The Future of TOP

[Gregory Matthews]

Green said in the quote below:

It sounds to me like you are suggesting that TOP presents spiritualism?  If I am wrong, what are you saying?  If I am correct, what are you talking about?  What is your evidence?

In San Diego, the entire Gathering was focused on the Biblical book of Revelation and the picture of Christ that is revealed.

But the One Project does bring in a "new" thing, of a sort.  At least, I should hope we did not entertain spiritualism in our church before this.  Spiritualism itself is, of course, quite old.

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[Gregory Matthews]

Green said below:

1) Correct Biblical interpretation:  TOP Does not present any method of Biblical interpretation.  William Johnsson, former Review Editor, made a presentation at the San Diego Gathering>  Do you attribute such to him?

2)  Women's ordination:  This is not an issue that is advocated by TOP at their Gatherings.  Yes, they feature female speakers.  Do you object to that?

3) SDA Creed:  Not a part of TOP.  Personally I strongly object to the so-called 28 being used as such, as probably do many of TOP  people.

4) Spiritual formation:  Not a part of TOP.

5) Homosexual values:  Not a part of TOP.

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We already have plenty of others, to include a departure from correct Biblical interpretations over women's ordination, an apostate confidence in an Adventist creed, the spiritual formations movement, and now even an assault on our value system from the homosexual movement. 

[Gary K]

I have also looked into the teachings of some of the speakers TOP brings in.  Among them are people like Leonard Sweet who teach theosophy and emergent church lack of Biblical theology.  He says he has recanted his early writings on these subjects but that is not true.  I have read what he has had to say at Fox University about the emergent church teachings and he is anything but negative.  He praises it.  He is involved in the Doctor of Divinity program there and some of the doctoral theses he signs off on, and he is the mentor of the author's of those papers, are anything but Biblical.  I waded all the way through one of them and there were all of two or three verses of scripture in it.  Imagine that.  I doctoral thesis in a Divinity program and it mentions scripture hardly at all.  There were, however, entire pages dedicated to the thinking of men such as Hal Tussig who is the leader of a group who came up with a new version of the New Testament in which a political agenda was the main driver for what was put into the new version of the Bible they put out.  Hal Tussig is also a co-founder of the Jesus Seminar and associated with people such as John Dominic Crossan who says Jesus was an "exploited peasant with an attitude" and that is about the best thing he says about Jesus. The Jesus Seminar itself is absolutely blasphemous. 

So, when speakers of this sort are brought into TOP we can know it is not one of God's movements.  The Holy Spirit would have nothing to do with such men, and the writings of Ellen White warn us explicitly away from reading or even listening to theosophy because of the decptiveness of it.  It is one of the devil's final deceptions and it is so deadly that if it is accepted it will sweep Christianity away completely.  It is exceedingly dangerous.  It makes pantheism look like child's play, and pantheism is so dangerous that we are warned to stay as far away from it as possible. 

Theosophy is the Omega of deceptions.  That TOP would bring in speakers who teach and have taught such things says nothing good about it. 

[Green Cochoa]

9 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Green said in the quote below:

It sounds to me like you are suggesting that TOP presents spiritualism?  If I am wrong, what are you saying?  If I am correct, what are you talking about?  What is your evidence?

In San Diego, the entire Gathering was focused on the Biblical book of Revelation and the picture of Christ that is revealed.

 

Let me start with an illustration:

In Thailand every year, in the middle of April, at the height of the dry and hot season, locals and tourists alike engage in an all-out war: a country-wide water fight.  Because of the warm tropical climate, most of the water used in this "war," whether from a water gun, a bucket, or a hose, is tepid and almost soothing.  But a few, perhaps for the excitement they know it will surely bring, fill their water barrels with ice cubes--and then draw their water from thence.  When they cast this water upon unsuspecting passersby, the volley of water provoked in return is vigorous!

Gregory, you are quite right.  I am saying that The One Project introduces spiritualism into our church.  Nor am I the only voice saying it.  This "cold" element is literally game-changing, and provokes a vigorous response.  Anyone with access to online search tools can discover the truth for themselves.  The One Project is founded upon spiritualistic teachings, including those of spiritual formations.  A major mentor for the leaders of the Adventist One Project (the One Project exists outside of Adventism as well, and some may claim they are unrelated, but philosophical connections exist) is a man named Leonard Sweet.  Leonard Sweet was an invited speaker at TOP's Seattle conference.  And get this:

Leonard Sweet promotes spiritualism.

