The Future of TOP

[Gregory Matthews]

Green said in the quote below:

GYC is attempting to reach an audience, according to the materials that I have read, that differs from the audience that TOP is attempting to reach.  [NOTE:   The materials that I have read about GYC were favorable to it and not critical.]

TOP is attempting to reach a mature, adult audience.  Yes, TOP Is expanding its outreach to include youth.  But, at the present time the youth has not become a majority of the audience that TOP reaches.  I do not see that changing in the future.

TOP has began a program for children, in part because their mothers and fathers have wanted this so that they could attend.

GYC can expand all it wants to do and that is fine with TOP.  TOP and GYC do not compete for the same audience.  To suggest otherwise is simply to fail to understand TOP

 

Quote

I praise the Lord for GYC.  In fact, why not expand the GYC movement if we want to involve young people in the final work of the church?  Why do we need TOP at all?  To what purpose was it

really established? 

[Gregory Matthews]

Wanderer:

Amen!

Excellent!

As to your funeral sermon, you are exactly on target as to what should be done.

As to your comments related to TOP:  Spiritual growth is a life long process in which many persons and methods must take part.  When an evangelist first brings people into the Church, there still must be a congregation that nurtures  a person as they grow.  TOP has one goal, to help a person to ground their belief and life practice that is centered in/on Jesus Christ.

No human organization is perfect.  But, much of the criticism that is directed at TOP is misinformation, half-truths, comes from people who have based their information on 2nd and 3rd hand sources and who have    refused to directly dialogue with those who run TOP.  I could name names, but, I do not   want to    descend to that level of critical response.  Nothing would be se served by such.

I will simply state that I know of attempts that the TOP leadership has made to attempt to directly dialogue with their critics.  I have posted a name and telephone number  here in CA.   I am aware of attempts that have been made to dialogue when TOP has had a Gathering in an area where a major critic lived.  I have personally given the TOP Leadership my personal opinion on some subjects.  It has always been  respectfully listened to.  No, it has not always been accepted and acted upon.      Although, some has been accepted with the passage of time. 

You say that there are aspects of TOP that do not meet your spiritual needs.  No problem.  People are different.  We can not be  reached by the same methods.  You should not be criticized for not reacting positively to something in TOP.  That is simply you and that is O.K.

I will say this:  Much of the music, as I understand it, is composed for the use of TOP, by a committed SDA Musician, who I know personally.  The words of those hymns are powerful and in accord with SDA teaching. 

NOTE:  I personally do not know what songs Elia King has written himself and what he has not written.

The following will take you to a URL that features one hymn, Mighty Is Our God.

https://www.bing.com/videos/searchq=Hymn+Mighty+Is+Our+God+by+Elia+King&&view=detail&mid=4102646845A93D9B57164102646845A93D9B5716&rvsmid=AB92CF5AD8F326E07A96AB92CF5AD8F326E07A96&fsscr=0&FORM=VDQVAP

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[B/W Photodude]

8 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

... There were over 300 natives and friends in attendance. I knew someone then who felt strongly that this was a BIG chance to preach the real truth about "the state of the dead." But I also knew that there was "the old religion" present in many of the folks attending and I decided to focus on the common hope that we all have in the resurrection,

None of the subsequent activities and blessings would have happened there, had I been a whipping post preacher and cursed them all for "believing a lie." That funeral was not the time to tell these people something like that, and it was not "apostate" or "evil" or any such thing when i chose my words more carefully.

(Thread drift ... [sort of!])

WE have a Baptist preacher who was preaching at a funeral in our town who was talking about Eve at the Tree of Knowledge and the statement that they would die if they ate of the tree. The preacher declared that God was a liar and Satan was right and you never die. This does fit in well with the belief in eternal hell at death. I even saw a YouTube video of someone who seems to have matching beliefs to this preacher who promoted the idea that during the time when Jesus died and was resurrected, he went to hell!

