The Close of Probation, I

[B/W Photodude]

I often struggled with the thief in the night description of the return of Jesus,
especially since Scripture also says He will come with great glory and every eye
will see Him. Then it occurred to me that His coming is a process that includes the
close of probation! So, like when you wake up in the night to find a burglar
standing at the foot of your bed, he has already been in your house for sometime and
broke into your house when you did not even know it. Similarly, when probation
closes, no one will know on earth except perhaps some to whom God choses to share
the moment with. He has been known to reveal His secrets to His servants in the past.

[JoeMo]

Hey Dude,

In your post, you mentioned that in the case of finding a literal thief in your home, you know the time of "home security probation" is over.  Likewise, I doubt that "spiritual probation" will close until until we see the Lord coming in the clouds.  I'm a little "out of the envelope" in the sense that I believe that Jesus will come in the clouds to gather His elect; then the 7 last plagues will be unleashed, and then Jesus returns with His holy ones (angels and saints) to set up the millennial kingdom here on earth.  Probation will be over at the time the 7 last plagues are unleashed.  Everyone who is "saved" at that time will be in the air with the Lord; so the only ones left on earth are the unsaved; who are subject to destruction.  Just my current opinion; not a salvational issue.  Plus, I reserve the right to change my mind at any time.

[8thdaypriest]

6 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Hey Dude,

In your post, you mentioned that in the case of finding a literal thief in your home, you know the time of "home security probation" is over.  Likewise, I doubt that "spiritual probation" will close until until we see the Lord coming in the clouds.  I'm a little "out of the envelope" in the sense that I believe that Jesus will come in the clouds to gather His elect; then the 7 last plagues will be unleashed, and then Jesus returns with His holy ones (angels and saints) to set up the millennial kingdom here on earth.  Probation will be over at the time the 7 last plagues are unleashed.  Everyone who is "saved" at that time will be in the air with the Lord; so the only ones left on earth are the unsaved; who are subject to destruction.  Just my current opinion; not a salvational issue.  Plus, I reserve the right to change my mind at any time.

In the OT type, probation did not "close" for individual Israelites, or the nation collectively, UNTIL the high priest entered the Most Holy Place on the Day of Atonement.  I personally believe that Christ will fulfill the ancient Day of Atonement prophecy, at the END of this age.  He will go before the heavenly "court" (Daniel 7:9-10).  He will EXIT the Most Holy Place, having received "dominion" of earth, and will immediately return in glory for His redeemed people. 

Hence I believe the "close of probation" will coincide with the Second Coming.  I believe that Christ will ENTER and EXIT the "heavenly court" on the same earth "day". 

Concerning the 7th millennium:

I'm mostly with Joe, but believe the redeemed will go with Christ to the City ("place") He has prepared.  The redeemed will remain in the Heavenly realm for most of the 7th millennium.  Satan and His evil ones will be imprisoned on earth - which has become "the uninhabited place" (humanly speaking). 

The redeemed may perhaps return at the half-way mark (The Day of Atonement was half way through the year, and the Day of Atonement in the 49th year marked the start of the Jubilee, when each man returned to "his inheritance".)   I am of the opinion that we will need much healing time, and earth will need some healing time.  If all the nukes are exploded in a planet wide war, the radiation will need to "cool down" for many years.  I know - Jesus could heal it very quickly.  But I think it would make a stronger point if the LORD allowed natural processes to "heal" things. 

[B/W Photodude]

I think I will stick to the historical Seventh-day Adventist chain of events in
eschatology as discerned by the early church pioneers. While there may be a bit of
confusion about some minor points relative to the Ottoman Empire, most of it (Daniel
& Revelation by Uriah Smith) lines up well with the Bible. Also, as many of the
early pioneers studied their Bibles and came to their opinions, they were often
confirmed by the visions of EGW. While many in the church today are "falling away",
if you will, I am not impressed by many of the theories that have been devised to
take the place of the early pioneers conclusions. This does not mean I am not open
to new ideas, but a serious restructuring is something I will immediately dismiss
with a serious compelling demonstration from the Bible and I do not see that
happening. Understandings not available prior can be interesting and it is not like
I have heard some very interesting concepts presented from the pulpit by SDA pastors.

