Clio Posted March 23, 2006 Posted March 23, 2006 Cry. And then pray for him with tears of anguish. Time is short. Business as usual is no longer usual. A heart where He alone has first place.
there buster Posted March 23, 2006 Posted March 23, 2006 Quote: Does it read, "Love your neighbor and love yourself?" or does it say, "Love your neighbor AS yourself"? Yes, the latter....In fact you can never really love your neighbor IF you love yourself. There you go again. Let's simply apply what you say. Love your neighbor as you love yourself. As means: in the same way or, at the same time. So lets substitute those definitions for the word "as" Love your neighbor in the same way you love yourself. But, according to the "word of the Robert" you must not love yourself. So, not loving yourself, and loving your neighbor in the same way, you would not love your neighbor. If you love your neighbor at the same time as you love yourself, but you don't love yourself, then you won't love your neighbor either. Face it, Robert. Your argument is self-contradicting. Quote: I am really amazed with stupidity and self-righteousness that abounds here. The reason you fight this is because you don't want to be exposed as sinners falling short of God's selfless love. You are, as I have always stated, self-righteous legalists! Apparently you love all of us in exactly the same way you recoommend we love ourselves: not at all. Your conduct does not recommend your interpretation of love. As for the "abounding stupidity and self-righteousness," it is within your power to reduce it significantly. “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted March 23, 2006 Moderators Posted March 23, 2006 Robert: Please do not use the language you used in # 210757, I just read it now. It has been posted so long many have read it. But, take yourself in hand, get control, and be more polite. Gregory
David Koot Posted March 24, 2006 Posted March 24, 2006 Quote: Robert said: Quote: David Koot said: There is a self-love that is appropriate. Jesus said that we should love our neighbor as we love ourselves. Again, that is a blatant lie! Jesus didn't give two commands: 1] Love self and 2] Love your neighbor No, He said: A] Love your neighbor AS B] you love yourself. The command is to stop loving "self" and love your neighbor. I have never heard this view before. It is new to me. I have followed with interest, the discussion about this point. Intriguing. Out of curiosity, I went back to the Greek text. Once again, quoting from Nestle-Aland: agapeeseis ton pleesion sou hos seauton Very well. 'agapeeseis,' the principled, Divine love. 'seauton' is a REFLEXIVE pronoun, 'yourself.' 'hos' is a subordinating, comparative conjunction, meaning 'as' or 'like'. To my thinking, all three words are indicative of Christ's intent behind this statement. The 'love' He speaks of, is the principled, Divine love, rather than selfish love. The conjunction, 'hos' is subordinating and comparative, rather than adversative. This seems quite important to me. If the speaker's intent were otherwise, we might expect Him to have said, "You shall love your neighbor INSTEAD of yourself." But, Jesus clearly said that we should love others [agape] as we love ourselves [agape] THAT, I believe, is where the REFLEXIVE pronoun is significant: 'seauton,' pointing to the meaning of 'in like manner.' I am also reminded of Ephesians 5:28, 29: "Eph 5:28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church." Once again, the Greek word refers to the 'agape' love (verb 'agapan'--pres. act. inf.) This seems to be consistent with the first reference, loving one's neighbor as oneself--the principled love which God has for us. In summary, the Greek text seems to this student, to clearly state that we should love our neighbors--and our wives--in the same way we love ourselves--the principled, 'agape' love which God has for each of us. David Koot
Robert Posted March 25, 2006 Author Posted March 25, 2006 Quote: David Koot said: Jesus clearly said that we should love others [agape] as we love ourselves [agape] Self-love is not agape! Agape is always outward, never inward. We are born loving ourselves, period. That's the problem. Give one 3 year old a toy and another one no toy and watch the fight begin. Why? Self-love! Quote: I am also reminded of Ephesians 5:28, 29: Let's examine the context: 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her; If Christ loved Himself He would had never surrendered His life to the 2nd death - the goodbye forever death. Instead He loved His enemies more. There's no inward love in agape. ...28 So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; 29 for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it... Sounds like Paul is talking about taking care of one's "body"! He's not talking about this preoccupation with "self". He's talking about food and clothing for he states, "but if we have food and clothing, with these we shall be content." [1 Tim 6:8] 31 For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh. The idea here is the wife and the husband have become ONE. Therefore if you care for your wife you're caring for yourself because you are one and the same. Nothing is said of this preoccupation with self. Jesus "denied" Himself...he didn't "love Himself"! Jesus lived a selfless life. That doesn't mean that Jesus wasn't an individual...it means that His all-consuming motivation was to live for others and never Himself.