Leonard Sweet mentored a number of the founders of The One Project.

[Gregory Matthews]

Guilt by alleged association.  I have attended two Gatherings.  I have attended one mini-gathering.   I am a member of  the SDA church that has Japhet as the Sr. pastor (NOTE:  A bit over a year ago, I moved out of that areas.)  I personally know  what Japhet preaches. 

The One Project was not founded upon spiritualistic teachings.  Neither is the theology that Japhet promotes.

The One Project does not  teach spiritual formation.  Neither does Japhet in his SDA congregation.

Frankly, Green, you and others like you are doing a good work, but probably in a manner that you do not fully recognize at this time.  I predict, that within the next 12 months, the organized SDA denomination will take a more active role in stating to its members that to its members that allegations such as some are making are simply false and that TOP is a valid supporting ministry of the SDA denomination.   I predict that such statements will be made in the context of the denomination having made an exhaustive study of the TOP.

To be clear, I believe that in part, the work that you and some others are doing will be one of the reasons that an agreement will be reached that unites TOP to the denomination in a stronger manner than now exists.  To be clear, I believe that the motivation to accomplish this has already happened. So, it is do to the fact that I see positive outcomes of your work that I think you and express appreciation for what you are doing. 

It should be noted that I am not saying that TOP is perfect.  No human organization is perfect, to include spiritual organizations such as  the SDA denomination.  I have made some very clear comments, at times, to founding leaders of TOP.  Sometimes it has taken some passage of time for them to be convinced  that  my suggestions had merit.  But, they have listened to them and  considered what I have said to them.

I am well aware of suggestions that have been made to TOP founders and know that some of these suggestions have been worked into the program as it now exists.

I Personally believe that in that in the  future, as TOP Becomes more clearly connected with the denomination there may be more suggestions that will be accepted.

But, do not misunderstand me, in many respects TOP will remain with that solid central focus that it has today.  In that aspect, I do not see it as changing and I do not see the denomination suggesting that it change.

 

  

[Gregory Matthews]

Geerry K;

O.K.  You have written about     speaker that TOP brings in to speak at their gatherings.  The following is a listing of the speakers at the recent San Diego Gathering:

1) Jessyka Albert:  A Union College graduate in theology, who will later attend the Seminary and is presently working as an Intern Pastor.  She played a responsible role in the Communion Service.

2)  Steven Case:  Andrews graduate and specialist in Young adult Ministry.   He spoke on Jesus & Judgment, Revelation 20:7-125.

3) Damian Candler:  Senior pastor a the Sacramento Central SDA Church.  He spoke on Moses & the Lamb, Revelation 15: 2 & 3.

4) Japhet de Oliveira:  Sr. pastor at Boulder Colorado.  He had a lot to do with putting the Gathering together.

5) William Johnsson:  Former Review Editor.  He spoke on The Wedding Invitation, Revelation 19:6-9.

6) Chris Oberg: Sr. pastor of the La Sierra University Church.She spoke on The New City, Revelation 21:1-6 & 22-27.

7) Randy Roberts:  Senior pastor at t he Loma Linda University Church.  He spoke on The Everlasting Gospel, Revelation 14:6-7.

8) Iki TaimI:  Senior pastor at the Gardena Genesis Community Church.  The message was The Harvest of the Earth, Revelation 14:14-20.

9) Laurence Turner: Old Testament scholar who has taught at Newbold College in England and Avondale College in Australia.  He spoke on Jesus Is Coming, REelaton 22:6-14 & 20-21.

10) Mark Witas:  Lead teaching pastor at Pacific Union College.  He spoke on The Rider, Revelation 19:11-15.

NOTE  This is the entire listing of speakers at the 2-day Gathering, February 25 & 26.  Please do not challenge me with leaving out someone who may have made an administrative announcement, or some such other minor role.

