The Future of TOP

[Gregory Matthews]

In recent times, a discussion has been going on as to the future of The One Project (TOP).  One issue that has been discussed has been whether or not TOP should become an independent ministry, such as is 3-angels broadcasting.

Recently I was one of about 70 people who came together to discuss the future of TOP.  This group included SDA denominational leaders from several levels of organizational structure, from across the NAD and other people.

There was general agreement that TOP should not go independent.  I expect that this is the direction that TOP will continue to maintain.

In addition, there was a strong belief that denominational leaders in NAD should to develop an organizational relationship with TOP that strengthened its relationship to the denomination to include funding and accountability of each to the other.   The leadership of TOP welcomed this expression of support.

It should be noted that my announcement of this is a personal announcement and is not a public announcement by TOP.  My purpose is to is to assure you that the future of TOP looks good.  E. G.  I am not speaking for TOP

I have not said anything about the possible structure of the future organizational relationship between the denomination and TOP as such would be speculative.  I ask that people not speculate as to that structure.

In addition I have not identified those denominational leaders who were present as I consider this meeting to have been strictly informal and it did not bind any part of the organizational structure to anything.

The bottom line is that I am very pleased with the expression of good will and support for TOP that I  experienced at that meeting. 

 

 

   

 

[Green Cochoa]

Will TOP become the next "abomination" that every true-hearted Adventist must sigh and cry over?  We already have plenty of others, to include a departure from correct Biblical interpretations over women's ordination, an apostate confidence in an Adventist creed, the spiritual formations movement, and now even an assault on our value system from the homosexual movement.  The shaking is hard upon us.  If we are not sighing and crying over the abominations in the church, we should be praying for heavenly eyesalve that we might be cured of our blindness.

[JoeMo]

1 hour ago, Gregory Matthews said:

There was general agreement that TOP should not go independent.  I expect that this is the direction that TOP will continue to maintain.

Great news, Gregory!  I welcome an inclusive ministry that puts Jesus first.  I will continue to pray for the movement.

47 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

Will TOP become the next "abomination" that every true-hearted Adventist must sigh and cry over?

Why sigh and cry about a ministry who wants to make their relationship with Jesus the highest priority in their lives; and wants to bring that mind set to those inside and outside the denomination?  What's more important - your relationship with God or your relationship with the man-made construct of a denomination?  What will save more people - bringing them into a personal relationship with Jesus or servitude to a denomination.  If you believe in the influence of God's Spirit, don't you believe that the Spirit can lead people to the church once they have established a sound relationship with Jesus? 

Be careful what you condemn.  When the Pharisees accused Juesus of casting out demons in the name of the devil, Jesus responded:

"Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.  And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." (Matt. 12:30-32)

Gamaliel, the teacher of Paul the Apostle said:

"Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail.  But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.” (Acts 5:38-39).

 Although I am no Jewish or Christian scholar, I think this sound biblical advice applies to all of us who think we are right and others are wrong.  Let God sort it out.  Take care of the details of your own salvation; the rest of us will take care of ours.  Who are you to judge what is or isn't an "abomination?

 

[Green Cochoa]

Joe,

The Bible asks the probing question "Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?" (James 3:11) 

Jesus has told us that "by their fruits ye shall know them." 

I have seen quite enough of The One Project to know it.  It mixes truth with error, making it more dangerous by far than if it were all error.

But I have faith that God will see His church through to the end, and return for a virtuous bride, undefiled and unspotted by the world.  Nevertheless, these abominations in the church will cost the souls of many, and for that I sigh and cry.

[Gregory Matthews]

This post is not directed to the posts made by Green.  Rather I will respond to some common criticisms that have been made about The One Project (TOP).

1)  Criticism of the music:  Yes, TOP dos have drums.  IF that is one's criticism, so be it.  As an actual fact, the music generally played at TOP Gatherings is composed by a dedicated SDA musician.  It reflects SDA doctrine and belief.  If you want to know more about it, see: 

http://chapelsandcathedrals.info/

That website will reflect music played at the February Gathering in San Diego.

2) Criticism that the several TOP founders obtained their degrees at a Quaker University:  This allegation is simply false and reflects poor scholarship on the part of those who allege it.