Robert Posted March 25, 2006 Author Posted March 25, 2006 Quote: Clio said: Cry. And then pray for him with tears of anguish. I will pray for your self-righteous attitude.....
Robert Posted March 25, 2006 Author Posted March 25, 2006 Quote: Ed Dickerson said: Face it, Robert. Your argument is self-contradicting. Not at all....You build a straw man and create your own self-contradictions. Matt 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies.... Okay...let's go with your brand of "self-love"....According to you I must love myself. Therefore given the above I must love my enemies and myself. Okay, let's test this: Luke 6:33 "if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back." I would call someone who stole from me an enemy. According to the above, "agape" demands I do not demand it back! It also demands no repayment [see verses 34,35]. According to your theology I should love myself...I should demand repayment...I should demand MY goods back or I do not love my enemy, but the Bible says opposite. Rob
LifeHiscost Posted March 25, 2006 Posted March 25, 2006 Quote: David Koot said: Jesus said that we should love our neighbor as >>we love ourselves.<< David Koot David, Thank you for a post that was able to minister to my own needs. While I don't spend a lot of time sensing concern whether loving myself is important, it does appear one cannot give away what they do not have. In fact the Bible states that what we give is what we will get back. [:"red"] "Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap." [/] Galatians 6:7 NASB And BTW, I can remember going through a period when self-loathing was a predominant attitude controlling my behaviour. During that time I can remember no positive contacts in reaching people for Christ. I have not left the self-loathing of my sinful nature, and I see the pain and hurt it brings to other's lives. But there is a difference in loathing one's old nature, and loathing the new creation that Christ promises to those who believe and abide in Him. It is that new creation I make effort to live, for the sake of Jesus and His children. And it is that new creation that is easy to love, easy to give away, and which will be resurrected in the judgement day. [:"red"] "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." [/] Galatians 2:20 KJV The old nature I give to Christ each day. He knows how to deal with it in a manner I cannot fathom. And since the new creation is born of Him, it is not difficult to love with humility. And since each person has their own burden to bear, it is not difficult for me to love them as I love my new creation in Christ. [:"red"] " For each one will bear his own load" [/] Gal 6:5 NASB [:"red"] "Therefore if any person is [ingrafted] in Christ (the Messiah) he is a new creation (a new creature altogether); the old [previous moral and spiritual condition] has passed away. Behold, the fresh and new has come! " [/] 2 Corinthians 5:17 AMP [:"red"] "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" [/] John 11:26 KJV Keep looking up!! Lift Jesus up!!
Robert Posted March 25, 2006 Author Posted March 25, 2006 Quote: David Koot said: Once again, quoting from Nestle-Aland: I've quoted Jack Sequeira. Now I'll quote EGW: "The lover of self is a transgressor of the law" COl 392 "With this truth Christ connects the lesson of self-sacrifice that all should learn: "He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal." All who would bring forth fruit as workers together with Christ must first fall into the ground and die. The life must be cast into the furrow of the world's need. Self-love self-interest, must perish. And the law of self-sacrifice is the law of self-preservation." DA 623 "It will be seen that the glory shining in the face of Jesus is the glory of self-sacrificing love. In the light from Calvary it will be seen that the law of self-renouncing love is the law of life for earth and heaven; that the love which "seeketh not her own" has its source in the heart of God; and that in the meek and lowly One is manifested the character of Him who dwelleth in the light which no man can approach unto." DA 19
Robert Posted March 25, 2006 Author Posted March 25, 2006 1 Cor 10:24 Let no man seek his own, but every man another’s wealth.
there buster Posted March 25, 2006 Posted March 25, 2006 Quote: According to your theology I should love myself...I should demand repayment...I should demand MY goods back or I do not love my enemy, but the Bible says opposite. Like most of your verbiage, it simply does not follow. You must stop putting words in other people's mouths. It's unsanitary. Interesting that you keep diverting attention from your main text. If your main text simply does not say what you want it to, there's no point running around Scripture bringing in other verses. Stick to the main text. "Love your neighbor as you love yourself." What does "as" mean, Robert? Don't run off to Jack Sequeira, or fifteen verses you choose by free association. Just answer that simple question. What does "as" mean? “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell
there buster Posted March 25, 2006 Posted March 25, 2006 Quote: I will pray for your self-righteous attitude..... An attack isn't an argument. It only demonstrates that you have lost the argument. And, if this is your idea of loving your neighbor, please spare me from such love. And we wonder why the young leave our church in droves! “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell
Robert Posted March 25, 2006 Author Posted March 25, 2006 Quote: Ed Dickerson said: And we wonder why the young leave our church in droves! Because of people like yourself.
