Why go to church?

[Nicodema]

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Gail said:

You have truly spoken, but what is the answer? How is someone like me, for instance, to know just how you like your church family to be? It does take time to get to know folks. How exactly are we to know what your needs are, when we don't know you well enough to feel comfortable to ask?

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I can't answer these questions. For one thing they sound like accusations to me, and I don't understand why it's suddenly MY fault that others "don't know me well enough." I'm there. I'm me; I'll talk to anyone who gives me the time of day. If others can't be bothered or are not interested, I'm not going to "force" myself on them. That would be social suicide right there.

But ultimately all this just begs the response I gave before. Once again, it only works if I'm there in the frame of mind that I'm there to offer whatever I can to others, and when I'm in need, I'm better off staying away.

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Gail said:

To get to that point took some time, some effort on my part to be friendly to others, such as attending other events than just the service.

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Gail, I attend other events besides just the service also. I do what I can to be friendly to others, although like you, I am not the "social butterfly" type by nature. I will start conversations, participate in conversations, etc. I don't just keep off to myself, but neither am I going to "push" myself on others or try to get undue attention or pout and make a stink over being ignored or WHATEVER, because all those things drive people away -- they set off red flags that you are a person to be avoided. I don't just "dump" my troubles on anyone who will listen either ... if I get to know someone to a sufficient degree, and think they might actually give a rat's behind, I will "test the waters" with a casual, careful statement first and see what kind of response I get. If I don't get something that is BOTH "all clear" and "SAFE" I won't proceed; I'll just brush it off or laugh it off and go on pretending everything is "just fine." Even if it seems safe to proceed, I do so with utmost caution because I've been burned enough to not want to be burned again, and I don't just get burned by bad encounters with people. If I "mess up" that way (open my citadel by mistake to the wrong thing) I will invariably "catch hell" from the "abyss within" as well, which is far worse and much longer lasting, and can rob me of hours, days, even weeks on end before I "surface" and can "breathe" (function normally) again. So I have to be very, VERY careful, because if I err in this area I will be severely punished from the inside.

[Nicodema]

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Sid said:

I heard a really great sermon about coming to church and breaking down

the walls we put up around us

. The pastor's message was to let others know that we're in need. To let go and ask for help, and break down

the walls we put up around us

.

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If I have put up walls around me, it is because the message I've gotten consistently from other people is that they WANT those walls there, even to the point where they are willing to harm me if I fail to comply. The message I have gotten consistently from other people is that I am not acceptable when I hurt or need. I am "being a bad person", "being selfish/self-centered" and "not a good Christian."

THEY WANTED (basically demanded) those walls there; I did NOT. That is not the way I wanted things, but the way they wanted things.

[Gail]

Nico

I understand what you are saying, for I have had those very same feelings...

Myself, I tend to stay away from those who are outgoing. I don't know if it is because I don't trust people or what. Part of it is because I prefer more than superficial relations and maybe I think inside that the more "showy" ones aren't there

And it might be one of those things where it ISN'T the fault of one or the other or it COULD be the fault of one or the other or both. When I think of the friendships that I do have, it was a combination of circumstances that made them come about, more of a chance or timing thing.

I know it sounds terrible, but because of my introverted nature, I tend to choose those I hang out with very carefully, and many times I prefer to be alone. If I want company, it is nearly ALWAYS with only one other person.

I'm glad that the church is not wholly made up of people like me. OTOH, the friends that I do have, have been lifetime, intimate, private individuals. When I think of it, most of my friends are also loners. I do believe that there is a place for all of us

[Nicodema]

Gail, most of the time I feel like an alien from another world who is trying to figure out how to convincingly copy human behavior to "pass" for one (a human that is). That's nothing new and is not a product of my years with Satan, either; I have felt that way all my life. I remember clearly feeling that way when I was a small child even though I didn't have those words in which to articulate it. I just felt like no matter what I tried to do to be "one of them" they just weren't buying it -- even when to my eyes I'd copied it precisely. In fact, copying it precisely just seemed to scream even more loudly how very much NOT one of them I was.

