Robert Posted March 26, 2006 Author Posted March 26, 2006 Quote: Gerry Cabalo said: ...You have been built up a theological house of cards on one verse. No...I have used many verses to prove my position! At least Ellen White had eyes to see when she wrote: To one who, during the Saviour's ministry, offered to follow him…, Jesus said, "The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." Those who follow him must share his poverty. "If any man will come after me," he declares, "let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." "So shall ye be my disciples." RH 7-4-12
there buster Posted March 26, 2006 Posted March 26, 2006 Quote: Yes, Edward? My name is not Edward. And you still haven't answered my question. “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell
there buster Posted March 26, 2006 Posted March 26, 2006 Quote: If you admit that you are persistently falling short of God's agape love...if you admit that all you and I do, in and of ourselves, constitutes self-seeking and that our only hope is what Christ did 2000 years ago, I will take a vacation from this forum. The first point is irrelevant to our discussion. As far as taking a vacation, you haven't yet actually arrived here. We're still waiting for you to respond and not just filibuster. “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell
there buster Posted March 26, 2006 Posted March 26, 2006 Quote: Both the Bible and EGW are clear on this subject. You chose to ignore the facts. Perhaps they are. Your posts are not. And not responsive. You still haven't answered the question about the word "as" Quote: I can't help you see...only God can Quite so. 'If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit.” Matt.15:14 “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell
Robert Posted March 26, 2006 Author Posted March 26, 2006 Quote: Gerry Cabalo said: Like I said before, you want to fail everyone so that you can justify your bankupt notion of no obedience required. If you make one law a requirement for heaven, you must obey all the law! Who said that? Paul....Find it! Now read this: "In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure but all, from pure, genuine love, will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132] Our little world is the lesson book of the universe. God's wonderful purpose of grace, the mystery of redeeming love, is the theme into which "angels desire to look", and it will be their study throughout endless ages. Both the redeemed and the unfallen beings will find in the cross of Christ their science and their song. It will be seen that the glory shining in the face of Jesus is the glory of self-sacrificing love. In the light from Calvary it will be seen that the law of self-renouncing love is the law of life for earth and heaven; that the love which "seeketh not her own" has its source in the heart of God. . . .[AG 45] Ellen White correctly ties in 1 Cor 13:5 with “self-renouncing love”. In heaven none will think of self…we will live solely for others. This is not true here…hence you and I are “falling short” and thus “by the works of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight.” Rob
there buster Posted March 26, 2006 Posted March 26, 2006 Quote: Robert said: Both are extremely condescending Quote: Robert said: I guess you are in corner. I feel for you…. Quote: Robert said: I can't help you see...only God can. Quote: Robert said: Open your eyes man, Quote: Robert said: I am really amazed with stupidity and self-righteousness that abounds here. The reason you fight this is because you don't want to be exposed as sinners falling short of God's selfless love. You are, as I have always stated, self-righteous legalists! Quote: Robert said: Yeah...it makes you a sinner falling short of God's love! Deal with it or get more self-righteous. Quote: Robert said: I will pray for your self-righteous attitude..... Quote: Robert said: You go to great lengths to make sure you have nice things, huh Ed? Who are you kidding? Quote: David Koot said:I think I am seeing a picture... Robert said: I doubt it.... And I only went back half way. Given the record, it's unseemly for you to lecture us on being like Christ. “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell
Robert Posted March 26, 2006 Author Posted March 26, 2006 Quote: Ed Dickerson said: Quote: When that happens I am sure our future leaders will denounce this "sharing" as communistic in nature, but the real issue is that exposes Capitalism for what it is: Greed and self-seeking Since Cuba and North Korea are the only communist countries remaining, they must be heavenly. Your statement is just plain ignorant! Karl Marx [the founder of Communism as we know it today] believed that man was simply moving matter and that, basically, man was good. He said: “Man is good. The reason why he is selfish is because of his environment, i.e., capitalism.” So his gospel was: “Change the environment, the political and economical environment, and you will redeem man.” Karl was wrong....Man is not basically good...neither is he selfish because of his environment. He is selfish by nature!!! Hence communism will never work. Besides communism is by compulsion - i.e., at the point of a gun! God's love - His law - is not by compulsion, unless you are living under the old covenant. Only then does the law demand selfless living in return for life or death in return for self-seeking! Under grace Jesus Christ has answered the law. He lived a perfectly selfless life and those who receive Him by faith are accounted selfless in Himself. Capitalism is at least honest....It's all about # 1...me, me, me....Communism is nothing but a Godless system of legalism. Rob
there buster Posted March 26, 2006 Posted March 26, 2006 Quote: Your statement is just plain ignorant! Thanks. Another one. Oh, and I'm not the one advocating communism. You are. “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell
Robert Posted March 26, 2006 Author Posted March 26, 2006 Quote: Ed Dickerson said: Never said I wasn't...I just said you and Gerry were also! Defending your righteousness again? Rob
David Koot Posted March 26, 2006 Posted March 26, 2006 Quote: Robert said: Sounds like an excuse for selfishness? I guess Christ wasn't "a good steward"? Huh? Being a good steward of the talents with which God has blessed us, is strongly urged by Jesus, as well as other Bible writers. To impute 'selfishness' to the desire to be a good steward, is a very negative judgment--which Jesus expressly commanded people NOT to make. The motivation doesn't HAVE to be selfish. The Bible, as well as the SOP, both direct us not to ASSUME that it is selfish. Quote: Let's see...hmmm, I give so that I can get! Funny, that smacks with selfishness....This is why so many in the church give....The more I give, the more I get! Selfishness abounds! What an awful statement! You couldn't be more mistaken, Robert. Altruism does exist. There really are people who give for the sake of helping others. These negative judgments you are making about people, are directly contrary to the Word of God, and to the spirit of Jesus. They do not give evidence of the work of the Holy Spirit in the life. The love which Jesus imparts, assumes the best about other Christians, and puts the best possible interpretation upon their words and actions. David Koot
there buster Posted March 26, 2006 Posted March 26, 2006 Quote: Defending your righteousness again? Just keeps piling up. “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell
Robert Posted March 26, 2006 Author Posted March 26, 2006 Quote: David Koot said: They do not give evidence of the work of the Holy Spirit in the life. Jesus, as man, and Paul both were very bluntant when it came to the self-righteous: Matt 23:15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are....27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness. Phil 3:1 Watch out for those dogs, those men who do evil, those mutilators of the flesh. 3 For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh.... Gal 5:10 The one who is throwing you into confusion will pay the penalty, whoever he may be. 11 Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision [see verse 1-4], why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators [Judaizers], I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
Robert Posted March 26, 2006 Author Posted March 26, 2006 Quote: Ed Dickerson said: Quote: Defending your righteousness again? Just keeps piling up. Doesn't matter...you lost the battle over what constitutes self-seeking so now you are tying to make the messenger look bad. Why not stay to the subject?