[Green Cochoa]

The One Project tries to divorce Christ from His teachings.  In its officially published book, For the One, it states:  “He Himself was and is the message, not His teachings” (p. 23).  But why should we feel that Jesus and His doctrines are separate?  Can it be that leaders of TOP do not believe keeping God's commandments is necessary?

 

16 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Guilt by alleged association. 

What "alleged association" are you talking about?

[Gregory Matthews]

Folks to get a sense of the flavor of the San Diego Gathering, review my listing of every speaker at the actual Gathering, the title of their message and the verses in the Biblical Book of Revelation upon which they spoke.

An objective sense of all of  this would negate the garbage that is often thrown at TOP.

To put it simply:  All to many of TOP critics simply do not know what they are talking about due to their basing their beliefs upon 2nd and 3rd hand comments and have never personally seen what TOP actually does.

 

 

[CoAspen]

Did Christ operate on 'hear say'? If not then why do we have people claiming to be followers of Christ continue to do thatwhen talking about others? 

The accusers keep avoiding giving straight answers. GM answeres every question. Whom should we believe?

The accusers do not seek out real answers the their questions of the people they slander. GM has an upfront and at times personal relationship with those accused.

The Bible has much to say about such activities. 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Green made the following statement quoted below:

1) That statement is an accurate quote made at the 1926 General Conference by Carlyle Haynes.

2)  Green, in the interests of intellectual integrity, please do not cite a 1926 statement at a General Conference in a manner that some might think that you attributed it to a TOP Founder, even if you did not directly say that it was made by a TOP founder.

3)  However, in actual fact, the statement that you have quoted from that book and page, is a short piece that fails to accurately present what Haynes was actually saying.   My question to you is:  Why did you only quote that short sentence and not the entire quoted piece in the book.  The book contains four (4) additional sentences that give greater clarity to what Haynes was actually saying. 

 

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The One Project tries to divorce Christ from His teachings.  In its officially published book,

For the One, it states:  “He Himself was and is the message, not His teachings” (p. 23).  But why should we feel that Jesus and His doctrines are separate?  Can it be that leaders of TOP do not believe keeping God's commandments is necessary?

[Green Cochoa]

38 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

However, in actual fact, the statement that you have quoted from that book and page, is a short piece that fails to accurately present what Haynes was actually saying.   My question to you is:  Why did you only quote that short sentence and not the entire quoted piece in the book.  The book contains four (4) additional sentences that give greater clarity to what Haynes was actually saying. 

Well, by all means, why didn't you quote them?  I only quoted as much as had.  I don't have the book in hand.  Evidently you do.  Nevertheless, to say that Jesus, and not His teachings, is the message would be hard to explain away in four additional sentences, if you ask me.

[Green Cochoa]

More background about Leonard Sweet, including online sources that quote his own materials:

Sweet states in his book, Quantum Spirituality: “Mysticism, once cast to the sidelines of the Christian tradition, is now situated in postmodernist culture near the center.... In the words of one of the greatest theologians of the twentieth century, Jesuit philosopher of religion/dogmatist Karl Rahner, "The Christian of tomorrow will be a mystic, one who has experienced something, or he will be nothing." [Mysticism] is metaphysics arrived at through mindbody experiences. Mysticism begins in experience; it ends in theology.” Quantum Spirituality (Dayton, OH: Whaleprints, 1991), p. 76

 

In his book, Soul Tsunami, Leonard Sweet promotes spiritualism by promoting labyrinth walking. He writes: “Labyrinth walking is an ancient way of praying. Read Lauren Artress’s book Walking A Sacred Path: Rediscovering the Labyrinth as a Spiritual Tool (New York: Riverhead Books, 1995). Take an “audio tour” of the labyrinth or go on one of the “pilgrimages” at Grace Cathedral’s “Veriditas: The World-Wide Labyrinth Project.” Soul Tsunami, p. 432

 

How is Labyrinth walking spiritualism? If you will read Lauren Artress’s book that Sweet recommends you will readily see we are dealing with occult spiritualism in Christian garb.

 

In the book Sweet is recommending Artress writes: “The labyrinth is a large, complex spiral circle which is an ancient symbol for the divine mother, the God within, the goddess, the holy in all creation." Walking A Sacred Path: Rediscovering the Labyrinth as a Spiritual Tool.” p. 67

 

Elder Satelmajer, the fact that this quotation not only tends to affirm the effort to re-fashion God in a manner He has not seen fit to reveal Himself, as feminine, but much more significantly, it is the panentheistic “god within” which is involved --which perpetuates the lie of the serpent, “ye shall be gods” (Elohim).