3) Criticism that TOP Does not teach fundamentals of the SDA Faith:  TOP Gatherings generally are held over one and two day periods of time.  TOP teaches that the basic core of SDA life and belief is centered on Christ.  It can not be expected to teach in that short period of time every nuance of SDA belief.  It is not designed to do so.   Each Gathering has a Biblically based focus. 

However, the recent Gathering in San Diego (February 24 -28, 2017) was totally focused on finding Christ as a center for the message of the Biblical book of Revelation.  This theme began with Revelation 1:1 (Revelation of Jesus Christ)  and included finding Christ in the 3-angels messages (Revelation 14: 6-11).  

NOTE:  I am bothered by the fact that much of the criticism of TOP comes from people who have never had any contact with the founders of TOP.  Yes, some have, but many have not.  For many the criticism is based upon 2nd and 3rd hand mere gossip.  I had a recent conversation with one of the founders, Sam Leonor.  He told me that he will be willing to discuss TOP criticism with any one--by telephone, by e-mail, in person, as is mutually agreed.  So, I asked him if I could post his telephone number on this website.  He agreed.  So, here it is:  951-538-4016

If you have some concerns or other observations that you would like to make directly to a founder of TOP, give him a  telephone call and you and he can address the method by which you can best talk.

 

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Green posted in the quote below:

1)  I note that you (Green) did not say that you obtained you knowledge from personal observation.  I would like to know the source of your knowledge.  IS it based largely upon 2nd and 3rd hand sources?  Have you personally contacted any of the founders?  Have your ever read the book they published, which tells about its founding, goals and ministry?

2) Have you ever spoken personally to a founder about your concerns?

3) Are you willing to contact SAM Leonor and dialogue with him?  I have posted above a contact number for you to do so.

NOTE:  Here is a work e-mail address for Sam Leonor:  sleonor@lasierra.edu

Quote

I have seen quite enough of The One Project to know . . .

[Gregory Matthews]

Earlier Green posted, related to the One Project, see below:

Scripture teaches accountability.   It does not teach that either God's messengers or the ":watchmen on the wall" should hide their identity.

I have a problem with some one who infers that TOP is an abomination that will cost the souls of many and refuses to take responsibility and accountability for such by hiding his name under a penname.    I do not think that this is what God would want.  I do believe that if God want such a message proclaimed about TOP God would be able to protect the messenger who faithfully proclaimed what God wanted proclaimed.

Such suggests to me a lack of trust in God and that the messenger is not proclaiming what God would want said.

Nevertheless, these abominations in the church will cost the souls of many, and for that I sigh and cry. [/quote}

 

 

[JoeMo]

2 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

I have seen quite enough of The One Project to know it.  It mixes truth with error, making it more dangerous by far than if it were all error.

How do you know?  Have you ever been to a TOP conference?  I have.  It was one of the best SDA gatherings I have ever attended.  I thought it was quite Adventist.  So did the representatives from the Biblical Research Institute, Walla  Walla, Loma Linda, and La Sieera; as well as several local area pastors.  If you have problems with TOP, don't support it!  It's the same as with porn - if you have a problem with it or you think it's "bad", don't watch it (not meant as a comparison of porn and TOP).

 

1 hour ago, Gregory Matthews said:

I am bothered by the fact that much of the criticism of TOP comes from people who have never had any contact with the founders of TOP.  Yes, some have, but many have not.  For many the criticism is based upon 2nd and 3rd hand mere gossip.

Amen Gregory!  How many criticisms of allegedly "new theology" movements in the church come from people who have only heard from "them" (i.e., "they" said that TOP was ...).

[Gregory Matthews]

At the February Gathering in San Diego, the following book was given away free to those who attended: 

Steve, Case. Finding Jesus In Revelation: A Series of Bible Studies for Small Groups, Part 1 (7 sessions). 

Steve Case, who is not a founder of TOP, has a major ministry devoted to the Book of Revelaton and a Christ that is at the center.  As part of this ministry, he has written a number of books on this subject.  The book cited above is just one of several.

If you want to know more about Steve Case and his ministry see:

http://www.revelation101.com/

 

 

 

 

[Green Cochoa]

Pastor Steve Wohlberg, whom I know personally and with whom I have communicated regarding TOP, spoke against it as well as against the dangers of the so-called "emerging church" movement in a sermon at Southern Adventist University.  Pr. Wohlberg is the president and founder of White Horse Ministries, and has an extensive audience through both radio and television.  An interview with him regarding the Emerging Church movement, including The One Project, is available here.

