Islam, Christianity & Prophecy

[phkrause]

10 hours ago, Dave Watchman said:

I Watched all 3 lectures today too, I'm sorry that I can't say that I think they're excellent. I don't think that I could have done it in the summertime. David Asscherick could have compressed the 3 hours into 45 minutes just by talking faster.

Don't need to be sorry at all Dave. At least you watched them. And did you mean David Asscherick or Doug Batchelor?

 

10 hours ago, Dave Watchman said:

Many theologians identify the 5th and 6th trumpets as the rise and spread of Islam through its battles with the Byzantine Empire and western Christendom. Supporters of this interpretation include Martin Luther, Isaac Newton, Edward Gibbon, and others.

Also from what I heard DB saying, that if the 5th and 6th trumpet is Islam, its possible that the 7th T also is talking about Islam. I don't believe he's trying to replace the beast from RCC to Islam at all.

I'm glad you enjoyed the videos.

[Samie]

12 hours ago, Dave Watchman said:

When the angel spoke with John in AD95, five had already "fallen", but "fallen" here doesn't mean that they're out of business. It just means they've been proven false or corrupt, like a "fallen" woman. So when the angel spoke with John the five that had fallen were proved false after Jesus died and was resurrected. They were the five main religious authorities in existence at that time:

1) Atheism.

2) Paganism.

3) Eastern Mysticism.

4) Mohammedanism. (Islam)

5) Judaism.

Was Mohammedanism (Islam) already in existence circa AD 95?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

29 minutes ago, Samie said:

Was Mohammedanism (Islam) already in existence circa AD 95?

no

[Samie]

2 hours ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

no

I want to know how Dave came up with Mohammedanism circa AD 95.

[Dave Watchman]

10 hours ago, Samie said:

I want to know how Dave came up with Mohammedanism circa AD 95.

I want to know how Dave came up with the SPELLING of Mohammedanism.

As usual, Google is Dave's friend and spell checker:

Mohammedan (also spelled Muhammadan, Mahommedan, Mahomedan or Mahometan) is a term for a follower of the Islamic prophet Muhammad. It is used as both a noun and an adjective, meaning belonging or relating to, either Muhammad or the religion, doctrines, institutions and practices that he established.

 

But you are correct Samie, the term "Mohammedanism" was not around circa AD 95, but Ishmael and his descendants had been praying to Allah since he and his mother were alone in the desert.

 

In one of Doug's videos in the OP he remarked that even people in Christian churches in the middle east will use the name "Allah" when praying to the God of our Bible.

 

The title, "Mohammedanism", as I've used it, was intended to refer to the ancient religion of Ishmael. Even though Mohammed lived during the sixth century A.D., Moslem's will claim that Ishmael, the first offspring of Abraham, is the founder of Islam.

 

Wikipedia's mention of "Islam" as an "Abrahamic" religion should be a heads up that this Muslim religious belief system is much older than the alleged (prophet) Muhammed.

I think that the best date that I've found for the year of the Exodus is 1437BC. So go back 400 years from then and it puts us into the time of Jacob, Issac, Ishmael and Abraham. So yes, while I can't seem to find a suitable label for it, Ishmael's version of his Muslim Abrahamic religion had to be around before AD95.

 

"Ishmael is recognized as an important prophet and patriarch of Islam. - Wikipedia.

 

Think about it like this, if Ishmael was the patriarch and a prophet of Islam, the Muslim religion MUST have been around before Muhammed dictated the Qur'an and AD 95. 

 

Google can also be Samie's friend too:

 

Origin of Islam: According to Islam
The origin of Islam is generally accredited to the prophet Muhammad but to the devout Muslim, Islam began long before Muhammad ever walked the earth. The Qur'an was dictated by Muhammad but, according to the Qur'an, it did not originate with Muhammad. The Qur'an testifies of itself that it was given by God through the angel Gabriel to the prophet Muhammad. "This is a revelation from the Lord of the universe.

http://www.allaboutreligion.org/origin-of-islam.htm

 

Islam

Lineage of six prominent prophets according to Islamic tradition
Adam                   Nūḥ (Noah)                       Ibrāhīm (Abraham)                                     Ismāʿīl (Ishmael)   Iṣḥāq (Isaac)                                   Mūsa (Moses)                                 Maryam (Mary)                       ʿĪsā (Jesus)             Abdul-Muttalib                   Muhammad
Dotted lines indicate multiple generations

Ishmael is recognized as an important prophet and patriarch of Islam. Muslims believe that Ishmael was the firstborn of Abraham, born to him from his second wife Hagar.

Ishmael is recognized by Muslims as the ancestor of several prominent Arab tribes and being the forefather of Muhammad.^[36]

 

Muslims also believe that Muhammad was the descendant of Ishmael that would establish a great nation, as promised by God in the Old Testament.^[37][38]

Ishmael in the Quran

Ishmael is mentioned over ten times in the Quran,^{[citation needed]} often alongside other patriarchs and prophets of ancient times. Ishmael is mentioned together with Elisha and Dhul-Kifl as one of "the patiently enduring and righteous, whom God caused to enter into his mercy."^[39] It is also said of Lot, Elisha, Jonah and Ishmael, that God gave each one "preference above the worlds".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishmael#cite_note-42

And there's one more thing Samie,

When the angel spoke with John in 95 AD, the early Christian church was currently forming and would become known as the one that "is" which we NOW know as:

6) Catholicism.

