Why go to church?

[cricket]

Isn't Sabbath School, fellowship and prayer enough? Why bother with the formal "worship" service?

[Clio]

Hmmmm that question can be phrased a couple of ways.

Why bother with a formal worship service?

Why bother with a formal worship service?

Why bother with a formal worship service?

Or... just plain

Why bother?

I guess it basically goes back to relationship over religion again. Where are you at in your relationship with Abba and True Jesus and does it lead you to church?

The answer to that question is different for all of us. For me, it's doesn't lead me to church all that often. But some of my beliefs are at odds with those that lead others of you to the building every Sabbath morning.

Yes, the Bible says we need fellowship. Fellowship doesn't just mean showing up and playing church on Sabbath morning. If the only time one opens the Word and studies is in the building on the corner, where people pray on Sabbath, if the only time one interacts with the people where one attends church is on Sabbath between the hours of 9:00 and 2:00 (allowing time for fellowship dinner) then truly the question is, "Why bother?". Fellowship doesn't mean the kind of loose interaction such implies. And a sermon is a poor substitute for digging into the Word of Abba for one's self with the Holy Spirit for a Guide.

Fellowship means to really get to know one's fellow brothers and sisters in True Jesus. It means to get to know Jesus so well you are no longer confused when you hear His Voice. It means to share deep, anguish-making sins and trials and disappointments and receiving loving support and ....hmmmm.... fellowship in return. It means to offer up the loving, non-judgemental, accepting fellowship sought after by other wounded, needy humans.

So... if the milk is no longer sufficient, one is not receiving the meat they crave, and the interaction is only on Sabbath morning, then why bother at all?

On the other hand, if one's objective is to worship the Creator and give Him glory, and one finds blessing in doing so among others in a building on Sabbath morning, then why would one be anywhere else unless one could also worship the Creator and Kinsman Redeemer in spirit and in truth in that somewhere else?

We are taught that the Sabbath is kept by "keeping it holy and going to church". In truth, it says "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor and do all thy work." It does NOT say "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy and go to church."

So... having rambled, and mumbled, and posited, and babbled.... back to Cricket's question:

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Isn't Sabbath School, fellowship and prayer enough? Why bother with the formal "worship" service?

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[Bravus]

I tend to find that when people ask the 'why go to church?' question (and this is not aimed at you, Chrys, but at the question you asked), the answers often come in the form of 'it doesn't do anything for me' or 'I don't get anything out of it'. I think there are better questions about 'how can I serve others by going?' and 'what does my presence there do for others?' There are communal benefits and 'goods' that benefit us and others, and that aren't captured by 'I' questions (good old Western over-individualism bites us yet again).

Having said all that, I see no reason why the main service has to be a teacher-centred, one talks/many listen type of experience. Things like the Quaker service where all listen and all have the opportunity to talk appeal to me, but less radically than that I think we can explore better models in which community is more the focus than information-transfer.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Cricket,

Here's what came to mind,

Act 13:15 "And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, (Paul & Barnabas) saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on."

Paul then got up and started telling the peeple about the Lord and salvation by Him. The results? Act 13:42 "And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. 43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God."

Norman

[cricket]

Good answers, all.

Coming together to hear the word of God is necessary for unbelievers. For believers, however, is it necessary to hear the word of God at a formal worship service when we have the word of God at home (and in Sabbath School)?

I asked the question, not because it is something I struggle with, but because it was raised by our pastor last week. He is suggesting that the formal worship service is unnecessary. Furthermore, he is suggesting that the need for a pastor is unnecessary, rather that we should all be ministers one to another.

What good does it do us--what good does it do others--to spend our time hearing the word of God when we've already heard (most of) it? Wouldn't our time be better spent on our knees praying for one another; in fellowship hearing each others' needs and responding to them; and in our Bibles with like-believers deeply studying the scriptures?

Is the formal church service necessary? Whom does it serve?

[Clio]

It would appear your pastor and I contemplate similar concepts with regard to worship.

Would that it were such that pastors were unnecessary.

[Dr. Shane]

"And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching." Heb. 10:24, 25

I am not sure where the formality of the divine service comes into play but it does tend to give some a respect for the holiness of God. I don't know how many churches throughout the NAD have AY services but they are normally held on Sabbath afternoon about an hour before sunset and are much less formal with a lot of interaction.

Are pastors necesary? I think they are needed to provide guidance but the church members should be in the leadership and the outreach roles. If the church members carried more of the load a pastor should be able to oversee 4 or 5 small to medieum size congregations.

[Pockey]

Cuz the church can't go to us?

