Good-bye, Sinful Nature?

[John317]

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David Koot said:

I would like to share on this thread, the post which raised questions about this issue for me, from a different thread:

"You are quite right in saying Jesus Christ did not have a propensity, or tendency, to sin. But then neither do we have to continue having the propensity to sin. Through the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit, we also may overcome sin just as Jesus overcame sin. There have been many people who have overcome sin and no longer lived with the propensity to sin: Enoch, Elijah, Moses, John the Baptist, Peter, John the Beloved, etc. Those who are sealed with the seal of God and live through the time of trouble to see Jesus return will also overcome sin as Jesus did and no longer have the propensity to sin but will be so settled into the truth that they, like Jesus, can't be moved.

Christ didn't need to be "born again," or "born from above," as all other humans need to be in order to see the kingdom of God (John 3:3). Before he emerged from his mother's womb, Christ was already under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. He was Holy from the start. Jesus' propensity, or tendency, was to obey His Father. That was Jesus' "bent."

On the other hand, before we are born again, our tendency is to disobey or rebel against God. We gain the tendency, or propensity, to obey God when we experience the second birth through the Holy Spirit.

Jesus did come as the second Adam. That is, Jesus came to replace Adam as the federal head of humanity, the Representative Man-- showing what God's ideal for mankind is and showing what man is capable of becoming.

However, none of the above necessarily means that Jesus did not have a fallen nature. After all, Enoch had a sinful nature, yet he overcame sin and got to the point where he no longer had the propensity to sin. God has provided the way for us to have the same experience today."

As I read this, it got me to thinking. It is not what I pesonally have believed, in the past. But, surely it is worth examining. How about it? Any thoughts about the above quote?

David Koot

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Even though Jesus Christ as a man did not have a single evil, sinful propensity, yet Jesus was born with a fallen, sinful nature like his ancestor David, and like his mother, Mary.

Is the fact that we, unlike Christ, are born with sinful propensities to disobey God offer us an excuse to sin? No. Why not?

Please consider the following: "We need not retain one sinful propensity... As we partiake of the divine nature, hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong are cut away from the character, and we are made a living power for good..." (7 BC 943). It would be helpful to read that entire page as it contains much that is of importance for understanding the subject we're discussing here.

Ellen White wrote that "Jesus alone can strengthen" us "to fully overcome" our "evil propensities." (5 T 335) But she also never ceased to remind her readers of the daily spiritual battles against temptations they must wage.

Without question we will have sinful natures and temptations and sin to resist right up to the moment that we are translated at the Second Coming.

But will we be sinning at that time? No. "When He [Christ] leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor" (GC 614). Those who are translated will have "fully overcome their evil propensities" through "Christ alone". We, like Enoch before his translation, will fully reflect the likeness of Christ (PP 89).

"Satan could find nothing in the Son of God that would enable him to gain the victory. He had kept His Father's commandments, and there was no sin in Him that Satan could use to his advantage. This is the condition in which those must be found who shall stand in the time of trouble." (GC 623) Jim

[John317]

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David Koot said:

On another thread, pertaining to the 28 Fundamental Beliefs of SDA's, someone suggested that those who are ready to meet Jesus will have overcome every sinful propensity, and will partake of the character of Christ so that those sinful propensities are actually gone from the life. Is that true? Or, will believers struggle with sinful propensities until the day Jesus returns?

David Koot

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David, I am sure you are talking about something I said in an earlier message, but you misunderstand me if you think I was saying people won't have sin and temptations to resist right up to the day Jesus returns. It seems to me you are using "sinful propensities" the same way we use sinful nature but that is not how Ellen White used it and it is not how I am using it. Please look up "propensities" in the Ellen White Index and study the references there.

Both the Bible and the writings of Ellen White assure us that God is fully able to help us overcome every sin, including sinful propensities and hereditary tendencies (1 John 1: 5 to 2:6; 3:1-10; Jude 24 and 2 Peter 1: 3-9). By the power of the Holy Spirit, we can overcome just as Jesus Christ overcame. When it comes to overcoming and resisting sin, Christ didn't use any power that we don't have. Jim

[Robert]

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John317 said:

We need not retain one sinful propensity

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You must let EGW define "sinful propensity":

"Temptations from without find an answering chord within the heart, and the feet turn imperceptibly toward evil." [MAR 91]

If you take two perfectly tuned pianos and press one key, the other will automatically respond. In other words she is equating an answering chord to sinning.

As to her other statements:

"We need not retain one sinful propensity . . . . As we partake of the divine nature, hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong are cut away from the character....[FLB 23]

Note that she said "character" not nature. She is speaking of habitual sins that are automatic like "an answering chord".