Sometimes, it seems, you can easily see where someone has gone "off the tracks" in their beliefs regarding what the Bible actually says. Often you cannot see where a belief set has diverged. Reality is, in the end times, many even in the SDA church will diverge and follow unsafe beliefs. Which suggests that lots of prayer, careful study of scripture, and abiding in Jesus are absolutely essentials for salvation.

[B/W Photodude]

17 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

The following have all spoken against The One Project either directly or indirectly, such as by speaking against the theologies of The One Project without naming it. 

This is far from a comprehensive list, but should give some here a little food for thought.

Alexa Hernandez, David Read, Dr. Allen Davis, Dustin Butler, Elder Dave Fiedler,
Elder Mike Thompson, Elder Steve Wohlberg, Elder Steven Bohr, Elder Ted Wilson,
Gerry Wagoner, Janet Neumann, Pastor Jan Voerman, Pastor Kevin Paulson, Pastor Larry
Kirkpatrick, Pastor Rick Howard, Ron Duffield

I am concerned about where The One Project is going with our church. When
Wilson, Wolberg, Kirkpatrick, and Bohr are concerned along with others, you have
to carefully consider what is the issue. So, included are a couple of links to
some articles that identify serious problems with the TOP:

http://advindicate.com/articles/2014/3/4/one-project-present-or-emergent-truth

http://thegreatcontroversy.info/the-one-project-analyzed.html

I would suggest one print it out and read it carefully.

If I was to run into someone with questions on the TOP, I would recommend they
stay far away.

[Green Cochoa]

15 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

I did not say or hint in any way that you were acting alone Green. I did not say it, and I did not intend it. you are doing what's called in sales and marketing something called "name dropping" here in this post.

Has "name dropping" taken on a new meaning in modern English?  I've been away from North America long enough I may have missed the new trend.  In any case, to my mind I have done nothing of the sort.  Name dropping, as I would use the term, would be to say things like "I have spoken with Elder Wilson personally on several occasions," or "I have shared some of my Biblical insights with Elder Bohr personally."  Name dropping is not a mention of someone's name merely, but rather a mention of that name to elevate one's own status.  It is using others' names to prop up one's own reputation or position in society.  So, no, I was NOT "name dropping."

15 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

And now that I look at some of the big names you bombed us with, I know that my comment is on the right track. You could have listed double that number of names and it would not have given any more credibility to your claims, and as if because these guys do it that makes it OK or "right" for you/us to also do? Thats called mob mentality.

I could certainly have listed double that number of names.  I don't think such is necessary.  When Elder Ted Wilson preached against some of the philosophies of spiritual formations and the emerging church movement in his inaugural speech, it showed he had a good pulse on what was developing in our church.  I believe God inspired him to speak the truth plainly at that time.  Many others on that list also do so now, with several of them having written entire books on the topic to warn our people.  If we simply opened the Bible with the help of the Holy Spirit, we might know all that is necessary to know to avoid The One Project.  But having faithful sentinels like these men and women who sound the warning in our church today is a blessing, and none should derisively call such watchmen a "mob."

15 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

But it could be said that you do stand alone in opposing TOP here because like your cohorts, you cannot actually spell out what even one problem is. You stated that they have some sort of "apostate confidence" and when I asked you to give an example of that, of how TOP is doing or exhibiting this, you reply with your big list of names.So can you, or can you not give us an example of how TOP is doing that please?

I have ALREADY answered this question for you.  Apparently, you missed it.  But to speak incorrectly about my supposed inability to answer it does yourself no favors.  Again, let me say this: When I spoke of "apostate confidence" I was NOT referring to TOP.  I was referring to apostasies in our church, of which TOP is one.  In other words, our CHURCH, and not TOP, has "apostate confidence" in a creed. 

If TOP places the same confidence in our creed that the church at large does, then TOP would be also guilty of this.  I have made no statement about this.  I do not at this time know what TOP's position might be regarding our creed.  It seems quite possible that TOP would reject it, at least in part, and therefore have less confidence in it than the church generally.

14 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

I have asked Green to give an example and he either wont or cant show us who or how they are showing us "an apostate expectation" of anything or anyone.