Japhet de Oliveira, one of TOP's founders, lied concerning Pr. Wohlberg's supposed change of mind regarding TOP.  I communicated with him directly and learned the truth.  That conversation is documented in another forum for other members to read.

I have read some of what the TOP founders have written.  I would compare some of it to the Book of Mormon which I have also tried to read.  They both give me a headache.  The logic is somewhat unusual, almost diabolical.

I have watched some of the TOP founders' sermons online.  I was quite disappointed in their use of cynicism and sarcasm for a laugh, and the hints they would make that the church was in the wrong and needed to change, such as on the issue of women's ordination.

Gregory, I think you know why I must remain anonymous here, and your reference to my anonymity I take as a direct attack against me and my ministry.  Perhaps, because I have spoken against TOP, you will have me excommunicated from this community.  So be it.  I will not jeopardize my work by revealing my identity, and I would far rather have my account here deleted than to do so.  If circumstances were otherwise and my work were not in danger, I can assure you I have no shame in what I am saying and I would never require anonymity.  Forty-five minutes' drive from my home lies a church whose members are not permitted to meet on Sabbath--by the government.  Negotiations with government officials have failed to reopen it.  In the other direction, about half an hour distant, the director of a major ministry and arm of our church who I will not name here was deported for doing Bible studies in his home.  The one who replaced him is now also being forced to leave next month for political reasons.  I do not reside in a land friendly to Christians.  Pastors are sometimes jailed for distributing literature.  Bibles must be smuggled in.  God watches over this work, and I trust He will take care of it.  But in a land where internet usage is monitored, and from which I must use an encrypted tunnel to post this message safely, to demand that I be outed is simply unthinkable for a military chaplain who ought to know better.  Did you not know my situation?

If you want to know the truth about TOP, do some research into its background and the background of its founders.  I did.  I did not simply accept the reports I had heard without checking things out for myself.  Instead of looking to "the arm of flesh" we should be looking to Jesus and following Him.  And what did Jesus say? "If ye love me, keep my commandments."  Mrs. White warned us of those who would teach only about Jesus' love, and avoid instruction on His commandments.  I take her warning to heart.  There is certainly nothing wrong with teaching that God loves us.  But God is particular, and requires obedience.  The Third Angel's Message speaks directly to this, and that is the message we are to be sounding to the world at this time.  Unfortunately, that message is not TOP's priority.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Green:  I can respect your need for privacy.  I do not wish to have you outed.

However, I will say that as you have a need for privacy as to who you are, I believe that you should moderate some of what you say as I believe that there are some things that should be said by people who do not hide under a cloak of privacy and thereby escape accountability.  The one post of yours that I cited is an example of this. 

A second example of this is in your post above.  A person may be wrong and not be a liar.  A liar is a person who is more than simply wrong.  A liar is a person who has intentionally attempted to deceive another.

Now you have posted above that Japhet lied.  You have done that absent any accountability due to your hiding under a cloak of privacy.  In my thinking, that is just wrong.  If you are not, regardless of the reason, willing to take responsibility for that accusation, then you should not have posted it.  When you make such statements, do not hide your identity, regardless of the reason.

No, Green, I do not intend  to recommend that you be banned from posting here.  Even when I disagree with you, much (not all, as you are not perfect) of the time you show careful scholarship and present well your thinking.  From that perspective, I do believe that you contribute to Club Adventist.

You also know that I have not demanded that you reveal who your actually are.

As to you seemingly thinking that I have the power in the forum to get people banned,  if you think that, I have to wonder if you have recently partaken of some item that has not been recommended by Ellen White.

 

 

[Green Cochoa]

Gregory,

Feel free to edit my posts, remove them, or ban me from this forum--knowing that God sees and will judge all that you do.  No Christian should seek to muzzle the free expression of another who speaks convicted of conscience on a matter.  I cannot in good conscience support TOP, and the speciousness of error entering the church through channels like this is of such a nature as makes me willing to stand up and be counted against it, regardless the stakes.  If you should out me here, and my work be jeopardized, you will stand one day at the bar of judgment with God for it--but I will not be badgered into silence in speaking for the right when it is my duty to do so.