Robert Posted March 26, 2006 Author Posted March 26, 2006 Quote: Ed Dickerson said: Quote: Your statement is just plain ignorant! Oh, and I'm not the one advocating communism. You are. A glimpse of heaven: Acts 4:32 Now the company of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things which he possessed was his own, but they had everything in common. 33 And with great power the apostles gave their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all. 34 There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of what was sold 35 and laid it at the apostles’ feet; and distribution was made to each as any had need. Heaven: "In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure but all, from pure, genuine love, will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132]
there buster Posted March 26, 2006 Posted March 26, 2006 Quote: you are tying to make the messenger look bad No need. You've taken care of that. “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted March 26, 2006 Moderators Posted March 26, 2006 I closing this thread for a short period to give people a time to cool-it. I will open it again. But when I do, I will be prepared to given individuals, as I see fit, a Time-Out during which they will not be allowed to post here. Note: I am just tagging on to the last post. Gregory
Robert Posted March 28, 2006 Author Posted March 28, 2006 I believe EGW's statement pretty much backs up my position on "self-seeking" along with other Bible verses I have used. "In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure but all, from pure, genuine love, will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132]
David Koot Posted March 31, 2006 Posted March 31, 2006 I think this thread is dead, actually. Robert, in regard to your latest post, one thing is clear: you believe that the references which you quoted, back up your position. At this point, I see no point in responding to that, other than to say that whoever might choose to review the thread would be able to reach his or her own decision. David Koot
Robert Posted March 31, 2006 Author Posted March 31, 2006 Quote: David Koot said: ...one thing is clear: you believe that the references, which you quoted, back up your position. Yes....So when the Bible says, "Love your neighbor as yourself" it isn't demanding both agape love (a selfless love) and a selfish love (self-love). This would contradict the intent of Christ's words. Also, it is very clear from the pen of Ellen White how we will love in heaven. Again, "In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure but all, from pure, genuine love, will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132] Not only will we not live for self, we will not even "think of self". Our love will be ONLY outward - "we will seek the happiness of...beings around us." Now, IF you and I lived out this type of love (as did Christ) you and I would be destitute. That's why she states, Jesus said, "The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." Those who follow him must share his poverty. "If any man will come after me," he declares, "let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." RH 7-4-12 Denying self and loving self are mutually exclusive. If we live only for others, in this world under Satan's grip, we will be without.
Robert Posted April 1, 2006 Author Posted April 1, 2006 Quote: Robert said: "In heaven none will think of self , [instead they] will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132] This goes hand 'n hand with: “…There will be no rivalry, no self-seeking, no desire for the highest place. You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth.” [DA 439] Heaven's love utterly exposes the best of human love...nay, even the best of Christian love...as "falling short" of God's goodness.
Robert Posted April 1, 2006 Author Posted April 1, 2006 -PC- RH -PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald -DT- 01-31-07 -AT- Self-Denial--Self-Sacrifice -PR- 05 Christ has left us a wonderful example of self-sacrifice. He pleased not himself, but spent his life in the service of others.
Robert Posted April 1, 2006 Author Posted April 1, 2006 -BC- CT -TI- Counsels to Parents, Teachers, and Students -CN- 4 -CT- Unselfish Service the Law of Heaven -PR- 01 -PG- 34 His [Christ's] life rebukes all self-seeking. As He went about doing good He made plain the character of God's lawn and the nature of His service.
Robert Posted April 1, 2006 Author Posted April 1, 2006 Quote: Robert said: He made plain the character of God's lawn
Robert Posted April 15, 2006 Author Posted April 15, 2006 Quote: Robert said: "In heaven none will think of self , nor seek their own pleasure but all , from pure, genuine love, will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132] "Under God, Adam was to stand at the head of the earthly family, to maintain the principles of the heavenly family. This would have brought peace and happiness. But the law that none "liveth to himself" (Romans 14:7), Satan was determined to oppose. He desired to live for self. He sought to make himself a center of influence. It was this that had incited rebellion in heaven, and it was man's acceptance of this principle that brought sin on earth." CT 33
Robert Posted April 18, 2006 Author Posted April 18, 2006 EGW: "Man's judgment is partial, imperfect; but God estimates all things as they really are." What she means is that men look at the outward acts, but God looks at our desires and motives. "The drunkard is despised, and is told that his sin will exclude him from heaven...." Please note that the drunkard outwardly exhibits his debilitating vice. "while pride, selfishness, and covetousness too often go unrebuked. But these are sins that are especially offensive to God..." Why? for they are contrary to the benevolence of His character, to that [:"red"]unselfish[/] love which is the very atmosphere of the unfallen universe.
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