Again, you are incorrect.  It's not that I "wont" nor that I "cant."  I ALREADY HAVE answered this question and you either won't or can't accept my answer--is that right? 

15 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

I am familiar with all these names anyways; and i certainly do not count them as any kind of authority on many Biblical themes, including TOP. But first, lets see if you can give us a verifiable example of what I asked about.

Done.  Twice over.  I hope after this post you can lay to rest any connection between my statement regarding "apostate confidence" in our creed and TOP.  I suspect TOP has no such confidence.

[Green Cochoa]

9 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

NOTE:  I personally do not know what songs Elia King has written himself and what he has not written.

The following will take you to a URL that features one hymn, Mighty Is Our God.

https://www.bing.com/videos/searchq=Hymn+Mighty+Is+Our+God+by+Elia+King&&view=detail&mid=4102646845A93D9B57164102646845A93D9B5716&rvsmid=AB92CF5AD8F326E07A96AB92CF5AD8F326E07A96&fsscr=0&FORM=VDQVAP

 

The link did not take me to anything by Elia King, and unless "he" has a woman's voice, I did not detect him singing it either.  It took me to a beautiful rendition of Martin Luther's "A Mighty Fortress" sung by a European-accented woman's voice in English.  The title presented just above the picture of a castle fortress in Austria did say "Elia King."  But I'm sure you would not claim he wrote the 500-year-old hymn!

[JoeMo]

16 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

Name dropping is not a mention of someone's name merely, but rather a mention of that name to elevate one's own status. 

It seems like you listed all those names to lend some form of credibility to your claims about TOP.  Isn't seeking credibility a form of elevating one's status?  If I were a "name dropper", I could come up with a list of church leaders that support (or at least don't condemn) TOP.  If you don't like TOP, don't be part of it.  It's kinda like watching evil media (whatever your definition of evil is)- if you're against it, don't participate in it.  But don't condemn others who don't see things exactly the same way you see them.

[Green Cochoa]

3 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

 If I were a "name dropper", I could come up with a list of church leaders that support (or at least don't condemn) TOP.

Again, that would not be name dropping.  More and more these days seems to be dependent on definitions, and people are moving the goal posts. 

name-dropping |neɪm ˈdrɑpɪŋ|
noun
the practice of casually mentioning the names of famous people one knows or claims to know in order to impress others.

[Gregory Matthews]

Green, the link that I provided took you, both where you said it did and where I said it would.  Sometimes that link opens as you said it did and sometimes it open as I said it would.   Click on the < to go back and the > to go forward.

 

[B/W Photodude]

The Wanderer said:

As one or two other posters`asked/recommended, why go to one
of these dudes when you can personally check out TOP for yourself, and then
actually show me/us what specifically are they doing that is so "apostate?" I
already know you cannot do it, but I am sure some will try.

Sorry, but I will have to politely decline personally checking them out. You do
not need to go sit at their feet to know what they are all about. I personally
see it as a bit of a trap to be inducing people to go and see personally what
TOP is all about. You can see the rationales from the following quotes:

Quote

 

According to EGW: “Just as long as men consent to listen to these sophistries, a
subtle influence will weave the fine threads of these seductive theories into
their minds, and men who should turn away from the first sound of such teaching
will learn to love it. .” (Manuscript Releases, vol. 10, P. 163).

When we consent to listen for reasons we have been warned not to listen
(obtaining new direction and light), we are permitting ourselves to fall under
the power of a “branch of hypnotism.” This is the danger in thinking we can
separate the truth from the error in the writings of those in the fallen
churches. We cannot because we must violate the counsel above, which says not
to, placing us under the power of fallen angels. It has to do with choice.

