The nature of the Holy Spirit

[8thdaypriest]

19 minutes ago, Gustave said:

The ONLY difference was that 'God' became man w/out ceasing to be God.

Christ did not refer to Himself as "HE" immediately after affirming The Father would send ANOTHER. You don't seriously expect any of us to accept that as valid reasoning?

 

 

20 minutes ago, Gustave said:

Like a "mini me", yeah, I'm thinking if you get a group of folks together and play act these lines out and watch the video afterwards you'll start to get red faced.

Gustave,

The use of insulting phrases, will not help to convince anyone here. 

[8thdaypriest]

3 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Even though God the Spirit appears from Genesis (1:2; 6:3) onward,

OF course "God the Spirit" appears from Genesis onward - BECAUSE "God is spirit" (John 4:24).  But why not quote the whole passage?

 John 4:21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 "You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." (NKJ)

In context WHO is the "Spirit God" worshipped by "the true worshipers"?  Answer:  "the Father" !

[8thdaypriest]

1 Corinthians 8:6 "yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist."

Shouldn't Paul have added "and one Spirit" by which or through which or some words like that?  But no - only the Father and the Son were needed to do it all. 

 

The Son of God "came forth from" God the Father.    (John 16:28 "I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father.")

The Son of God then acted as the AGENT of His Father, in creation, in mediation, and in redemption.  He will continue to act as the AGENT of His Father in judgment, and in restoration. 

 

[8thdaypriest]

3 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

After His resurrection Jesus again brought to the attention of the disciples the coming of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:49; Acts 1:4, 5, 8). The existence of the Holy Spirit as a divine person was revealed at this time, because the Holy Spirit had to be revealed as a divine person to explain how the redemptive work of Christ would continue after His ascension, simultaneously on earth and in the heavenly sanctuary (Heb. 8:1, 2).

The revelation of God’s trinitarian nature is disclosed not with the speculative purpose of revealing the nature of God but rather so that human beings may understand God’s redemptive acts in history. Christ's announcement makes it pretty clear that there is a Third Person to the Godhead; but nowhere is the claim made which tells us to pray to the Spirit, because thats not the role of the Spirit

"to explain HOW the redemptive work of Christ would continue after His ascension, simultaneously on earth and in the heavenly sanctuary"

Let's see.  How to explain the continuing work of Christ for His disciples - without the help of a THIRD divine being? 

Galatians 4:6  “And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, ‘Abba! Father!’” (NAS)
Paul said, “I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me” (Phil. 4:13).

Colossians 1:27 "To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."

Jesus Christ is directly acting upon the heart.  HOW does He do this?  God His Father filled Him with His own spirit.  Jesus said it Himself, in His last prayer.  "I in them, and You [Father] IN me" (John 17:  ).  This is HOW Jesus is able to act directly upon our hearts.  No third divine being is needed.  God the Father sends "the Spirit of His Son" to be with us and in us. 

God the Father has restored to His Son, the power to be omnipresent.  How?  It is a mystery - but it appears from the text that God the Father does it THROUGH Christ. 

John 17:23 "I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, (Joh 17:23 NKJ)

John 17:26 "And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them." (Joh 17:26 NKJ)

I do not believe that a THIRD divine being lives IN ME.  Rather Jesus lives IN ME. 

We all learned the nursery hymn, "Into my heart" "come into my heart Lord Jesus".  I still sign it. 

While on earth, Jesus said, "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works." (Joh 14:10)

Jesus did not hint that a third divine being dwelt in Him. 

If the Father could dwell IN Christ, then why cannot this same Father send the Spirit of His Son to dwell IN us?

[8thdaypriest]

Ephesians 4:6 “One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”

    How is The Father “in” you?   Answer: as "the Spirit of His Son"

[8thdaypriest]

    1 Corinthians 15:45 “And so it is written, ‘The first man Adam became a living being.  The last Adam [Christ] became a life-giving spirit.’”

Ephesians 4:10 “He that descended [into the grave] is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that He might fill all things.”

And HOW does Christ "fill all things"?  Answer:  as the "life giving spirit". 

[8thdaypriest]

Luke 12:12  “For the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.”

Mark 13:11  “But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.”
    
    [Compare a parallel passage.]  

    Matthew 10:19-20  “But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak;  for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.”

    The Spirit of the Father is poured out to us through Christ, and we "hear" the words of Christ.  He is our Teacher.  He has become the "life giving spirit". 

