all through history.

[Samie]

29 minutes ago, Kevin H said:

Once again we must not confuse our eschatology with the possible eschatologies that we have had all through history.

For me, "possible eschatologies" allude to various, instead of a unique, fulfillment of AoD and GT.

I think Jesus was referring to a specific abomination of desolation the setting up of which will trigger the great tribulation = the time of trouble, the occurrence of which is just shortly before the Second Coming.

KJV Daniel 12:1-2  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.   And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

[Dave Watchman]

Batchelor explained that at times, in the Bible and in the Middle East, people would think they were seeing smoke from a fire, but when it got closer they would realize it was a swarm of locusts. This is what John is seeing in vision.

Furthermore, the “locusts” can be identified as Arabs and the descendants of Ishmael, by referencing the story of Gideon in the book of Judges (Judges 7:12). Thus the “smoke” coming out of the pit is the birth and spread of the religion of Muhammad (570-632 AD).

The angel is a messenger, but this is a fallen messenger, which probably represent Muhammad. Around this same time another religion rose up, apostate Christianity, which was loosely based on Scripture but was commingled with pagan sun worship, whereas Islam was mingled with pagan moon worship. This was the first woe and fifth trumpet.

Many theologians identify the 5th and 6th trumpets as the rise and spread of Islam through its battles with the Byzantine Empire and western Christendom. Supporters of this interpretation include Martin Luther, Isaac Newton, Edward Gibbon, and others.

3) http://www.cvvnet.org/m/index.php?cmd=view&id=220997

I copied the above from the 3rd link in the 3rd post by rudywoofs. It's tough to squeeze 3 hours into 30 words or less.

On 12/24/2016 at 11:03 PM, phkrause said:

Watched all 3 lectures today, they are excellent!!

I Watched all 3 lectures today too, I'm sorry that I can't say that I think they're excellent. I don't think that I could have done it in the summertime. David Asscherick could have compressed the 3 hours into 45 minutes just by talking faster. But I did enjoy them after all, there's always something that I need to learn. Like the part when Doug quoted what the angel of the lord said about how Ishmael would behave, from Genesis 16:

"And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.

"And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

I deal with a couple hundred of these guys at an Islamic grocery store. This describes them to a tee. The women are cool and will talk in a normal way to you but the men look at you like they're mad all the time. They keep to themselves, it's tough doing business with them. But they're smart. Coming from Lebanon they speak Arabic, French and English.

Although I do like Doug Batchelor. I think that he's a good guy. I started my eschatology training in 2012 by watching every David Asscherick video twice. Then I graduated to watching every Doug Batchelor video twice, so i feel like I know those guys. But I don't agree with everything that they say. I can tell that Doug is worried. His recent update video is a quicker watch of around 20 minutes and I could feel the tension.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18IizPIQy7Y

My read on this subject is a bit more worrisome than these videos show. So it can actually be comforting at this time to think that the 5th trumpet is the rise of Islam and is something that happened in the past. Doug shows a graph about how Islam will overtake Christianity by 2050. I'll bet you guys any money, Islam is not going to be a problem by 2050. So Doug thinks that the 5th trumpet locusts of Revelation 9 are the rise of Islam,

"They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer).

I can entertain some fairly out of the box ideas but I just can't agree with this "destroyer" guy being Mohammed coming up from the Abyss. Fast forward a bit to just before the 7th trumpet in Revelation 11 and recall the fate of the two witnesses.

"Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.

The angel king of the Abyss, who's name is Abaddon and Apollyon (that is, Destroyer), is also the "beast who comes up from the Abyss" and will kill the two witnesses. Does this mean that Mohammed is coming back to life and up out of the Abyss in order to kill the two witnesses? According to these videos, the two witnesses must be Judaism and Christianity. Did anyone believe this? See how easy it is to get cross wired in a misunderstanding of Biblical Eschatology, let no man deceive you by any means. I've just got to mention one last thing that bugged me about Doug's schematic, the 6th trumpet.

"It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind.

Doug is trying to add up "this very hour and day and month and year" and arrive at 391 years and 15 days of literal time. And so he says this was from 1449 until 1880 while Islamic forces were released to kill God's people. But the Script doesn't say that the angels were released to kill a third of Christians, it says that they were released to kill a third of mankind. And there is no basis for adding the hour, the day, the month and the year and then translating these into a prophetic time period.

The 6th trumpet is simply pointing to a very specific and punctiliar point in time, occurring at a definite and particular place in time. A specific hour, a specific day, a specific month and a specific year. This also points to the appointed time of the end being a predestined period, this reminds me of this verse from Acts 17:

"because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

I wonder, does anyone read this and think that we're supposed to translate the day that is "FIXED" into a 360 day prophetic year? I guess that anything's possible. Maybe this is Isaiah 34's "year " of recompense. But I honestly doubt it.

"For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
a year of recompense for the cause of Zion.

Islam is nothing for us to worry about, unless you live in the middle east. They're just a small part of the composite beast from Revelation 13. They are one of the five who are fallen, or proved false, by Jesus' first Visitation.

This should be a piece of cake for the SDA people. Remember General Berthier in 1798 giving the beast his mortal head wound? If we could just take the next step and recognize that the office of the Vatican has now become the healed head, wounded by the sword and yet lived, from Revelation 13:

"One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed,

Then all that we need to is to realize is that if one of the 7 heads IS the healed Papacy from 1798, then the other 6 heads must be something of the same kind. And each of the seven heads have "blasphemous names" on them. So they must have something to do with religion, worship or a belief system of some kind. They are the 7 prominent religious authorities or belief systems that we have in our world today.

"This calls for a mind with wisdom:

the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated;

they are also seven kings,

five of whom have fallen,

one is,

the other has not yet come,

and when he does come he must remain only a little while.

When the angel spoke with John in AD95, five had already "fallen", but "fallen" here doesn't mean that they're out of business. It just means they've been proven false or corrupt, like a "fallen" woman. So when the angel spoke with John the five that had fallen were proved false after Jesus died and was resurrected. They were the five main religious authorities in existence at that time:

1) Atheism.

2) Paganism.

3) Eastern Mysticism.

4) Mohammedanism. (Islam)

5) Judaism.

When the angel spoke with John, the early Christian church was currently forming and would become known as the one that "is" which we know as:

6) Catholicism

The "the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while" arose in the middle ages thanks to the reformers like Martin Luther in 1517 and is known as:

7) Protestantism

In Doug's 23 minute update video he was worried about the Pope signing an agreement on the 500 year anniversary of Protestantism that might signal some kind of amalgamation of the Christian religions. It was a bit spooky but whatever the detail of what's going on or about to happen, it feels like it's ready to let loose. But I honestly wouldn't worry about a combining of these two churches, anymore than I'd worry about Islam overtaking Christianity in 2050. Eventually all seven of these heads will become just a part of Revelation's composite beast and will be controlled by the 8th "king" which will be Lucifer's theocratic church/state, the mother of all harlots: Babylon.

She sounds like a sweetie.

Peaceful Sabbath.