Notice we read, “Men who should turn away from the first sound of such teaching
will learn to love it.” This change of heart reveals a conflict between the
powers of good and evil. For those who choose to remain and listen to teachers
who are known to teach error, and from whom we have been warned in the Spirit of
Prophecy not to seek light from, and who teach a mixture of truth and error,
evil angels have gained the right to “weave their thoughts,” together with
theirs. Since they decided with their own will, they succumb to a power and
influence that inspiration calls “a branch of hypnotism.” Like Eve in the Garden
of Eden, they do not recognize that this is a form of hypnotism, but because
they chose not to “heed the warnings,” fall under satanic deception. They may
become excited believing they are actually in touch with divinity, receiving
light and new ideas from God, when the truth is that they are being deceived,
and their sensibilities have been deadened. Oh, the danger of trifling with the
powers of spiritualism, especially after having been warned and known the truth.
God have mercy.

Yet Dr. Bryan and the other co-founders of this movement are happy to reject or
ignore the Spirit of Prophecy warnings, and accept the teachings of those who
are in “darkness and error,” like Emergent theologians.  This has become a
regular practice in the Seventh-day Adventist Church, with the belief we are
able to discern that which is true and helpful from the error that also exists. 
Please read carefully – IT IS NOT TRUE THAT WE HAVE THIS ABILITY.

Angels that protect our understanding must leave our side when we choose to
violate the counsel to not even “listen to these sophistries.”  In The One
Project meetings held all over the world, there is little if ever any mention of
the Three Angels Message, yet the teachings of mystics (like Dr. Leonard Sweet)
are mentioned.   His books are distributed to the youth at their meetings; books
which contain the poison of truth and error.  Our doctrine, meant to keep us
separated from the fallen churches of Babylon, is minimalized because the goal
of the Emerging Church is the uniting of all churches under the banner of Roman
Catholicism.  Is this what we want as a mission?  I pray you are beginning to
see the danger.

 

The Wanderer said: Lots of people who do this do not know the truth at all.

2 Timothy 3:7 "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the
truth." I am aware of this also.
 

The Wanderer said: I dont care how much study and prayer one does, I will listen
and judge each on their own individual merits. Your one post seems to lend much
credit to what 4 named men teach and those guys barely mentioned a Bible, let
alone quote one. Name dropping, in 3D

I am sorry you feel that a person is unable to consider another persons opinions
regarding any subject. While I consider some to be valuable to consult, I am
also well aware that every individual is responsible for their own salvation. I
listed four of the names from the prior posted list as ones who I am familiar
with and value what they have to say. Of course, as always, one must be
comparing things with scripture. No name dropping was done or intended. 

You should not accuse people of such.

[Green Cochoa]

30 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

IF that is true, surely you could point me to something on the TOP website that even hints at doing this?

Their website is likely studiously clean. In the case that it isn't, your mind appears studiously made up and prepared to resist any opposition to it.  Nonetheless, their website is not the primary place to look to find the "fruits" that Jesus told us to evaluate.

God will work in His own time and way to reveal the truth.  But woe unto those who have led others into deception!  And how perilous it is to walk right into something while being dismissive of the warnings of God's faithful servants, saying such things as "I dont care how much study and prayer one does" and then trusting your own judgment in place of their counsel.  To speak of the "multitude of counsellors" as a "mob" in order to justify this action, condemning the faithful witness of those who would point to their wisdom as "name dropping" (a redefinition of the term that is not faithful to the dictionary), is to lack wisdom. 

The Bible says: "Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety." (Proverbs 11:14)

But, Wanderer, the Bible also says "Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."  Go ahead.  Go to those meetings you find so attractive.  But do not later blame me for not having tried to warn you.

 

I am nobody special.  At times, I feel worthless.  I get discouraged easily, which is perhaps sinful on my part.  I often take a lonely stand on an issue, as I may be doing here.  However, I cannot in good conscience hold my peace when I have been privileged to understand the true deceptiveness of this movement.  One of my tenth-grade teachers for whom I had great respect, as she showed through her instruction that she maintained a daily connection with God, taught us to expect a false revival at the end before the true would come.  I see all the telltale markings of that in the Emerging Church movement, with The One Project aiming to head it up in our church today.  Thankfully, my parents instilled in me a precious love and appreciation for both the Bible and Ellen White, and the latter gives explicit counsel in this regard.