 

The Labyrinth “Is truly a tool for transformation, a crucible for change, a blueprint for the sacred meeting of the psyche and the soul, a field of light, a cosmic dance, it is a center for empowering ritual.” Walking A Sacred Path: Rediscovering the Labyrinth as a Spiritual Tool.” p. 176

 

Artress says that “You walk to the center of the labyrinth and there at the center, you meet the Divine.” (Lauren Artress, “Q and A with Lauren,” Veriditas, Vol. 1, no. 2, Summer 1996, p. 18)

 

Artress describes her discovery of the labyrinth as one of the “most astonishing events of my life.” For her, the labyrinth is a “spiritual tool meant to awaken us to the deep rhythm that unites us to ourselves and to the Light that calls from within.”

 

An important fact to know is that geomancy and other occult arts are often incorporated in the building of labyrinths. Charles Gilchrist, a labyrinth promoter, states it has a direct connection to “Sacred Geometry,” a powerful potential as an oracle. And there are other “oracle systems” that are related to Sacred Geometry, Astrology, Numerology, I Ching, Rune Stones, and the Tarot.

 

“Veriditas is the non-profit organization that has grown up around the labyrinths at Grace Cathedral. They are dedicated to teaching people the history, use and potential of this spiritual tool. Veriditas Project founder Lauren Artress promotes the labyrinth as a way to connect with the divine feminine, the god within.” (Penn, September 1999, The New Age movement in the Episcopal Church).

 

Dr. Artress states, “The labyrinth provides a sacred space where the inner and outer world can commune, where the thinking mind and the imaginative heart flow together... a space to listen to our inner voice of wisdom”. Walking A Sacred Path: Rediscovering the Labyrinth as a Spiritual Tool.” p. 180

 

“The labyrinth is a shared esoteric tradition; in Native American culture it is called the Medicine Wheel and Man in the Maze. The Celts described it as the Never Ending Circle. It is also called the Kabala in mystical Judaism. One feature they all share is that they have one path which winds in a circuitous way to the center.” http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/05/teichrib/labyrinth.htm

 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

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The Desire of Ages book had a pivotal effect on us.  For one thing, this line, "For in Christ there is life eternal, unborrowed," finally settled the Arianist question.  It influenced leaders like Carlyle Haynes to preach sermons that called us back to Jesus.  At the 1926 General Conference session, he said, "The inmost central glory of the gospel therefore is not a great truth nor a great message nor a great movement, but a great Person.  It is Jesus Christ Himself.  Without Him there could be no gospel.  He came, not so much as to declare a message, but rather that there might be a message to proclaim.  He Himself was and is the message, not His teachings, but He Himself constituted Christianity."

above taken from For the One:  Voices from the ONE Project.  Chapter:  "They Heard a Voice,"  by Sam Leonor

[Gary K]

1 hour ago, The Wanderer said:

Let us hope & pray so. There comes a point where we have to let go and let God in all of this kind of stuff. We have to trust that God can and will work with the ones we view as being in error. If we cannot trust the Savior to handle what we can do nothing about; how then will the truth be known; and "Christ in you the hope in glory?" There could be a "trust God" issue here on both sides. Gary; I would be interested to hear your sources for the names you mentioned. They do not seem to match up with the names you supplied. What do you think?

If I understand your question to me correctly, I have seen video of Leonard Sweet addrssing a TOP conference.  I believe it was in Seattle but to verify that I would need to watch the video again.  Leonard Sweet is associated with Fox Universty, and at least one of the people in that program who Sweet mentored quoted Hal Tussig and spent several pages addressing what he had to say in their doctoral thesis.  I also read an interview of Leonard Sweet conducted by a Fox University employee in which Sweet was asked about the emergent church movement and Sweet answered positively about it in all his responses.  Sweet has written some very troubling books that contain theosophy.  Some of them are from more than a decade ago.   Google him and the books he has written. 