The readers of John's revelation were told to "hear what the Spirit says".  If you read those words of the Spirit - they ARE the words of Christ. 

[APL]

20 hours ago, Gustave said:

The anti-Trinitarian stuff we're reading here in this thread is all throw back from that early era of post Millerite dispersal.

So when do you save the "early era of post Millerite dispersal" happened?  What are the dates?  Do you include in the early ear post Miller, James White, JN Andrews, EJ Waggoner, Uriah Smith, Loughborough, and many others.  And the time space for early, would that be 1 year, 5 years, 50 years 75? 

 

[CoAspen]

I will admit that I am confused as to why this topic seems to be important. Christ told His followers, when asked what God was like, if you have seen me, you have seen My Father. So, to me, it would seem that the HS is not any different. The Bible says they are all of one purpose and mind. 

[JoeMo]

On 6/13/2017 at 10:58 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

If I am on the phone with Joe, is Joe not "with me".   I cannot literally "see" him, but I can hear his voice, and I can understand him.  The spirit is Jesus' way of communicating with us.  We have a built in "receiver" to hear him. The spirit of Christ is "with us" and "in us".  This is why Paul wrote, "Christ in me - the hope of glory".  He didn't say, "the Holy Spirit in me".  He said, "Christ in me". 

Good analogy.  I was reading a devotional by Rabbi Jon Cahn.  He pointed out that the Hebrew and Greek words translated as "spirit" or "Holy Spirit" in the Bible also means "breath" or "wind".  He also compares the influence of the Spirit to the influence of the wind (as does Jesus).  He proposes an experiment where one walks against a strong wind for a mile.  Then, turn around and walk with the wind for the return trip.  Which was easier? quicker?  Obviously, walking with the wind, since walking with the wind helps you reach your destination quicker and easier.  As it is in the natural world, so it is in the supernatural world.  If you walk against the Spirit/Wind, you will find your journey (to the Kingdom) much less productive, more difficult, and taking longer.  On the other hand, if you walk with the wind, your journey will be more productive, easier, and less time-consuming.  Even though the Spirit/Wind is impersonal, it can profoundly impact one's journey through life.

They give hurricanes personal names (used to be just female names); and they call them "she".  Does that mean they are animate objects or sentient beings?  Boats are frequently named after women; and given personality traits.  I've heard boat owners make comments like "she's a dependable old girl - I love her!".  Does that make the boat a sentient female being?

I'm not gonna say Trinitarians are wrong and I'm right;  I am saying that I seriously "question" the personhood of the Holy Spirit.  If - when I make it to the Kingdom - Jesus tells me that He disagrees with my opinion of the Holy Spirit, I will become an instant avowed Trinitarian!

[Gail]

48 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

I'm not gonna say Trinitarians are wrong and I'm right;  I am saying that I seriously "question" the personhood of the Holy Spirit.  If - when I make it to the Kingdom - Jesus tells me that He disagrees with my opinion of the Holy Spirit, I will become an instant avowed Trinitarian!

You know, why can't we use what we know from Scripture as a STARTING point instead of something that limits us? Is there a way we can go through the list that Wanderer posted and sit and wonder at God's gift to us?

I'm trying to find positives, not negatives.

[JoeMo]

11 minutes ago, Gail said:

You know, why can't we use what we know from Scripture as a STARTING point instead of something that limits us? Is there a way we can go through the list that Wanderer posted and sit and wonder at God's gift to us?

OK; I'll start.  I agree with everything on Wanderer's list.  I'm just saying that it doesn't take "Person" to do these.  I am in no way denying the existence of the Holy Spirit.  I'm not even "denying" the Spirit's existence or trying to limit the magnitude of its influence.  I'm just questioning the conventional view; that's all.  As a closet hippie, I still aspire to the statement "Question all the answers".

As far as using scripture as a starting point, I'm still waiting for a single Bible verse that is an example or a command to pray to or worship the Holy Spirit.  That would be a good starting point for me.

[8thdaypriest]

Mrs White used "it" - in reference to the Holy Spirit for 50 years.  The publishers went through and changed all the "it"s to "He"s after her death.  So when you are quoting her, we really cannot know whether this was one of those altered quotations. 

[8thdaypriest]

What is the Holy Spirit's NAME? 

[8thdaypriest]

Paul's standard greeting was "Grace to you and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ".   10 TIMES - Paul used this greeting to begin his letters. 

Why no greeting from the Holy Spirit?    I doubt Paul just forgot. 