I was shown the necessity of those who believe that we are having the last message of mercy, being separate from those who are daily imbibing new errors. I saw that neither young nor old should attend their meetings; for it is wrong to thus encourage them while they teach error that is a deadly poison to the soul and teach for doctrines the commandments of men. The influence of such gatherings is not good. If God has delivered us from such darkness and error, we should stand fast in the liberty wherewith He has set us free and rejoice in the truth. God is displeased with us when we go to listen to error, without being obliged to go; for unless He sends us to those meetings where error is forced home to the people by the power of the will, He will not keep us. The angels cease their watchful care over us, and we are left to the buffetings of the enemy, to be darkened and weakened by him and the power of his evil angels; and the light around us becomes contaminated with the darkness. {EW 124.3}

Wanderer, the errors start with simple things, and move gradually toward things of a more complex and less discernible nature.  When you have found them, you remember that the Bible tells us "if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."  Attitude is one of the biggest issues with TOP--attitude toward the church.  The whole idea of "recalibrating" the people who come to the TOP meetings implies that whatever they have learned in the church in the past must be undone, i.e., it was wrong.  To say things like "He [Jesus] didn’t — and doesn’t — call people to follow a religion, a denomination, a congregation, a preacher, a cause or a movement. He calls them to Himself" (Sam Leonor) doesn't sit well with those who see Jesus calling people to join the Adventist movement out of the churches of Babylon.  True, God, to whom we look, is the Head of His church.  But His sheep are not to be scattered without shepherds.  They are not counseled to be separate from others.  The Bible says "forsake not the assembling of yourselves together."  And Sam is probably not trying to say people should abandon church-going either--but the effect of his rhetoric is to lessen the regard people will have for the church.

[Green Cochoa]

12 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

And just how would you, or anyone else, know this kind of thing about my mind? Especially given the situation that we have not ever met in person. You are stating something "as it appears" but there are no proofs for such things.

Your posts here, Wanderer, give that appearance.  I did not say I "knew" nor that I had "proof" of it.  I will say, however, that if your mind is not made up already, you should be less willing to oppose what others are saying for fear of turning out to be on the wrong side of the question.  Thus, your confidence in making statements gives the impression that you are well persuaded in your own mind.

[CoAspen]

It seems, perhaps, that the underlying issue is the words....

Quote

To say things like "He [Jesus] didn’t — and doesn’t — call people to follow a religion, a denomination, a congregation, a preacher, a cause or a movement. He calls them to Himself" (Sam Leonor) doesn't sit well with those who see Jesus calling people to join the Adventist movement out of the churches of Babylon.

Since there are those who elevate the 'Adventist movement' to an equality of following Christ, it would be easy to understand that an organization such as  The One Project would be beaten from pillar to post. I would suspect that those opposed to One P are also opposed to many other things about the SDA.org. 

[JoeMo]

11 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

 Our doctrine, meant to keep us separated from the fallen churches of Babylon, is minimalized because the goal of the Emerging Church is the uniting of all churches under the banner of Roman Catholicism.

Puleeeze!!! Realistically, do you think that there is a chance in hades that SDA's and other conservative Protestant churches would ever accept that the wafer and wine is the ACTUAL body and blood of Christ?  That they would ever worship Mary?  That they would ever believe that the pope is the infallible representative of Christ on earth?  If so, you appear to be living in paranoid fear.

What is the emerging church?  Is it a movement to initiate a truly generic world religion that includes Muslims Buddhists, Hindus, animists, pagans, etc.?  If that's the case, I will have no part of the Emerging church.  Is it a movement to put aside our idiosyncratic "minor" (non-salvational) doctrines in an effort to unite Christianity in a cosmic battle against those who are enemies of Yahweh and Christ?  If so, bring on emergence!  It will take a UNITED Christianity to resist the satanic movements that are soon coming upon us and to finish the work God gave to all of the followers of Christ - not exclusively to the followers of Ellen White.