If you would like facts to support what I have said, I have them.  My name is actually irrelevant, and knowing it should be immaterial to those facts.  Others post here who have not identified themselves, and to single me out seems rather arbitrary.  Having seen others who were removed from this forum for what seemed of no greater offense than what I have said, I know, and have always known, that the truths I present may not be welcomed here and that my posting privileges might at any time be revoked.  So be it.  To my perception, your communications with the administrators here have significant weight, and while you may claim you do not have the power to ban me (I believe you speak truly in that regard), you do have the power of your influence toward that end.  Thus, I know I am at your mercy.  But I do not fear you.  I fear only that I might dishonor God in either remaining silent when I should speak, or in speaking in such a way as would bring the truth into disrepute.

None of us should rest easy knowing that errors are creeping into our church.  We know, however, that they will.  It is prophesied.  I appreciate what CherylG just posted a bit ago regarding the Omega.  Everyone should read it and ponder.  Just because many will be deceived does not mean it must be us.  Each of us has the privilege of studying these things carefully for ourselves, and putting our sights fast on Jesus, the Author and the Finisher of our faith.

[CoAspen]

How do we get to know God in a personal way, through others, hearsay, etc, etc? No, not if a person really wants to know what God is all about, it takes a personal relationship. Perhaps that is also the path in learning what others, such as the leaders of TOP, are really all about. From a distance or up close and personal? How do we best get to know another person?

[Green Cochoa]

7 minutes ago, CoAspen said:

How do we get to know God in a personal way, through others, hearsay, etc, etc? No, not if a person really wants to know what God is all about, it takes a personal relationship. Perhaps that is also the path in learning what others, such as the leaders of TOP, are really all about. From a distance or up close and personal? How do we best get to know another person?

Should it be our goal to get to know the TOP leaders, or to get to know God?  Jesus said, ". . . Take heed that no man deceive you.  For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." (Matthew 24:4-5)

Even if they said they were Christ Himself, we are not to be deceived.  If they come saying they have Christ, we should be equally guarded.  What does the Bible say?  "By their fruits ye shall know them."  The Bible does NOT say, "By a personal relationship with them shall ye know them."  It is our duty, in following Jesus' words, to look for their fruits.  That is how we are to know them.

[Gregory Matthews]

Green said in the post below:

The issue that I raised with you, Green is much more than what you believe about TOP.  It involves the nature of what you have said while writing under a pen name and by doing so refusing to be accountable.  I do not find anywhere in either the Bible or in Ellen White where it is recommended that God's message of reproof be presented under a pen name by someone who refuses to be accountable.

Your insistence that you should be allowed to do so is evidence to  me that in respect to the messages to which I have called you to account did  not come from God.  Rather it appears to me that they came from another source.

NOTE:  I am  not suggesting a source, so do not twist my comment into saying that I have identified a source.

I do not ask that you support TOP. 

No human Christian, neither your nor I, is perfect and without error.  It is quite appropriate for a Christian to challenge another Christian when they are in error.  You are in error when you say that Japhet intentionally attempted to deceive (that is in the defination of one who lies).  In doing so you judge motive.  God has not given you that power.

As to standing before the judgment bar of God, as you put it, so also might I be called to do if I fail to challenge you for what I believe in good conscience to be your departure from what I believe to be accepted Christian standards.  

No Christian should seek to muzzle the free expression of another who speaks convicted of conscience on a matter.  I cannot in good conscience support TOP, and the speciousness of error entering the church through channels like this is of such a nature as makes me willing to stand up and be counted against it, regardless the stakes.  If you should out me here, and my work be jeopardized, you will stand one day at the bar of judgment with God for it--but I will not be badgered into silence in speaking for the right when it is my duty to do so.

[Gregory Matthews]

The Wanderer said in the quote below:

Green did not say this in a private conversation to Japhet.  Green did not say this in a private conversation to me.  Green stated that Japhet had lied in a very public post.  By making this a public statement, this requires a public response. 

If Green had made a private statement to me, there would be no reason for me to make a public response of the nature that I have made here.   
 

Would you like it if someone like Stan talked to you like this publically as you are doing with Green? I think your suggestions here about him are very unfair.