As to the Hal Tussig reference I looked him up because of what he was quoted as saying in the doctoral thesis I read of one of the people Sweet has mentored.  He is associated with some very questionable projects.  Google "a new new testament".  Hal Tussig's name comes up and in some of the links you will find that come up in that search you will find out that John Dominic Crossan was on the committee that created the new testament project that Hal Tussig headed up along with a whole bunch of people with very similar beliefs to Tussig and Crossan.  In my research into Tussig I ran across the fact that he was a co-founder of the Jesus Seminar.  

Does that answer your question?  It took me a few hours to trace out the links and the history of all this. 

Here is one link that associates Tussig with the Bible project and the Jesus seminar.  It doesn't state his full involvement the founding, but it makes the connection quite clear. http://religionnews.com/2013/03/28/scholars-piece-together-a-new-new-testament/

Here is another link that includes at least a number of the names of the people involved in the creation of the New New Testament.  https://www.christiancentury.org/blogs/archive/2013-05/new-canon-created-13-people

There is a ton of info on this.  It has just been quite a while since I did the research so I can not remember all of it off the top of my head.  I will see if I can find the name of the person who wrote the thesis I am referring to.  It was downloadable in a pdf file so I think if I can find the name again a Google search of Fox U and the name would come up with a link to the document.

[Gary K]

Wanderer,

What follows is a link to the thesis I mentioned.  I thought I had deleted it but I didn't.  It was easy to find the source of the thesis once I had the name of it.

http://digitalcommons.georgefox.edu/dmin/54/

[Gary K]

Wanderer,

No wonder nothing came up in your search.  It wasn't Fox U, it is George Fox U.  My memory seems to be failing me.

[Gregory Matthews]

In an earlier post, Green said in the quote below:

1)  Green makes my main point:  He does not have the book and was dependent a 2nd hand source (3rd hand?).   All of us probably do such,  but, normally such is poor scholarship.  [An example of an exception would be to cite a translation of a document written in the Cuneiform script.]

2)  Green is also correct in suggesting that an additional four (4) sentences would change much.  I could change a lot. But, maybe not.  A  much better response would be to look at larger context of the statement, which I will give below.

4)  The book For The  One came from a 50 page section devoted to a study of "Jesus in Our History."  The other two sections were "Jesus in Our Theology" and Jesus in Our Practice."

5) The actual  quote that Green cited came  from an eleven (11) page section that had the title:  "They Heard a Voice, Jesus in our Story," and written by Sam Leonor.

6) In that eleven page section , Sam quotes/cites/references:  Bible passages, Jesus, Paul (the Biblical writer), a poem (The Christian Martyr's Last Prayer) by Jean-Lean-Leon Gerome, Jan Hus, Ellen White, William Miller, Ellet Waggoner, Alonzo Jones, William Prescott, Carlyle Haynes, and Chris Blake. 

7) It can not be said that Sam agreed with every aspect of what the above listing of people understood and believed in regard to Christ.  So what is that reason that Sam included the quote that Green cited.  That is clearly stated by Sam.  The reason that he gives for the citation from Carlyle  Haynes that he believed that Haynes, in agreement with Ellen White was calling the SDA denomination to reject the background of Arianist theology that certain of our early leaders had.  That is his stated reason that he gives directly before he quotes from  Haynes.  He is making a point in the overall objective of the chapter that he is writing, which is to give historical background of this area of SDA belief.  It is not his purpose to challenge and correct the people whom he cites/quotes/references.

8)  One does not have to agree with every aspect of my thinking and understanding of Biblical teachings.  My major point is:  To depend upon 2nd and 3rd hand sources is typically open to major error.

 

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Well, by all means, why didn't you quote them?  I only quoted as much as had.  I don't have the book in hand.  Evidently you do.  Nevertheless, to say that Jesus, and not His teachings, is the message would be hard to explain away in four additional sentences, if you ask me.

[Gregory Matthews]

I have made statements about that Japhet presented in his Sabbath sermons at the church where he is the senior pastor.  These are all presented in video form on the Internet, where they remain for several months.  I have posted, several times, the links to  those video sermons.  Anyone who wants to know what has been presented can access them.  Japhet has nothing to hide.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

I am aware that some of you may think that Japhet has horns  growing out of his head.  Here is a  link to photos of the four (4) members of the Boulder SDA church pastoral staff:

https://boulder.church/about/team?tag=Pastors 

I can state without equivocation, that    I have never seen any sign of horns on the heads of any of them.