[Bravus]

lol @ sid's post

I guess in the old days we used to see the pastor as the source of knowledge of the Bible and of wisdom, and as someone who would tell us what to do. I think that was a distortion in a sense, since it placed a human in the role of 'head' that is Christ's by right. We are coming to understand a role for leaders as servants, which is what Jesus taught when he was on earth: if anyone could have been a boss, he could, but he washed the disciples' feet.

The move parallels the one in schools, but it's a fallacy that making learning more 'student-centred' reduces the teacher's role or makes it irrelevant. Rather, designing good leaner-centred activities and learning has the teacher *more* active, and in many ways *more* important: after all, if it was just about disseminating information, students could just read the textbook.

So pastors may well need to revise their role and understand it in some new ways (i.e. not as preaching for 40 minutes every week), but their role is still crucial to the on-going spititual growth of the individual members and the congregation as a whole.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Cricket,

Here are some other reasons for the divine service:

For me, I really like being with God's people and find that we need more time together.

God speaks to us as one body. He is trying to unify us. We are way too independant as it is. "My rights" "My Body" "No one can tell me what to do" and saying like this are the norm, even among some Christians. The more we are together and hear God as speaking to us the better off we are.

God talks through the speaker to address His people in a special way that can't be replaced by prayer, SS or any other service. There is a time for everything. I wouldn't consider it wasted time because there is always something to learn from someone as the Spirit is there to bless us regardless of the message and the messenger.

This was a means of communicating that Jesus and the Apostles used. I wouldn't it terminated.

Now, having said these things, it is important that the speaker have a well thought out message that is Spirit led. Not just somebody trying to entertain the members and guests with a few laughs here and there.

It is a good question to ask because I think a lot of us don't consider not hearing a sermon and it causes us to think about our convictions and traditions.

Norman

[cricket]

[LifeHiscost]

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Clio said:

Why bother?

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Isn't Sabbath School, fellowship and prayer enough? Why bother with the formal "worship" service?

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[:"red"]

Their responsibility is to equip God's people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ,

[/] Ephesians 4:12 NLT

[:"red"] "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen." [/] Matthew 28:20 KJV

Maybe if the first were being accomplished, the latter would be understood. OTOH, 'You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink'!!

[Nicodema]

If the first were being accomplished, LHC, we wouldn't be asking "why bother going to church".

This guy I've recently gotten in touch with on the internet -- another ex-Satanist who is now a Christian minister -- was asking me about church, and I told him I already have a church that I go to. He said yes, but are you experiencing church. Given a New Testament definition of that term I'd have to say no, I'm really not. Sometimes the sermon is great and inspiring ... but then afterwards everyone goes back into plain old everyday human life mode. Same problem I had when I was in the occult, really -- I would get frustrated because people would manifest these incredible things and then go back to being ordinary dull humans. I wanted to STAY in the realm where things were HAPPENING. I didn't want to just taste it for an hour and then go back to dull little ho-hum, hum-drum living. I wanted to take it out into the world and take the world by storm with it!!!

But -- here's the critical part -- I didn't want to do that ALONE. And it's the same now with "church". Jesus even sent His disciples out TWO BY TWO. He said where TWO or more are gathered in His name, there He is in the midst of them. It's not a "solitary" experience that is intended. I don't want to go to church, get all hyped up with inspiration and drive and zeal for the Lord -- and then go home alone. I want to DO SOMETHING WITH IT while it is FRESH ... with OTHERS who want to DO SOMETHING WITH IT.

I skipped church today because I am wiped out from the past couple days and just feeling lazy and unmotivated. I don't feel I missed anything that won't be there next week -- and that's a shame.

At this point I think I'd like to try and find a good house church in my area. Preferably one worshiping on Sabbath of course, but most importantly, one where people are really experiencing Jesus Christ as present and real, and the presence and activity of the Holy Spirit in equipping, fortifying, "fructifying" (bearing fruit) and leading them for REAL.

[Dr. Shane]

It is like a marriage in that it takes work to keep the flame alive. I find the more I give to the work the more I get out of it. I have been a member of a church that was so cold that one could ice skate in the aisles. Yet I got some literature and the left over Little Friends and decided to go door to door.

It didn't take me long to find a couple of others willing to go with me. I would invite them to my apartment for lunch and we would go out afterwards. We would stamp on the back of the literature the radio station and time of Voice of Prophecy and the TV station and time of It Is Written. Oftens times we went door to door and sometimes we would go through the shopping malls and leave literature on benches and phone booths.