[Gregory Matthews]

In an earlier post The Wanderer cited a statement of mine to the effect that a post of mine had suggested a lack of trust in  God, and then responded in the quote below:

If you had said that I have no way of knowing whether or not Green trusts God, you would be correct.  But, I did not say such.   What I said was that Green's post suggest such.  There is a difference and that difference is important.  People, to include me, may make statements that do not clearly present what the author intended to present.  I have certainly had people bring such statements that I made to my attention.

To be clear:   I am not suggesting that Green lacks trust in God, although I suspect that there are times when all of us, to include me do fail to fully trust God.  But, I stand by my comment that Green's statement suggested a lack of trust in God.

 

I am sorry sir, but you have no way of knowing this about any forum member.

[B/W Photodude]

13 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

None of us should rest easy knowing that errors are creeping into our church.  We know, however, that they will.  It is prophesied.  I appreciate what CherylG just posted a bit ago regarding the Omega.  Everyone should read it and ponder.  Just because many will be deceived does not mean it must be us.  Each of us has the privilege of studying these things carefully for ourselves, and putting our sights fast on Jesus, the Author and the Finisher of our faith.

 

Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do
wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall
understand. Daniel 12:10

[CoAspen]

13 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

Should it be our goal to get to know the TOP leaders, or to get to know God?  Jesus said, ". . . Take heed that no man deceive you.  For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." (Matthew 24:4-5)

Even if they said they were Christ Himself, we are not to be deceived.  If they come saying they have Christ, we should be equally guarded.  What does the Bible say?  "By their fruits ye shall know them."  The Bible does NOT say, "By a personal relationship with them shall ye know them."  It is our duty, in following Jesus' words, to look for their fruits.  That is how we are to know them.

I believe you purposely fail to understand what I posted and then fail to give the context when you respond. I do believe you understand that I was suggesting you don't know a person by  listening to others and then making a judgement. It has been asked if you have had a personal contact with any of the leaders of TOP and thus far the answer is, no! Yet you continue to judge their methods, theology and beliefs based on hearsay. That method is not how we are to draw conclusions in any setting, personal or spiritual. I asked also how we learn and know God, yet you avoided that also with some comment about 'Christ impersonation', which is not the subject. 

[JoeMo]

15 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

Even if they said they were Christ Himself, we are not to be deceived.  If they come saying they have Christ, we should be equally guarded.  What does the Bible say?  "By their fruits ye shall know them."  The Bible does NOT say, "By a personal relationship with them shall ye know them."  It is our duty, in following Jesus' words, to look for their fruits.  That is how we are to know them.

So who is deceived - you or me?

"For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect." (Matt. 24:24 and Mark 13:22)

I can easily infer from this that it will not be possible to deceive the elect.

[Green Cochoa]

7 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

So who is deceived - you or me?

Whoever among us appears the most confident is the most likely candidate to have been deceived.  If we depend on Jesus, and look to Him for our source of wisdom and strength, and trust His messengers, and follow them, and do not trust our own wisdom, we are safe.  I cannot depend on my own knowledge; in these last days, the deceptions will so closely parallel the track of truth as to make it nearly impossible to discern between them.

Once God has helped us to see, however, that distinction, we are not to attend the meetings of those who would lead us into deception and error.

• I was shown the necessity of those who believe that we are having the last message of mercy, being separate from those who are daily imbibing new errors. I saw that neither young nor old should attend their meetings; for it is wrong to thus encourage them while they teach error that is a deadly poison to the soul and teach for doctrines the commandments of men. The influence of such gatherings is not good. If God has delivered us from such darkness and error, we should stand fast in the liberty wherewith He has set us free and rejoice in the truth. God is displeased with us when we go to listen to error, without being obliged to go; for unless He sends us to those meetings where error is forced home to the people by the power of the will, He will not keep us. The angels cease their watchful care over us, and we are left to the buffetings of the enemy, to be darkened and weakened by him and the power of his evil angels; and the light around us becomes contaminated with the darkness. {EW 124.3}
• . . . The track of truth lies close beside the track of error, and both tracks may seem to be one to minds which are not worked by the Holy Spirit, and which, therefore, are not quick to discern the difference between truth and error.  {1SM 202.2}

From the above, two salient points emerge: 1) Only the Holy Spirit can help us discern between truth and error; and 2) God will not protect us if we choose to go where we know error is being promoted, unless He has sent us.

God has already helped me to see that TOP is promoting error.  It would be a sin, therefore, for me to attend their meetings unless I knew God was sending me to them.