[APL]

On 6/13/2017 at 1:47 PM, The Wanderer said:

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. (John 14:26)

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever (John 14:16)

Is it not odd that it is only the Father that sends and one has to ask the Father?  Is that because of this?  

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

You think?

It is not essential for us to be able to define just what the Holy Spirit is. Christ tells us that the Spirit is the Comforter, "the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father." It is plainly declared regarding the Holy Spirit that, in His work of guiding men into all truth, "He shall not speak of Himself." John 15:26; 16:13. {AA 51.3}

 

The nature of the Holy Spirit is a mystery. Men cannot explain it, because the Lord has not revealed it to them. Men having fanciful views may bring together passages of Scripture and put a human construction on them, but the acceptance of these views will not strengthen the church. Regarding such mysteries, which are too deep for human understanding, silence is golden. {AA 52.1}

SILENCE IS GOLDEN!  Hm...  You think?

[B/W Photodude]

Much of these discussions seem to go in circles. And it is a topic that is splitting churches with many members walking and losing their faith. Half of my church walked out years ago, and even though seemingly leaving because of a false belief, one former member exhibited quite a bit of hostility even with threats of violence.

We know little of the Holy Spirit, but we know enough. In fact, we only know enough about any of the Three as has been decided that we need to know. I have read many quotes in EGW writings admonishing us not to pry into God more than is revealed in Scripture. That said, there is a lot that people often do not even see. 

I find the statement regarding how the Holy Spirit will not talk of Himself as interesting. He seems to get little glory in the whole process of the salvation of people even though he is doing a lot of the work! There is a lesson there. People selfishly think if they do a lot they should be recognized. But I find that isn't the case. In fact, doing everything you should do is called your "reasonable service."

Sometimes I suspect that there are different understandings of the word Trinity and from one group to another it means something different. 

As far as the Holy Spirit not being an intercessor, I do not understand how that can be because even we can be intercessors for each other. It seems to be one of the duties of a priest of which we are also. "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." Revelation 1:6

For those looking for more info, and missed last quarters SS lessons, you can download the quarterly here:

http://ssnet.org/study-guides/lesson-archives/2010-2019/2017-q1-holy-spirit-and-spirituality/

The 4 week lesson on the Personality of the Holy Spirit may help in this discussion.

 

[Gustave]

On ‎6‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 9:58 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

Not necessarily.  That could be ANOTHER way for Christ to be WITH His disciples. 

There are two Greek words, both translated into English as "another".   Allos is specific - like another dime.    Heteros is non-specific - like another coin, or another book.  Guess which one Jesus used.  Yep.  The specific one.  Jesus was saying that the Father will send another ME.  

 

 

 

 

Your rubric is illogical.

Matthew 12, 32: And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

 

Different Person.

 

 

 

[JoeMo]

10 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

Much of these discussions seem to go in circles.

That is so true about many topics - grace vs. works is another one.  Futuristic vs. preterist/historicist view of eschatology is another.  The authority of EGW's writings is yet another.  Many of the topics discussed (including this one on the nature of the HS) are not - IMHO - salvational; they are just fun to discuss with others.  I like learning about other people's viewpoints - some have even influences my personal beliefs.  However, these discussions rarely if ever change anyone's beliefs.

It is sad to see these kind of differences splitting churches.  I remember back in the 1980's and 90's when so many churches split over the "new theology".   Independent ministries like Hope International, Steps to Life, Rolling Hills, etc. implying that the church MAY be Babylon.  Our own church in NM split over the legitimacy of these independent ministries.  I look back on those times now and think "what was the big deal"?

No matter what any of our opinions on these subjects are, we all are united in the fact that we want to spend eternity with our Heavenly Father and His Son, our Lord, Jesus.  I would bet that ANY of us - no matter what our current beliefs or opinions, would IMMEDIATELY "see the light" if Christ were to tell us that He disagrees with our opinion.

I'll tell you of an experience that changed me.  I had gone to a weekend workshop on spiritual healing and impartation at a charismatic church close by.  There were people speaking in tongues and being "slain in the Spirit" all over the place.  It didn't work on me at that time.  I though "what a bunch of hogwash!" The next day, I was on my lawn tractor remembering and chuckling at some of the stuff I saw.  I prayed; "God, if this is real, why couldn't you do it to me?"  The next thing I knew I was curled up in a ball 10 feet away from my tractor crying and shaking; and babbling under my breath.  I was a mess.  When I recovered, I asked Him to do it again so I could see if it was real.  He did - the same thing happened.  I suddenly had a new respect for charismatics.