NOTE:  Japhet has informed me that he really likes the above post.   Posted by me  3/4/2017 at 8:15 hrs PST.

[Gregory Matthews]

In an earlier post, Gary K said below:

1) In an earlier post I have named every presenter at TOP San Diego Gathering.  Every presenter, with no exception was a committed SDA--pastor, scholar or retired administrator.  As I do not consider any human to be perfect, I am not going to say that I would agree with every aspect of any of their understanding of Biblical doctrine.  But, all were solid Adventists, with no exceptions.

2)  We are living in a time when non-SDA clergy and scholars are beginning to proclaim teachings on the State of the Dead and the Sabbath that, at least in part agree with SDA doctrine.  Some of this on the Sabbath comes from Jewish sources.  Just because these people may not be in full agreement with standard SDA doctrine does not mean that we should never hear them speak to us.   At one TOP Gathering, I heard a non-SDA clergyperson give a presentation of about 20 minutes on devoting the Sabbath to getting to know God better and     in building your spirituality.  He was careful to say nothing that conflicted with SDA doctrine.  Was it wrong for him to speak to us?  You decide.  I believe that there is often value to know what others are actually saying rather than to speculate based on conjecture.

3) To make your point you would need to demonstrate that the speakers introduced the teachings of  Theosophy into their presentations at a TOP Gathering.

4)  Further, it should be pointed out that your citations include 20 year-old statements of belief which have been denied to be current belief.  My current spiritual beliefs are not the same as they were on the day that I graduated from college.

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So, when speakers of this sort are brought into TOP we can know it is not one of God's movements.  The Holy Spirit would have nothing to do with such men, and the writings of Ellen White warn us explicitly away from reading or even listening to theosophy because of the decptiveness of it.  It is one of the devil's final deceptions and it is so deadly that if it is accepted it will sweep Christianity away completely.  It is exceedingly dangerous.  It makes pantheism look like child's play, and pantheism is so dangerous that we are warned to stay as far away from it as possible. 

Theosophy is the Omega of deceptions.  That TOP would bring in speakers who teach and have taught such things says nothing good about it. 

[Joel Melashenko]

On 2017-03-02 at 5:24 PM, Green Cochoa said:

Pastor Steve Wohlberg, whom I know personally and with whom I have communicated regarding TOP, spoke against it as well as against the dangers of the so-called "emerging church" movement in a sermon at Southern Adventist University.  Pr. Wohlberg is the president and founder of White Horse Ministries, and has an extensive audience through both radio and television.  An interview with him regarding the Emerging Church movement, including The One Project, is available here.

Japhet de Oliveira, one of TOP's founders, lied concerning Pr. Wohlberg's supposed change of mind regarding TOP.  I communicated with him directly and learned the truth.  That conversation is documented in another forum for other members to read.

I have read some of what the TOP founders have written.  I would compare some of it to the Book of Mormon which I have also tried to read.  They both give me a headache.  The logic is somewhat unusual, almost diabolical.

I have watched some of the TOP founders' sermons online.  I was quite disappointed in their use of cynicism and sarcasm for a laugh, and the hints they would make that the church was in the wrong and needed to change, such as on the issue of women's ordination.

Gregory, I think you know why I must remain anonymous here, and your reference to my anonymity I take as a direct attack against me and my ministry.  Perhaps, because I have spoken against TOP, you will have me excommunicated from this community.  So be it.  I will not jeopardize my work by revealing my identity, and I would far rather have my account here deleted than to do so.  If circumstances were otherwise and my work were not in danger, I can assure you I have no shame in what I am saying and I would never require anonymity.  Forty-five minutes' drive from my home lies a church whose members are not permitted to meet on Sabbath--by the government.  Negotiations with government officials have failed to reopen it.  In the other direction, about half an hour distant, the director of a major ministry and arm of our church who I will not name here was deported for doing Bible studies in his home.  The one who replaced him is now also being forced to leave next month for political reasons.  I do not reside in a land friendly to Christians.  Pastors are sometimes jailed for distributing literature.  Bibles must be smuggled in.  God watches over this work, and I trust He will take care of it.  But in a land where internet usage is monitored, and from which I must use an encrypted tunnel to post this message safely, to demand that I be outed is simply unthinkable for a military chaplain who ought to know better.  Did you not know my situation?