[JoeMo]

1 hour ago, Green Cochoa said:

God has already helped me to see that TOP is promoting error.

I can't judge what you "see or don't "see". That being said, you are correct - you would be "sinning" if you participated in something that the Lord has shown you to be wrong.  Personally, I like to see things first hand before I pass judgement on them rather than pass judgement based on second-hand info.  I have experienced TOP first-hand; and I saw no preaching of "new light", nor did I see any negativity (aka judgement) of representatives other denominations who had the open-mindedness to attend.  I myself sometimes attend Messianic Jewish services just for variety.  I even go to Catholic mass sometimes when I am with family (they are all Catholic).  I am also open to the possibility (albeit EXTREMELY thin ) that on a rare occasion I might be wrong; so I try to be open-minded.  That's how I converted from Catholicism to Adventism.

I reserve the right to be wrong and to change my mind about things when presented with sufficient Biblical (not SoP) evidence.

1 hour ago, Green Cochoa said:

{EW 124.3} ... {1SM 202.2}

Quoting SoP to me is almost meaningless.  While EGW was a very inspiring (and inspired) author, for me her writings carry no more authority (or infallibility) than those of people like Billy Graham, Oswald Chambers, or Joel Richardson.

[Gregory Matthews]

Wanderer:

Green and I have had private conversations (e-mail) that have remained private, as have a number of other people in this forum.

As to Green's personal view in regard to TOP, so far no one, as  far as I know, no one has threatened him n any way in regard to those views.  No one has challenged his posting them, as far as I know.  However, by posting them he is inviting others to challenge them as to accuracy, and that has been done.

However, Green has gone beyond the mere posting of his views in regard to TOP.  He stated that Japhet lied.  That, in accord with a basic definition of the word, is a statement that Japhet was not merely wrong, which he could have said, but that Japhet intended to deceive.   That is an attack on motive.  Further, as it was a public statement, it must be challenged publicly.   In such  cases private statements should not be made.

If Green believes that Japhet lied to him, he should go to Japhet and tell him so directly.  There is a clear Biblical procedure that should be followed in such cases.  According to that Biblical procedure, if Green has not gone to  Japhet and directly informed him that he believes Japhet lied to him Green should not  be posting such here.

I do not expect Green to be perfect, no human, to include you and I are perfect.  But, Green's personal attack on Japhet is so far from basic Christian standards that in this case, I am convinced that it was not God who approved of Green posting that about Japhet.

If you think that I am out of bounds on this issue, fine, you at entitled to think as you believe is best. 

Aa to The One Project:

There are issues on which honest and sincere people can disagree.  God has not brought His Church to the point where they agree on every issue and doctrine.  Frankly, I do not expect that in this life.

There are some who have personally experienced TOP in a number of ways, who have decided that they disagree with it.  So be it.  I do not have nearly as much of a problem with these people as I do with those who solely rely on 2nd and 3rd had information and/or make false statements about TOP. 

In another thread I mentioned Sam, a founder of TOP.  He told of his spending two years attempting to engage a major cretic in a conversation.  For two years, that critic refused to dialogue with him.  Finally Sam happened ot meet the critic in person.  At first the critic refused to discuss his issues in any way. Finally a conversation did begin.  It ended at the point when the critic explained that he was beginning to like Sam and therefore could not discuss  with him any more.  NOTE: Sam did not identify the critic in any manner.

 

 

 

 

 

[Green Cochoa]

30 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

I dont believe that TOP exhibits "an apostate confidence" in a Creed. Do you have an example of this? I see TOP as just another way of saying that they  are going to stay the same way and talk the same talk of years ago. It doesnt appear to be a change to me.

I didn't mean to imply that TOP has a creed.  Those things are all present in our church.  Our church now has a creed with its 27/28/29 or whatever.  Our church founders viewed the development of a creed to be an apostate step.

But the One Project does bring in a "new" thing, of a sort.  At least, I should hope we did not entertain spiritualism in our church before this.  Spiritualism itself is, of course, quite old.

[Gregory Matthews]

The Wanderer said in the quote below:

I do not have the slightest idea as to what you are talking about.

Why do "Leaders" keep coming out of the wood work to write out and to word the perfect plan? They appear to think if they just word it a little better this year' things will be "better" this year.