Sorry for the rabbit trail.  

[8thdaypriest]

11 hours ago, jackson said:

Rachel, be careful when making such charges. You do not want to be guilty of bearing false witness. There are original manuscripts  that must be presented to show the veracity of such a claim as you have made. Do you have evidence that such changes were made?.Has anyone produced evidence that this was  done?

Some of EGW’s statements on the personage of the HS are compiled in the book Evangelism pp. 613-617.

There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers --the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--….-- Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905)  {Ev 615.1}

 The eternal heavenly dignitaries--God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit--arming them [the disciples] with more than mortal energy, . . . would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin.--Manuscript 145, 1901.  {Ev 616.4}

 We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds.--Manuscript 66, 1899. (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.)  {Ev 616.5} 

 The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."--Manuscript 20, 1906.  {Ev 617.1}   

 The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit.--Special Testimonies, Series A, No. 10, p. 37. (1897)  {Ev 617.2}

 We are to co-operate with the three highest powers in heaven,--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, --and these powers will work through us, making us workers together with God.--Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, p. 51. (1905)  {Ev 617.3}

 Of course, all these statements were printed before Mrs. White's  death and would take more than just changing "it" to "he" to alter her evolved  understanding on the matter.

i say evolved, and not changed or corrected, because  she never wrote a statement denying  the existence of  the third person of the Godhead.. It was just not shown to her clearly until her later years. But when she saw it clearly, she wrote about it  clearly. 

.

Jackson,  I am aware that Mrs White's teaching concerning the nature of the Holy Spirit CHANGED, most notably after 1895.  The quotes you just offered are all from after 1895. 

 

Jackson,

Why do you say such things? - "You do not want to be guilty of bearing false witness."  What a self righteous thing to say! 

You know that I DID four years of research into Mrs White's statements on the nature of God. 

My belief concerning the nature of the holy spirit did not change lightly.  I began my studies intending to show a friend that she was wrong, when she came to believe that the holy spirit was not a third divine being.  I did not want to believe it.  I read through Mrs White's published statements for hundreds of hours.  The change in her belief, concerning the nature of the holy spirit IS THERE.  Why it's there - the reason for it - is less clear. 

We are here on this forum, debating these issues because we do NOT WANT to give "false witness".  We all want to know what is true, so that we can teach that truth with confidence.   

And on this forum, we have all learned to include the words "in my opinion". 

Saul was forgiven, because he persecuted the saints "in ignorance".   May the same be said for those who teach error "in ignorance".

[8thdaypriest]

12 hours ago, jackson said:

Rachel, be careful when making such charges. You do not want to be guilty of bearing false witness. There are original manuscripts  that must be presented to show the veracity of such a claim as you have made. Do you have evidence that such changes were made?.Has anyone produced evidence that this was  done?

Some of EGW’s statements on the personage of the HS are compiled in the book Evangelism pp. 613-617.

There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers --the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--….-- Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905)  {Ev 615.1}

 The eternal heavenly dignitaries--God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit--arming them [the disciples] with more than mortal energy, . . . would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin.--Manuscript 145, 1901.  {Ev 616.4}

 We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds.--Manuscript 66, 1899. (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.)  {Ev 616.5} 

 The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."--Manuscript 20, 1906.  {Ev 617.1}   

 The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit.--Special Testimonies, Series A, No. 10, p. 37. (1897)  {Ev 617.2}

 We are to co-operate with the three highest powers in heaven,--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, --and these powers will work through us, making us workers together with God.--Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, p. 51. (1905)  {Ev 617.3}

 Of course, all these statements were printed before Mrs. White's  death and would take more than just changing "it" to "he" to alter her evolved  understanding on the matter.

i say evolved, and not changed or corrected, because  she never wrote a statement denying  the existence of  the third person of the Godhead.. It was just not shown to her clearly until her later years. But when she saw it clearly, she wrote about it  clearly. 

.

 

"After His inauguration, the spirit came and Christ was indeed glorified, even with the glory which He had from all eternity with the Father.  During His humiliation upon this earth, the spirit had not descended with all its efficacy; and Christ declared that if He went not away, it would not come, but that if He went away, He would sent it.  It was a representation of Himself, and after He was glorified it was manifest."  Signs of the Times May 17, 1899 pr.3

Mrs White also wrote: 

"The Holy Spirit is Himself, divested of the personality of humanity and independent thereof.  He would represent Himself as present in all places by His Holy Spirit, as the Omnipresent."  Manuscript Releases Volume Fourteen, pg.23-24

Which agrees with:  Galatians 4:6  "God has sent forth the spirit of His Son into your hearts." 