It is like the old saying, "It takes a friend to make a friend." The church I am in now is very active. We had the academy band playing for worship service this morning and this afternoon we have disaster releif classes.

[gina i]

I find that Sabbath School is not enough. For me, the whole point of going to church is Worship. Since my SS class is a discussion class, it's not formally taught.. Worship is the meat of church for me. We're there for one thing, Jesus.

[Dr. Shane]

The preacher today said that when we leave we should ask ourselves if the choir was good or if the band was good or the preach was good. We should ask ourselves is we did a good job worshipping since the reason we go is to worship.

[Gerr]

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I asked the question, not because it is something I struggle with, but because it was raised by our pastor last week. He is suggesting that the formal worship service is unnecessary. Furthermore, he is suggesting that the need for a pastor is unnecessary, rather that we should all be ministers one to another.

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[:"blue"]Is it possible that his sermons are just drivel and not worth listening to?

I have heard or read it somewhere that outside North America, church growth is inversely proportional to the number of pastors, especially in South America.[/]

Gerry

[Nicodema]

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Cricket said:

I asked the question ... because it was raised by our pastor last week. He is suggesting that the formal worship service is unnecessary. Furthermore, he is suggesting that the need for a pastor is unnecessary, rather that we should all be ministers one to another.

What good does it do us--what good does it do others--to spend our time hearing the word of God when we've already heard (most of) it? Wouldn't our time be better spent on our knees praying for one another; in fellowship hearing each others' needs and responding to them; and in our Bibles with like-believers deeply studying the scriptures?

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Amen, Cricket. This is true. But it would require a complete restructuring of not just how we DO "church" but our total concept of what "church" IS. I would like to see Believers gathering and manifesting the gifts of the Spirit in their midst, in edification and building up one another so as to fortify each other to go forth and do the Lord's work together. Prayer and Bible study are parts of this picture but so is the equipping of the Holy Spirit and the exercise of spiritual gifts.

[gina i]

Hebrews 10:25

Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

[cricket]

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Is it possible that his sermons are just drivel and not worth listening to?

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No, he is perhaps one of the best speakers you will ever hear in your lifetime. See for yourself: Transition: Fellowship, Not Preaching

[Gail]

I like this question- très bien!!

How about another angle?

When I think about the Old Testament convocations, I think about the congregation coming together to fall at God's feet.

I consider my church-going just like that- not a place where the service should minister to my needs, whatever they are at the moment (although it often ends up doing exactly that anyway)

I remind myself that the reason I go to church is to give back my praise to the Lord, because of who He is. I view it as a corporate gathering of folks giving adoration and worship, in unity. Sometimes if I don't feel like going, it is a sacrifice, but the Bible does talk about the "sacrifice of praise" and I can live with that.

[Nicodema]

I find when things are going well and I'm feeling strong in the Lord I feel fine going to church, enjoy it, look forward to it. Generally because then I have something to offer to others in going there.

When I have needs though -- heartaches, hurts, soul-hungers -- it's best to stay away. I don't handle disappointment well.

There's something both right AND wrong with that picture ...

[Gail]

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Nicodema said:

When I have needs though -- heartaches, hurts, soul-hungers -- it's best to stay away. I don't handle disappointment well.

There's something both right AND wrong with that picture ...

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You have truly spoken, but what is the answer? How is someone like me, for instance, to know just how you like your church family to be? It does take time to get to know folks. How exactly are we to know what your needs are, when we don't know you well enough to feel comfortable to ask?

I'm not saying that is how it is in your case, I'm just pondering. Thinking upon the subject more, I think that I do appreciate the congregations that I am more familiar and comfortable with. To get to that point took some time, some effort on my part to be friendly to others, such as attending other events than just the service

There are people who quite naturally are social, though. I tend not to be one of those <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I think that one good friend makes a LOT of difference

[Clio]

One good friend. Hmmmmm... yes....

[Pockey]

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Nicodema said:

I find when things are going well and I'm feeling strong in the Lord I feel fine going to church, enjoy it, look forward to it. Generally because then I have something to offer to others in going there.

When I have needs though -- heartaches, hurts, soul-hungers -- it's best to stay away. I don't handle disappointment well.

There's something both right AND wrong with that picture ...

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I know how you feel. I went to church a few weeks ago, feeling perky, smiley, "good". And then I heard a really great sermon about coming to church and breaking down the walls we put up around us. The pastor's message was to let others know that we're in need. To let go and ask for help, and break down the walls we put up around us. That really opened my eyes, that although we go to help others, we also go, as Gregory mentioned in another thread, to take care of ourselves.