In the meantime, riddle me this, for the Anti-deluvian people, when did their
probation end?

Quote

Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give
every man according as his work shall be.

I do not accept the the end of probation is going to be when Jesus is arriving from
heaven and the verse from Revelation indicates He has already judged the world. BTW,
the righteous who will go to heaven are not judged as they are not under
condemnation (or judgement, the same Greek word). So, His reward He has with Him.

Many have problems with the 2300 day prophecy, that is not really my problem. I
accept that the Most Holy part of the Sanctuary started in 1844, as discerned by the
early pioneers.

Complicating everything, is that many theories about the sequence of events were
devised ind the early reformation period, and some even by Catholic monks,
specifically to confuse the issues when the students of the Bible began serious
Bible study. And as a result, there is now serious confusion throughout Christendom
regarding endtime events. 

[B/W Photodude]

Grrrr! Wish we could edit!

This does not mean I am not open to new ideas, but a serious restructuring is
something I will immediately dismiss with a serious compelling demonstration from
the Bible and I do not see that happening.

Should have read:

This does not mean I am not open to new ideas, but a serious restructuring is
something I will immediately dismiss without a serious compelling demonstration from
the Bible and I do not see that happening.

[Samie]

3 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

This does not mean I am not open to new ideas, but a serious restructuring is
something I will immediately dismiss without a serious compelling demonstration from
the Bible and I do not see that happening.

Is the alternative eschatological chart I posted here and the events surrounding the Second Coming I posted here WITHOUT a serious demonstration from the Bible?  If your answer is Yes, can you please explain why?

[B/W Photodude]

15 hours ago, Samie said:

Is the alternative eschatological chart I posted here and the events surrounding the Second Coming I posted here WITHOUT a serious demonstration from the Bible?  If your answer is Yes, can you please explain why?

Looked at your charts and found what are to me errors. Are these charts of your own creation and if not, where did they come from? Pretty much everyone that creates an end time chart includes some Bible verses to try and find support for their version. 

From what I have seen, pretty much everything you have posted that I have read does not match what I find in the Bible and other SDA writings. So, I would suggest a careful study of "Great Controversy" and "Daniel and Revelation" along with other SDA type books on Bible prophecy.

[JoeMo]

Dude,

Why do we need to study EGW's writings for a proper perspective of the end times?  Isn't scripture good enough?  Although I don't agree with Samie on certain things, he and I have most certainly and independently arrived at a common POV on eschatology.  No dissing EGW here - I believe she had the visions that she claims to have had.  She just interpreted the visions incorrectly.  The spiritual gifts of interpretation and discernment are not the same as the gift of prophecy.  Her historicist/preterist POV does not make sense in light of scripture, which definitely places seals, trumpets, beasts, etc. in the future.  Whether or not Samie's chart is his own creation or that of other post millennial eschatologists, I have seen similar charts by many evangelical and fundamental Authors.  They make more sense from both a scriptural and a logical standpoint than the scenario presented by Mrs. White.  I will always choose scripture over any denominational sentiment.

[LifeHiscost]

7 hours ago, JoeMo said:

 They make more sense from both a scriptural and a logical standpoint than the scenario presented by Mrs. White.  I will always choose scripture over any denominational sentiment.

If that reasoning had been followed 2000-4000 years ago, there would be no Holy Bible for our use today.

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

 

[B/W Photodude]

 

JoeMo wrote:

Quote

Why do we need to study EGW's writings for a proper perspective of the end times?

As has been stated over and over again, much of the viewpoints and beliefs of the
Seventh-day Adventist church were developed out of groups of Bible students
seriously studying Scripture. This includes many of the end time events. Hence, the
invitation to study the writings of Uriah Smith and other writers for additional
insights into Biblical understanding. There is a considerable wealth of writers in
Bible topics other than Ellen White.