But the term "Catholicism" was not in existence in AD 95 and neither was the name "Catholic" used until the 2nd century.

"The term Catholic (usually written with uppercase C in English) was first used to describe the Christian Church in the early 2nd century to emphasize its universal scope. In the context of Christian ecclesiology, it has a rich history and several usages.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_(term)#Historical_use

But we should still be able to recognize that the early Christian church which would become known to us as "Catholic", in AD95 was the one that "is" and had not yet "fallen" from grace.

They are also seven kings,
five of whom have fallen,

KING:
2.a. Something that is supreme or preeminent in a particular group, category, or sphere.

"In many countries, soccer is the king of sports" (Cameron W. Barr).

b.a person or thing preeminent in its class.

So not only can it be said that soccer is the "king" of sports, here in the USA it can be said that Budweiser is the "king" of beers.

Would it also be accurate to say that Islam is the "king" of middle eastern religion? Or that Eastern Mysticism is the "king" of Asian religious belief systems?

Fallen woman
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The term fallen woman was used to describe a woman who has "lost her innocence", and fallen from the grace of God. In 19th-century Britain especially, the meaning came to be closely associated with the loss or surrender of a woman's chastity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallen_woman

(All of this Islam stuff is making me feel Islamabad)

 

[Dave Watchman]

16 hours ago, phkrause said:

Don't need to be sorry at all Dave. At least you watched them. And did you mean David Asscherick or Doug Batchelor?

I meant to show an example of how David A. could preach more words per second than Doug B. David's high pitched voice can be hard for some to listen to but he can cover more information in a smaller amount of time. Years ago he did a series of prophecy seminars in my home town of Sterling Heights Michigan. They're stating to look like an old VHS tape now but just try to watch the first five minutes of this one and notice how fast he can go. I think that he's in Australia now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obDH07-I3Vc

 

 

16 hours ago, phkrause said:

Also from what I heard DB saying, that if the 5th and 6th trumpet is Islam, its possible that the 7th T also is talking about Islam. I don't believe he's trying to replace the beast from RCC to Islam at all.

I'm glad you enjoyed the videos.

And thank you for posting them. They did offer a welcome detour from what I was doing and allowed some rest for my neurotransmitters.

No, he's not trying to replace the standard identity of the beast. He's saying that Daniel 11's "king of the north" is the RCC, they are geographically to the north of Israel. Then he's saying that Daniel 11's "king of the south" is Islam, they are geographically to the south of Israel. I remain in a respectful disagreement with this schematic.

It's funny that you mention it Krause, I was thinking about the 7th trumpet while I was writing my other note. But I knew that I'd better stop or it would be too long of a message. I think that the third woe is NOT going to be a woe for us here.  But that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel the mystery of God will be fulfilled. We are going to be in the air with Jesus while He destroys the destroyers of the Earth.

The idea here is that if Doug is correct about the 5th and 6th trumpet it means that we go from the crusades and the Ottoman empire right to Paul's last trump which is the second coming. I don't think so.  I don't know if I'm more worried about how Doug will be if I'm right or how I will be if Doug is right. But I think that DB is probably safe within the doctrines of his General Conference which, as i remember, still has the trumpets slotted as being historical.

I lifted this from a post by "Gibs" on the trumpets, and will yield to him the last word:

 

"And then! "Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded!"

 

Quote

"The power of the Holy Ghost must be upon us, and the Captain of the Lord's host will stand at the head of the angels of heaven to direct the battle.

Solemn events before us are yet to transpire.

Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded, vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth. {1888 762.1}

I don't fault her for seeing increasing light and it is clear in 1888 she saw the trumpets were yet to transpire and then the vials of wrath. - Gibs.

[Samie]

Thank you for your response, Dave.

[Sojourner]

Interesting that in all the prophecies attributed to Ellen White she had nothing to mention on the religion of Islam..? If Islam were of signifigance to last day events in the theology of the SDA and Doug Batchelor, is it not reasonable that the denomination's founding prophet would have mentioned it? Considering all the various seminars that the SDA have run over the years on Daniel / Revelation, why could Islam and its relevance be so easilly missed?  

Could it be that when we are instructed to 'pray for the peace of Jerusalem' that it is actually now more relevant now than ever? 

[phkrause]

14 hours ago, Sojourner said:

Interesting that in all the prophecies attributed to Ellen White she had nothing to mention on the religion of Islam..? If Islam were of signifigance to last day events in the theology of the SDA and Doug Batchelor, is it not reasonable that the denomination's founding prophet would have mentioned it? Considering all the various seminars that the SDA have run over the years on Daniel / Revelation, why could Islam and its relevance be so easilly missed?  

Could it be that when we are instructed to 'pray for the peace of Jerusalem' that it is actually now more relevant now than ever? 

I think that one reason that we are hearing more about Islam from Doug Batchelor, Steve Wohlberg, etc., is because so many are now thinking that Islam instead of catholicism is the biggie!! If you go to the AFTV website, there is a series of about 7 videos called Prophecy Alert. There he goes into a little more detail I believe how the Pope reigns in Islam. You have to watch them to really get the jest of what he's saying, I would not do it any justice by trying to explain it here. I always believe that going to the source and hearing it firsthand is much better than someone trying to explain it second and third hand!!