If you want to know the truth about TOP, do some research into its background and the background of its founders.  I did.  I did not simply accept the reports I had heard without checking things out for myself.  Instead of looking to "the arm of flesh" we should be looking to Jesus and following Him.  And what did Jesus say? "If ye love me, keep my commandments."  Mrs. White warned us of those who would teach only about Jesus' love, and avoid instruction on His commandments.  I take her warning to heart.  There is certainly nothing wrong with teaching that God loves us.  But God is particular, and requires obedience.  The Third Angel's Message speaks directly to this, and that is the message we are to be sounding to the world at this time.  Unfortunately, that message is not TOP's priority.

 

Green: A quick question (and pardon me if you've answered this already).  Have you personally been to a One Project gathering?

[Green Cochoa]

1 hour ago, Joel Melashenko said:

Green: A quick question (and pardon me if you've answered this already).  Have you personally been to a One Project gathering?

(Sorry for the long answer to a quick question, but the question itself begs for more information than a simple yes or no would convey.) 

As I live in Asia, I have not had opportunity, nor will I be likely to have opportunity for such in the near future.  So the short answer is no.  Furthermore, having learned as much as possible about it on behalf of some of my friends, I have found it to be an unsafe spiritual environment, and unworthy of my attendance or support.  I have had dear friends living nearby where the events have taken place, such as the one in Seattle, and I have witnessed the speakers and their presentations via the videos posted online, including Sam Leonor, Alex Bryan, Japhet de Oliveira, and others.  At the Seattle conference, Leonard Sweet was himself an invited guest speaker.  Such does not recommend the movement.

Alex Bryan, through new methodologies, helped to convert an entire church from Sabbath worship to Sunday keeping.  Before he could be fired by his conference for doing so, he resigned.  After this, he went right back into ministry, taking his modern ideas with him to Walla Walla.  Thankfully, after a letter-writing campaign alerted leadership in the NPUC to his background, he was not selected to be the university's president.  Unless things have since changed, it is my understanding that his brother still pastors the Sunday church that he helped start.

Mrs. White warns of those among us who would regard the Sabbath lightly.

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    As a people we have been greatly humiliated by the course that some of our brethren in responsible positions have taken in departing from the old landmarks. There are those who, in order to carry out their plans, have by their words denied their faith. This shows how little dependence can be placed on human wisdom and judgment. Now, as never before, we need to see the danger of being led unguardedly away from loyalty to God's commands. We need to realize that God has given us a decided message of warning for the world, even as He gave Noah a message of warning for the antediluvians. Let our people beware of belittling the importance of the Sabbath in order to link up with unbelievers. Let them beware of departing from the principles of our faith, making it appear that it is not wrong to conform to the world. Let them be afraid of heeding the counsel of any man, whatever his position may be, who works counter to that which God has wrought in order to keep His people separate from the world.  {7T 107.1} 

By this we should be "afraid" of listening to any of Alex Bryan's teachings.  Leonard Sweet is not even an Adventist, and yet he was given a special place at the One Project's Seattle conference to address our youth.  Does this not "link up with unbelievers"?

I have attended a GYC meeting.  It was very good.  I praise the Lord for GYC.  In fact, why not expand the GYC movement if we want to involve young people in the final work of the church?  Why do we need TOP at all?  To what purpose was it really established?  Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with having many ministries devoted to serving the Lord throughout our world.  But why does TOP focus on the same cities that GYC has covered?  If TOP were just a ministry with the same ideals as GYC, why do we not see it going only to places unreached by GYC?

The truth is that TOP is out to change the church's theology, and it does so by focusing on the young people who will be the next generation of leaders.  Scary. 