And again, Ellen White did not invent the Seventh-day Adventist church. She was one
of many founders, albeit an important one.

 

JoeMo wrote:

Quote

No dissing EGW here - I believe she had the visions that she claims to have had. 
She just interpreted the visions incorrectly.  The spiritual gifts of interpretation
and discernment are not the same as the gift of prophecy.

This doesn't make sense. You seem to be suggesting that God chose Ellen White, gave
her visions, and allowed them to be misinterpreted. Since you seem to be implying
that someone with gifts of interpretation and discernment should have been revealing
the meanings of her visions, who should have been the interpeter of her visions?

 

JoeMo wrote:

Quote

They make more sense from both a scriptural and a logical standpoint than the
scenario presented by Mrs. White.

What make sense to one, may not make sense to another. Generally, when I find
criticism and/or putdowns of Ellen White, I no longer find any reason to keep
listening to them. (This is usually more of a real life situation where you can
sense the hostility towards Ellen White as you then have the additional ability to
make use of non-verbal input. Online, it takes a more strident black & white writing
that leaves no room for any other understanding.) And, it does become easy to find
holes in these alternative views where they misinterpret Scripture. Sometimes, they
even lose any realistic logic.

[JoeMo]

16 hours ago, LifeHiscost said:

If that reasoning had been followed 2000-4000 years ago, there would be no Holy Bible for our use today.

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

 

That all depends on what you consider to be the veracity of the inspiration of the writers.  Personally, I believe that the prophets of old were more inspired and authorized by God than was EGW.  In the OT, people were actually chosen by God and anointed a official "prophets".  In other words, the gift of prophecy was concentrated rather than distributed asa gift of the Spirit to the church (not to specific individuals).  OT prophets admitted - even emphasized - that they were prophets.  Ellen White DENIED that she was a prophet.  It is the White Estate and the denomination who have declared her to be a prophet in spite of her denial.  I'll take her word that she was not a prophet; and her direction that, if we see a conflict between her writing and scripture, to hold scripture above her writings.

It is not EGW's fault that so many people hold her writings equal to scripture - it is the White Estate and the denomination that has promoted her to be our own little infallible Pope.

[JoeMo]

Hey Dude,

Even though I may not believe as you do, I really appreciate the thought and insight that you bring to your posts.  I also appreciate that you never seem to make it "personal".

Blessings to you.

[LifeHiscost]

1 hour ago, JoeMo said:

 

It is not EGW's fault that so many people hold her writings equal to scripture - it is the White Estate and the denomination that has promoted her to be our own little infallible Pope.

I'll take her word that she was not a prophet; and her direction that, if we see a conflict between her writing and scripture, to hold scripture above her writings.

David the king, married Bathsheba and then tried to cover it up by murdering her husband. Do you also dismiss the psalms as ordained of God, with deserved allegiance to follow? Just asking?

¹⁶ For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. ¹⁷ For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.....John 3

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

[JoeMo]

LHC,

If it's in the Bible, I believe it.  However, I fail to see what your questions have to do with EGW's ideas on the close of probation???

[LifeHiscost]

7 hours ago, JoeMo said:

LHC,

If it's in the Bible, I believe it.  However, I fail to see what your questions have to do with EGW's ideas on the close of probation???

EGW referred to herself as a messenger of God, if I'm not mistaken. To assume that one must be without fault in order to be used and believed by and for God's purposes is slighting God, not the tool He chooses to use. Never have I regretted following His instruction to her, for the benefit of the remnant body of Christ, in the 50 years I've place confidence in her instructions for His bride.

  In reviewing our past history, having traveled over every step of advance

to our present standing, I can say, Praise God! As I see what God has wrought, I am filled with astonishment, and with confidence in Christ as leader. We have nothing to fear for the future, except as we shall forget the way the Lord has led us, and His teaching in our past history. {CET 204.1}   

God is Love!~Jesus saves!      