Robert Posted March 25, 2006 Author Posted March 25, 2006 Quote: Ed Dickerson said: "Love your neighbor as you love yourself." What does "as" mean, Robert? It means that YOU, according to the law, must love your neighbor the same way you love yourself. It doesn't command self-love. The fact is you do not fully love your neighbor [which includes your enemies] as you naturally love yourself. You go to great lengths to make sure you have nice things, huh Ed? Who are you kidding? Rob
David Koot Posted March 25, 2006 Posted March 25, 2006 Quote: Robert said: The fact is you do not fully love your neighbor . . . as you naturally love yourself. You go to great lengths to make sure you have nice things . . . I'm wondering, Robert, if there is something going on behind this emphasis on people giving their things to someone else? Have you observed people who are Christians, whom you do not feel have shared with others, as they should?
Robert Posted March 25, 2006 Author Posted March 25, 2006 Quote: David Koot said: Quote: Robert said: The fact is you do not fully love your neighbor . . . as you naturally love yourself. You go to great lengths to make sure you have nice things . . . I'm wondering, Robert, if there is something going on behind this emphasis on people giving their things to someone else? Have you observed people who are Christians, whom you do not feel have shared with others, as they should? My problem is with people who claim they are law-keepers. They ain't measuring up, friend. They need glasses. Read this: God's love vs. human love
there buster Posted March 25, 2006 Posted March 25, 2006 I can tell this is hard for you. Please focus. What does the word "as" mean? Not the whole text, just that one word, Robert. “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell
there buster Posted March 25, 2006 Posted March 25, 2006 Quote: Because of people like yourself. I'll be sure and share this with my church this afternoon. Most of them are 22-29. They need a good laugh. And a reminder why they don't attend a church where your kind of "love" is inflicted. “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell
Ted Oplinger Posted March 26, 2006 Posted March 26, 2006 Tagging in... Robert, you stated... Quote: It means that YOU, according to the law, must love your neighbor the same way you love yourself. It doesn't command self-love. The fact is you do not fully love your neighbor [which includes your enemies] as you naturally love yourself. You go to great lengths to make sure you have nice things, huh Ed? Who are you kidding? Hmmmm...I would agree with that rationale IF God were commanding us to enlist our sinful flesh into the fray and work our way to earn heaven. However, God's Word doesn't tell us to do this. It appears the key word in your point is "naturally"...just what does the Word tells us we are to do with the "natural" man? Are we to obey the "natural", or obey the Gospel of the new creation within? If we try to obey the Gospel through the natural flesh, of course it seem impossible to do many of the things. It is just as impossible to demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit by way of the natural flesh as it is to obey the Law by the flesh. Agape love - the kind referenced here in "loving" our fellow human beings - will flow naturally from the new Creation within - the washed and regenerated inner man, because that what it does by it's own nature...in spite of the nature of the flesh the new heart inhabits. Does this mean the Christian has an easy time displaying this love 24/7? As it is written in Romans 7, no. The love that flows from God very often gets blocked by the earthiness of our "vessels of clay" - our flesh. Yet this is where grace enters: we realize our need, and we go to the throne of grace for help against the flesh. Our flesh is a beaten foe, vanquished at the Cross, yet it is very much "alive" for us to deal with on a daily basis. So...which do you believe is true for you? Your flesh, telling you it's impossible to agapao? Or God, who says agapao flows from His indwelling presence in the new Creation of the innner man, and that depending upon His Word for this is the overcoming victory by faith which overcomes the world? A second point, I think, is being referenced by Ed...It is impossible to love others without being able to love one's own self as something created and nurtured by God into life. The phrase, "Love is not self-seeking", should not be turned into a monastic vow of poverty and homelessness. The Holy Word has examples of many righteous and faithful people who not only had useful work and homes, but were very rich as well. Some lived in palaces. Some, like Paul, were what we call today "self-employed" in the trades. Paul is a unique case. As a travelling tent-maker by trade and a self-supporting ministry, Paul had no permanent residence to call "home", yet his own testimony precludes his living in other's homes as a custom of his ministry - else some could say Paul mooched off of them by ministering out of their homes. Paul plainly told such accusers they had nothing on him by which to make this claim...even though he had the right and authority to command it. Yet, exercising this right would have been an act of "self-seeking" that would interfere with the Gospel - so Paul did the selfless thing - got busy in a good ol' capitalistic business, and God blessed that business to provide everything Paul's