Which agrees with:  1 Corinthians 15:45  "And so it is written, 'The first man Adam became a living being.' The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." (NKJ)

[8thdaypriest]

10 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Whatever the Bible chooses to call Him. Scripture is clear on the differing roles:

The Holy Spirit will

1/ teach you all things (John 14;26)
2/ bring to your remembrance all that Jesus has taught you (John 14:26)
3/ He will bear witness about Jesus (John 15:26)
4/ convict the world concerning sin, judgment, righteousness (John 16:8)
5/ guide you into all truth (John 16:13)
6/ declare unto you things that are to come (John 16:13)
7/ glorify Jesus (John 16:14)
8) comfort you (Acts 9:31)
9) fill you (Acts 13:52)
10) pour God's love into our hearts (Rom 5:5)
11) bears witness that we are children of God (Rom 8:16)
12) helps us with our weakness (Rom 8:26)
13) intercede for the saints (Rom 8:27)
14) give us peace and joy (Rom 14:17)
15) give us hope (Rom 15:13)
16) give us "fruits" like love, joy, peace,patience, kindness, goodness, faithfullness (Gal 5:22)
17) give you "encouragement in Christ" (Phil.2:1)

It is of note that above somewhere you made the insistence that the Spirit NEVER intercedes, yet item #13 shows where the Bible disagrees with that.

 

It is Jesus Christ who does all these things, by means of HIS SPIRIT. 

[JoeMo]

2 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

There is plenty of scripture provided to show the Spirit's role in the plan of salvation

I can show you much about a Katrina's role in the devastation of New Orleans; and show you about Fat Boy's role in winning WWII.  But neither of those entities is a "person".  I'm just asking for ONE example in scripture where someone prays to the HS or where we are commanded to worship the Holy Spirit.

5 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

So now you are battling about a two letter word "it?" 

I guess so, if you wanna call it a battle. I still call it a debate or discussion - maybe worth having.  The difference between "He" and "it" has much influence on whether you infer something is a person or not.

[JoeMo]

3 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

I can show you much about a Katrina's role in the devastation of New Orleans; and show you about Fat Boy's role in winning WWII.  But neither of those entities is a "person".  I'm just asking for ONE example in scripture where someone prays to the HS or where we are commanded to worship the Holy Spirit.

I use the example of just one scripture because that's what it usually takes for me to convince JW's that Jesus is God.  There are several places in scripture where people worshiped (Jesus (and He accepted that worship) and other places where we are commanded to worship Him.  When posed with the question "who deserves our worship?" and "Was Jesus God; or was He a demonic charlatan for accepting worship?" For those JWs who are true seekers, sometimes that seals the deal.

All I ask is that someone show me in scripture the same things about the HS, and maybe you can persuade me to think differently.

[8thdaypriest]

59 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

So now you are battling about a two letter word "it?" 

It proves less than nothing here.

There is plenty of scripture provided to show the Spirit's role in the plan of salvation

Well.  How about the word "representation"?  A representation is not a representative.  One is inanimate the other is animate. 

4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

"After His inauguration, the spirit came and Christ was indeed glorified, even with the glory which He had from all eternity with the Father.  During His humiliation upon this earth, the spirit had not descended with all its efficacy; and Christ declared that if He went not away, it would not come, but that if He went away, He would sent it.  It was a representation of Himself, and after He was glorified it was manifest."  Signs of the Times May 17, 1899 pr.3

The "voice" you hear on the other end of a telephone line is not actually my voice.  It is an electronic/sound wave representation of my voice.  The image you see on the screen if you're using SKYPE, is not me.  It is an electronic representation of me.  But it conveys my message. 

1 John 1:3 "that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ." (NKJ)

Just another one of those verses which show us that the disciples believed in, and worshiped, and had fellowship with, two divine beings -  God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. 

In the NT we have fellowship with THE FATHER and with JESUS CHRIST.  We have this fellowship "through" the spirit, or "of" the spirit, or "by" the spirit.   But there is no mention of fellowship WITH the spirit.  

Another verse:

All “the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in the Father and the Son” (Col. 2:2-3). 

Shouldn't Paul have added, "and in the Spirit" IF indeed the Spirit is a third divine being?

Ephesians 5:20  “. . . giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ . . .”

The spirit is never thanked either.