 

[Bert]

The main focus on this thread started with 'The Close of Probation' above and has turned into a discussion of Mrs. White's credentials as a writer and leader of the early Adventist church. My purpose here is to provide biblical exegesis to the graph by Samie in regard to the 2300 days/years prophetic period. Here are the main errors in this graph:

1. The time period that the 2300 days prophecy starts is missing, and is the same time period that the 70 weeks, or 490 days/years, prophecy starts. Daniel 9:24 says, "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy." (KJV) So lets dissect this verse. The word 'determined' in the concordance means 'to cut off', so the 490 years must be 'cut off', but from what? The 2300 year prophecy is the only prophetic time period that accommodates the 490 year prophecy as there are other time periods included in the 2300 years as well. Continuing the dissection of verse 24, we find that the entire 490 years pertains only to Israel ('Daniel's people') and to Jerusalem ('Daniel's holy city'). The verse continues and lists all of the missions the Israelites were to accomplish (and they didn't), with the last one being 'to anoint the most Holy', which would be the anointing of Christ at His baptism as He starts His earthly ministry. Then verse 25 provides the time of the start of the 490 years and is when the 'commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem', and that is about 457 BC (Ezra 7 provides that information and can be researched to find the 7th year of Artaxerxes' reign).

2. Addition of the two time periods...add 70 weeks or 490 years to the 1335 years and it makes a total of 1825 years, 475 years short of the 2300 years.

3. There is no starting time period for the 1260 year prophecy (42 months) prophecy displayed, and there is no reference as to what occurs during the 1260 years, or when it starts.

4. There are other errors of contextual meaning in some of the scriptures referenced.  

[Gustave]

Close of probation??? When the "full measure" is reached God will come and when He comes is THAT what you mean?

If it is that's an odd way of saying

[Gregory Matthews]

I agree with the following quote:

It is not EGW's fault that so many people hold her writings equal to scripture . . . ..

[B/W Photodude]

I think there is a bit of misuse or a lack of a clear understanding of the word "prophet."

Quote

prophet - (dictionary.com)
1.
a person who speaks for God or a deity, or by divine inspiration.
2.
a person chosen to speak for God and to guide the people of Israel:
5.
a person regarded as, or claiming to be, an inspired teacher or leader.
6.
a person who foretells or predicts what is to come:
a weather prophet; prophets of doom.
7.
a spokesperson of some doctrine, cause, or movement.

 

While Ellen White did not claim the title of prophet, she did claim the title of
"Messenger".

Quote

messenger
1.
a person who carries a message or goes on an errand for another, especially as a matter of duty or business.

 

Looking thru the definitions of prophet, you could make the case that she was a prophet,
regardless of her not claiming it herself. In fact, I suspect that any student of
Scripture and who has an abiding relationship with God could be called a prophet. All you
really need to do is read the word of God, be taught of the Spirit, and make a statement
about the future and you are a prophet! In fact, nearly every person I meet today and
discuss the world situation prophesies that the end is near!

In the days of Elijah in Israel, there were schools of prophets. What is a prophet but one
who speaks for God. I suspect that every pastor who gets up and preaches on Sabbath
morning is a prophet. Unfortunately, and that is beyond the scope of this thread, some are
false prophets.

The Apostle Paul even stated that one should especially desire the gift of prophecy. Note
how his statement is handled by several different translations:

Quote

1 CORINTHIANS 14:1 

AMP    Pursue [this] love [with eagerness, make it your goal], yet earnestly desire and
cultivate the spiritual gifts [to be used by believers for the benefit of the church], but
especially that you may prophesy [to foretell the future, to speak a new message from God
to the people].

CJB    Pursue love! However, keep on eagerly seeking the things of the Spirit; and
especially seek to be able to prophesy.

DLNT    Be pursuing love. Now be zealous-for the spiritual gifts, but even-more that you
might be prophesying.