ministry needed. I would then conclude that Paul was much like Abraham - living out of his own tent, plying his trade, and spreading the Gospel. He knew riches, and he knew poverty - that's the up and down of being self-employed. That he set up many, many home churches tells me he was not an advocate of recommending to all Christians to sell everything and give all to the poor as a requirement to make certain they were demonstrating love which is not self-seeking. Loving our neighbor as we love ourselves. Key word "as". Allow me to throw another curve here...what is "self-seeking"? Frame of reference for my question: Using Christ's homelessness and poverty as a means to an end of justifying ourselves to be more like the loving Jesus... Food for thought... Regards all, Ted "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
Robert Posted March 26, 2006 Author Posted March 26, 2006 When Jesus says, "Love your neighbor as yourself," the word "as" is very radical: "Love your neighbor as yourself." That's a BIG word: "As!" It means: If you are energetic in pursing your own happiness, be energetic in pursuing the happiness of your neighbor. We fear that if we follow Jesus in this, and really devote ourselves to pursuing the happiness of others, then our own desire for happiness will always be preempted. The neighbor's claim on my time and energy and creativity will always take priority. So the command to love my neighbor as I love myself really feels like a threat to my own self-love. Therefore something must give and in this world what gives is living for our neighbors as we do ourselves. The Apostle Paul is correct: All have sinned AND FALL SHORT of the glory of God. Rob
Robert Posted March 26, 2006 Author Posted March 26, 2006 Quote: Ted_Oplinger said: The phrase, "Love is not self-seeking", should not be turned into a monastic vow of poverty and homelessness. The Holy Word has examples of many righteous and faithful people who not only had useful work and homes, but were very rich as well. We are accounted righteous by faith! We are not righteous in reality. According to "The Holy Word" there is none righteous, no not even one [see Matt 19:17/Roman 3:10]. If you are not "self-seeking", in this world under Lucifer, the natural evolution of living such a life would bring you to poverty and homelessness. That's why Jesus was without and you are not. Jesus was selfless and you are selfish. Rob
Robert Posted March 26, 2006 Author Posted March 26, 2006 Quote: Ted_Oplinger said: is impossible to love others without being able to love one's own self Funny, Christ wasn't preoccupied with "loving self" and yet He loved others...especially His enemies! Let's look at this: Matt 16:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me [follow Christ], let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. Luke 14:27 Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple....33 “So therefore, no one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions. You see if YOU really loved your neighbor as you naturally love yourself day in and day out, your neighbor would have your wealth! If we lived in a world without the principle of "self" then your neighbor would reciprocate that action. That's how heaven will function. Rob
there buster Posted March 26, 2006 Posted March 26, 2006 Quote: It means: If you are energetic in pursing your own happiness, be energetic in pursuing the happiness of your neighbor. We call an "if...then..." statement a hypothesis. A hypothesis cannot be a definition. Please focus on the one point. Merriam-Webster online dictionary defines the word "as" 1 : to the same degree or amount Do you contest that definition? If so, on what basis (other than your own rambling editorializing)? Quote: The Apostle Paul is correct: True. As are the following: 2+2=4 The capital of Honduras is Tegucigalpa. A pineapple is neither a pine, nor an apple. facetious is the shortest English word containing all the vowels in order. All of those are true, but irrelevant. Please focus on one point at a time. “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell
Robert Posted March 26, 2006 Author Posted March 26, 2006 Matt 26:39 Going a little farther, he [Jesus] fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.” Why would Jesus' human desires be in opposition to His Father's will? Because it was our human "self-love" that tempted Him to say "no" to saving the fallen mankind. You see Christ could not take our curse [the 2nd death] while maintaining this concept of self-love. No, He had to make a choice between loving Himself and refusing an unjust death and loving us. He couldn't do both - He couldn't love Himself and us simultaneously. Therefore the command to love our neighbor as we love ourselves means we must take this U-turn agape and love others instead of ourselves. That is called "selflessness" - not self-hate.
Robert Posted March 26, 2006 Author Posted March 26, 2006 Quote: Ed Dickerson said: Merriam-Webster online dictionary defines the word "as" 1 : to the same degree or amount Ed...move out and build a nice home, equivalent to the home you have now, right next to a family living in a small single-wide trailer. Now focus your energy in loving them the same as you love yourself. After some time shouldn't their status of living go up if you love them with the same enthusiasm as you love yourself? Rob
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