Re outgoing people -- there's this bunch at a church I started going to recently (in the past couple months) who, after I'd been there like 3 times, invited me to come sit with them, come to the home of one of them that evening to watch a movie, etc. I did, that first night. We watched "Pirates of the Carribbean". It was OK, but I felt a little "squicked" watching the scenes with the supernatural stuff in it. It made me feel dirty. I didn't complain though. But they were going to spend the next several Sat. nights watching the LoTR trilogy & I just didn't feel like doing that. So I didn't go. I said I just wasn't really into LoTR but to let me know what else they planned to do after that and I might come over again. Since then they have been kind of "distancing" themselves from me it seems. I don't know if that's my imagination or my keen "sixth sense" (for pattern recognition I mean), to tell you the truth. I just feel like maybe they've "cooled off" toward me and aren't so keen on including me anymore. Plus I went through another vortex period 2/22 through 3/3 and I honestly don't know if I did something or not, i.e. if it showed, if I acted strangely in front of them, because I'm just "not all there" during those times. I don't know any of them well enough to talk about this directly with them though. I guess we'll just see what happens.

***deleted personal stuff***

[Gail]

Would one friend make a difference? (I've been pondering this lately)

[Nicodema]

Possibly. I guess that would depend on what kind of friend they were. Fair-weather, arms-length & "surface only" doesn't cut it for me, obviously...

[David_McQueen]

When we say go to church are we just talking about Sabbath services?

Personally I have been trying to be part of a deeper church experience. Something that is not just a weekend thing, but one that exists outside of prayer meetings, communal worship services, etc and spills over into my emotional and social needs as well. I prefer smaller groups for a while now than the larger congregations. Better accountability, deeper fellowship. IMO.

I attend and love Sabbath school but get frustrated with the ritual stand up sit down, kneel down, stand up, clap handedness of churches. Maybe my journey is that I am looking for something more within myself than just outside, but currently I dont enjoy going to church as it stands.

Interesting thing is though I am an extrovert (and Gail loves me for it!) I really love the idea of high church/Quaker services.

searching.......

[Nicodema]

I would love to find some place to be part of a deeper church experience, a fellowship that goes beyond the formal meeting (whether we're talking on Sabbath or on Wednesday nights). A smaller group, yes. And one where the Spirit is permitted to move freely, and not hindered or laced up in a box of preconceptions and prefabricated fears or superstitions.

[Gail]

Small groups- YEAH <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif" alt="" />

I once belonged to a small group and it changed the lives of all of us who attended

I have a friend whose church had a goal of forming 500 small groups. At their church they don't even encourage the idea of someone attending the regular church services until they've been established in a small group first. That is because their church membership is so large

[Nicodema]

I've looked online to try and find a "house church" in my area, but so far no luck. And then of course even if I do find something what if they aren't sabbath keepers? Maybe that shouldn't be a deal breaker but as I've always been a sabbath keeper as long as I've been a Christian, I can't imagine following Christ "separate" from this aspect.

[Pockey]

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Nicodema said:

Re outgoing people -- there's this bunch at a church I started going to recently (in the past couple months) who, after I'd been there like 3 times, invited me to come sit with them, come to the home of one of them that evening to watch a movie, etc. I did, that first night. We watched "Pirates of the Carribbean". It was OK, but I felt a little "squicked" watching the scenes with the supernatural stuff in it. It made me feel dirty. I didn't complain though. But they were going to spend the next several Sat. nights watching the LoTR trilogy & I just didn't feel like doing that. So I didn't go. I said I just wasn't really into LoTR but to let me know what else they planned to do after that and I might come over again. Since then they have been kind of "distancing" themselves from me it seems. I don't know if that's my imagination or my keen "sixth sense" (for pattern recognition I mean), to tell you the truth. I just feel like maybe they've "cooled off" toward me and aren't so keen on including me anymore. Plus I went through another vortex period 2/22 through 3/3 and I honestly don't know if I did something or not, i.e. if it showed, if I acted strangely in front of them, because I'm just "not all there" during those times. I don't know any of them well enough to talk about this directly with them though. I guess we'll just see what happens. <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

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I feel for you. That annoys me what happened to you.

[Bravus]

I do know that sometimes small groups are seen as a 'one size fits all' solution though. I know for us, with our family and the kids the age they are, with music lessons and a bunch of other commitments, a weeknight meeting is difficult. But it's more than that - our family is our small group, and meets those needs. Yet our pastor keeps pushing small groups as THE single solution, and makes any member who is not involved feel guilty. Different solutions for different people: maybe we'll learn that lesson before Jesus comes back...

[Nicodema]

Amen Bravus (different solutions for different needs)!

And thanks Sid. I don't know if I'm going to go back to that church or not. The pastor was kind of ... I don't know ... he kind of bothered me. There were a couple of strange incidents that left me with a really uncomfortable feeling. On the one hand, he seems to have some really interesting Bible insights and enjoys digging deeper ... but on the other hand ... well ... I can't describe or explain it. He just acts "funny" toward me. I kind of expect that from people who know my background, but ... I didn't tell him my background ...