[Robert]

I see some contradictions in EGW writings:

We can never see our Lord in peace, unless our souls are spotless. We must bear the perfect image of Christ. Every thought must be brought into subjection to the will of Christ....We shall never attain to this condition without earnest effort. [RH 5-30-82]

So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins [habitual sins] to overcome; so long as life shall last [i.e., until our dying day], there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained [i.e., "I am sinless"].[AA 560]

He who says, "I am holy, I am sinless," is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, "I am Christ." To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption. [RH 9-25-00]

I agree that "sinful propensities" [defined as "habitual sins"] can be overcome, but to say we must be spotless contradicts her “other” statements.

[John317]

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Robert said:

I see some contradictions in EGW writings:

We can never see our Lord in peace, unless our souls are spotless.

We must

bear the perfect image of Christ. Every thought must be brought into subjection to the will of Christ....

We shall never attain

to this condition without earnest effort. [RH 5-30-82]....

I agree that "sinful propensities" [defined as "habitual sins"] can be overcome, but to say we must be spotless contradicts her “other” statements.

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Have you considered the possibility that, as with the Bible, when there appears to be a contradiction, the problem is with our understanding? In this case, it may be your understanding of "spotless." What do you think is meant by that word in this context, and have you researched how Ellen White used it to see if your definition is in harmony with her use of it?

By "spotless," she means sins that the person has let go of and is not hanging onto-- sins that are forgiven and overcome. She doesn't mean the person is no longer tempted or no longer struggles against sin.

It's important to remember that as soon as God helps us to overcome one sin, He will show us yet another sin that we must overcome. That is why until the Second Coming, we will never come to the point where we can say we've "arrived," or are "sinless." However, God sees us as "perfect in Christ," and He treats us just as if we had never sinned, because we are set right with, or justified by, the blood of Christ through faith in Him. So we are "spotless" both by means of justification and by sanctification by faith. In this context, you might study Revelation 22:14, as both the KJV and the NIV give it. "Keeping the commandments" and "washing their robes" are the same thing. Those who have a right to the tree of life are "spotless," as are the 144,000 of Rev. 14:5. Compare Rev. 3:4,5, 18; 7:9, 14; 14:4, 5. Jim

[Robert]

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John317 said:

So we are "spotless" both by means of justification and by sanctification by faith.

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We are saved entirely by what Christ did some 2000 years ago, accepted by faith. Sanctification has no merit....It is something experienced.

[Raphael]

Dear Seventh Day Adventisters,

The very exact split second one ends a prayer of forgiveness inspite of any concievable condition or circumstance he or she may be in ... abracadabra ... spotless shalt thou be (I think it has a literal meaning)... and don't forget ... to sin no more ...

Some consider forgiveness to be the greatest act or greatest miracle done by God. I think so.

I heard a tv charismatic preacher saying that if God was willing to forgive you to the extent that he had to die for you ... why yea of little faith, that God would not provide thy needs. I guess the preacher was trying to boost people's faith, but I think that I still agree with what he said.

God was not trying to be nice when He said He had forgiven you. It was literal and most incredible. Yes, in a way, its easiest to be spotless. Keeping the spotlessness is, was, will be the exasperation.

I think I seem to get the gist of the meaning of this mentioned evil propensities .. that is that that still conquers us every once in a while ... right? If it doesn't conquer it would almost never be thought of by any of us. You see, I too do have those kinds of episodes.

What then keeps us on going? ... must be due to the survival instincts to live or survive (tv discovery channel languagge); the Holy Spirits unceasing proddings on our hearts and conscience (current Sabbath School Lesson language).

But that can be a torture, just to live for the sake of surviving or living.

As for me .. I think that I find (eventually/finally found) God to be real, very real. Can't say for others, ones got to experienc it themselves. That ... somehow gets my senses back on a firmer grip on reality .. every once in a while. Ofcourse there is growth and changes but there are certain areas that may be more resilient or stubborn in nature and that would need more patience and even tact.

Moses in his final stages gave in to seemingly trivial evil propensities. Fortunately immediate repair witout further delay was done .. It is, was, will only be by Gods grace of help through forgiveness that one can win. You could see it from a different angle by saying that one was save from unconsciously crediting oneself for success in salvation. Any way you may go with it would not change the outcame anyway .. that is victory.

God does not judge ones nature. God judges one's decisions. Though one's nature affects one's decisions.

How does one know he or she is forgiven? .. I think the bible says Faith. What's faith? Faith to me is witnessing something real and or tangible that you alone may witness and can't prove it publicly. It's like smelling fragrance, it's real, it's there, but you can't prove it publicly through any other way aside the direct experience of others smelling it. Faith is supposed not to be something you have to force yourself to believe in because it is already real, though only very personally.

God is love,

Raphael