 

[Green Cochoa]

9 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

Whats "scary" to me is that some are making a whipping post out of TOP to enhance their own nefarious designs on how to discourage the church. I actually do not really like ministries like TOP, its just simply not my style, and when I was young enough to be one of the "young people" attending such meetings, I would have been unlikely to attend. But I draw the line at theological bully attacks against TOP like this, because there are, from what I can see, quite a few young people who want to start hanging around the church again, some of them for the first time. I have no trouble, after looking at it closer, in saying its a good ministry for youth. Green, if you could somehow get all those young people gathered up into your little box, and do everything the way you say; Id be willing to bet most of them would walk out again. I dont like seeing you get bullied here either, but it bugs me that everything in this topic is an argument with you, there is such a thing as unity, in diversity. Its one of the leading doctrines of our church, and practiced very well, I might add, by TOP  Maybe you have a problem with that doctrine? It looks like it.

Wanderer,

You seem to feel I stand alone in opposing TOP.  The following have all spoken against The One Project either directly or indirectly, such as by speaking against the theologies of The One Project without naming it.  This is far from a comprehensive list, but should give some here a little food for thought.

Alexa Hernandez
David Read
Dr. Allen Davis
Dustin Butler
Elder Dave Fiedler
Elder Mike Thompson
Elder Steve Wohlberg
Elder Steven Bohr
Elder Ted Wilson
Gerry Wagoner
Janet Neumann
Pastor Jan Voerman
Pastor Kevin Paulson
Pastor Larry Kirkpatrick
Pastor Rick Howard
Ron Duffield

 

 

[Joel Melashenko]

1 hour ago, Green Cochoa said:

(Sorry for the long answer to a quick question, but the question itself begs for more information than a simple yes or no would convey.) 

As I live in Asia, I have not had opportunity, nor will I be likely to have opportunity for such in the near future.  So the short answer is no.  Furthermore, having learned as much as possible about it on behalf of some of my friends, I have found it to be an unsafe spiritual environment, and unworthy of my attendance or support.  I have had dear friends living nearby where the events have taken place, such as the one in Seattle, and I have witnessed the speakers and their presentations via the videos posted online, including Sam Leonor, Alex Bryan, Japhet de Oliveira, and others.  At the Seattle conference, Leonard Sweet was himself an invited guest speaker.  Such does not recommend the movement.

Alex Bryan, through new methodologies, helped to convert an entire church from Sabbath worship to Sunday keeping.  Before he could be fired by his conference for doing so, he resigned.  After this, he went right back into ministry, taking his modern ideas with him to Walla Walla.  Thankfully, after a letter-writing campaign alerted leadership in the NPUC to his background, he was not selected to be the university's president.  Unless things have since changed, it is my understanding that his brother still pastors the Sunday church that he helped start.

Mrs. White warns of those among us who would regard the Sabbath lightly.

By this we should be "afraid" of listening to any of Alex Bryan's teachings.  Leonard Sweet is not even an Adventist, and yet he was given a special place at the One Project's Seattle conference to address our youth.  Does this not "link up with unbelievers"?

I have attended a GYC meeting.  It was very good.  I praise the Lord for GYC.  In fact, why not expand the GYC movement if we want to involve young people in the final work of the church?  Why do we need TOP at all?  To what purpose was it really established?  Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with having many ministries devoted to serving the Lord throughout our world.  But why does TOP focus on the same cities that GYC has covered?  If TOP were just a ministry with the same ideals as GYC, why do we not see it going only to places unreached by GYC?

The truth is that TOP is out to change the church's theology, and it does so by focusing on the young people who will be the next generation of leaders.  Scary. 

 

Thanks Green, I really was just fine with a yes or no.

[Gregory Matthews]

Green said,in the quote below:

You have got to be kidding me!   I do not believe that the location where GYC has their meetings has any effect on there TOP has theirs.  Contracts for the conference center are generally signed by TOP about a year prior to the meeting.  There is extensive planning and consideration given prior to those contracts.

I once made a suggestion to Japhet to hold a Gathering in a specific area.  In responding to me Japhet outlined in detail the criterial that TOP considered in selecting where they had the meetings and  why my suggestion was not likely to be selected in the near future.  Not once was GYC mentioned.  As a matter of fact, in all of my contact with TOP and its founders I have never heard of GYC being mentioned in any context. 

 

But why does TOP focus on the same cities that GYC has covered?  If TOP were just a ministry with the same ideals as GYC, why do we not see it going only to places unreached by GYC?