ERV    Love should be the goal of your life, but you should also want to have the gifts
that come from the Spirit. And the gift you should want most is to be able to prophesy.

GW    Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially the gift of speaking what
God has revealed.

KJV    Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

TLB    Let love be your greatest aim; nevertheless, ask also for the special abilities the
Holy Spirit gives, and especially the gift of prophecy, being able to preach the messages
of God.

 

So, it is time to lay the "was she" or "wasn't she" a prophet to rest. One of the
definitions of "prophet" is a person regarded as a prophet. And it is quite obvious that
many in the SDA church consider Ellen White to be a prophet.

[JoeMo]

In the sense that EGW did indeed speak for the Lord, I don't believe she did so 100% of the time.  I would opine that Paul and Peter were also prophets.  They were convinced that Jesus would return "soon" as in within their lifetimes.  He didn't.  Does that invalidate the fact that they spoke for the Lord?  EGW was among those who were committed that Jesus' second coming would be in 1844.  He didn't.  Was her "prophecy" in error or was she not yet commissioned as a prophet?  She prophesied that the RCC and papacy would be the end-time beast/antichrist in an era where it was fashionable to persecute the RCC.  Here we are, over 100 years later; and I don't see bands of marauding Catholics running around the world beheading people and causing general chaos around the planet.  There is another religion that is already doing that quite effectively.

I do believe the close of probation is a real deal.  However, I believe it occurs immediately before the 7 bowls of God's wrath fall on the earth.  I also believe probation closes because all of the "true believers" will have been translated off of the planet so they don't have to endure God's end-time wrath.  Everyone who remains on the planet (at least in the Middle East and surrounding areas) will have chosen to reject Yahweh and worship the beast/antichrist; so in a sense, they will have closed their own probation.

"I believe" does not imply that I think those of you who have a different opinion are wrong - you just believe differently than I do about the events leading up to the second coming (like the timing of the close of probation).  I also believe that prophecy is intentionally sufficiently vague that none of us really "know what's gonna happen until it starts to happen.  It was so vague in the Old Testament that the spiritual powers of the time were unaware that if Jesus died and was resurrected, they would be doomed; and the victory of grace and mercy over evil, sin, and death would be certain. (See 1 Cor. 2:8).  Eschatology could very well be equally as vague.

[phkrause]

8 hours ago, JoeMo said:

EGW was among those who were committed that Jesus' second coming would be in 1844.  He didn't.  Was her "prophecy" in error or was she not yet commissioned as a prophet?

EGW did not prophecy(sp) that Jesus would come in 1844!! As far as I recall, she was not a messenger of the Lord as of yet! So her so-called prophecy was not in error!

8 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Here we are, over 100 years later; and I don't see bands of marauding Catholics running around the world beheading people and causing general chaos around the planet.

I also believe that nowhere does she state that Catholics will be running around and beheading anyone!

[Gregory Matthews]

Photodude has given us some definitions of the word "prophet" as used in the English language.

None of those meet the Biblical definition of the word.

 

[GayatfootofCross]

It is my understanding (lensing the OP topic thru A Relational Non Condemning JESUS)

That the sealing has more to do with our hearts being won over 100% in His Love for ourselves and others.

We will be safe to take to heaven and showcased to the universe! The Mystery of GOD! CHRIST IN YOU! Colossians 1:27

[JoeMo]

11 hours ago, phkrause said:

nowhere does she [EGW] state that Catholics will be running around and beheading anyone!

Maybe true; but Revelation has a lot to say about people being beheaded.  Take EGW's "prophecies" about Catholicism and blend it with Revelation, you get Catholics beheading people.

[B/W Photodude]

13 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Real life events tell me that it wont be quite what we are expecting.

For God's people, it will not be like a thief in the night. Before Elijah was translated, everyone knew he was going. Students from the schools of the prophets followed him and Elisha as far as the Jordan River to see him go up. EGW says the saved will hear God tell them the day/hour of their deliverance, but it will sound like thunder to the wicked.