The nature of the Holy Spirit

[Gail]

I am not sure that things can be compartmentalised to that extent. When Jesus said, "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you," (John 14), who is it that comes to us? When Jesus ascended, He was to send another Comforter, one called to be beside. Who is this Comforter- Jesus or the Spirit? The Comforter came because Jesus went away.

I see more unity in it than some, I suppose. But God in us IS unity. It is His way of keeping the connection between God and man. It is justification and sanctification together and how those are implemented.

[phkrause]

On 6/15/2017 at 3:33 PM, JoeMo said:

As far as using scripture as a starting point, I'm still waiting for a single Bible verse that is an example or a command to pray to or worship the Holy Spirit.  That would be a good starting point for me.

Why should we need to pray to the HS or worship the HS? I do not see the need! Also Jesus never said to pray to him, him meaning Jesus, he says to pray to his Father, "Dear Heavenly Father," in his name.

[APL]

The Saviour is our Comforter. This I have proved Him to be. {Ms20-1892}

1 Timothy 2:5 KJV For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

They have one God and one Saviour; and one Spirit--the Spirit of Christ--is to bring unity into their ranks. {9T 189.3}

Ellen White never used Trinitarian phrases such as, "God the Holy Spirit," "God the Spirit," "God the Son," "God in three persons," or "Trinity" in reference to the Godhead, "Triune God," "Co-equal" in reference to 3 gods, "Co-eternal," "Consubstantial," "First Person," "Second Person," and "Third person" while referring to a third god. Ellen White taught the third person was the Spirit of Christ.

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ, which is sent to all men to give them sufficiency, that through His grace we might be complete in Him. The Lord has provided that we should always be under the teaching and influence of the Holy Spirit. We shall then discover that the law of God is holy, just, and good, and we would learn to delight in the law of God. We love the requirements of the law, and from our hearts render obedience to its requirements. {14MR 84.3}

We want the Holy Spirit, which is Jesus Christ. If we commune with God, we shall have strength and grace and efficiency. {Lt66-1894}

... but it is the leaven of the spirit of Jesus Christ, which is sent down from heaven, called the Holy Ghost, and that Spirit affects the heart and the character. {Ms36-1891}

Christ has left His Holy Spirit to be His representative in the world, to give celestial aid to every hungering, thirsting soul. Heavenly inspiration is still imparted to men, and it is the work of those who have had light, to let light shine forth to those who are in darkness. {Lt84-1895}

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ; it is His representative. Here is the divine agency that carries conviction to hearts. When the power of His Spirit is revealed through the servants of God, we behold divinity flashing through humanity. When accompanied by the Holy Spirit, the presentation of truth as it is in Jesus will be of more value than all the honor or glory of the world. {13MR 313.3}

This refers to the omnipresence of the Spirit of Christ, called the Comforter. {Lt7-1891}

he work of the Holy Spirit is immeasurably great. It is from this source that power and efficiency come to the worker for God; and the holy Spirit is the Comforter, as the personal presence of Christ to the soul. {HM, November 1, 1893 par. 28}

What saith our Saviour? "I will not leave thee comfortless; I will come unto you." "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me; and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father; and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." When trials overshadow the soul, remember the words of Christ, remember that He is an unseen presence in the person of the Holy Spirit, and He will be the peace and comfort given you, manifesting to you that He is with you, the Sun of Righteousness, chasing away your darkness. "If a man loves me," Christ said, "he will keep my words, and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." Be of good cheer; light will come, and your soul will rejoice greatly in the Lord. {Lt124-1897

They have one God and one Saviour; and one Spirit--the Spirit of Christ--is to bring unity into their ranks. {9T 189.3}

Jesus alone has power to save from sin, to free from the power of evil; and to doubt him who has laid down his life for us, is to grieve and insult the Father, who has in one gift poured out all heaven to a lost world. {RH, February 10, 1891 par. 4}

In the following quote we find once again that God, His Son, and His Son's Spirit are the "three great powers" in Heaven. "Our sanctification is the work of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is the fulfilment of the covenant that God has made with those who bind themselves up with Him, to stand with Him, with His Son, and with HIS SPIRIT in holy fellowship. Have you been born again? Have you become a new being in Christ Jesus? Then co-operate with the three great powers of heaven who are working in your behalf." {ST June 19, 1901}

The Comforter is the Spirit of Christ,
the Spirit of truth is the Spirit of Christ,
the third person is the Spirit of Christ,
the third great power is the Spirit of Christ,
the third highest power is the Spirit of Christ,
the Holy Spirit given at Pentecost was the Spirit of Christ,
the Holy Spirit Jesus breathed on His disciples was His own Spirit,
the Holy Spirit Christ sent to represent Himself was His own Spirit,
the heavenly dignitaries are the Father, Son and Spirit of Christ,
the Heavenly trio is the Father, Son and Spirit of Christ,
and when we grieve the Holy Spirit it is the Spirit of Christ we grieve.

How do we know? Because each one of these is the Holy Spirit and "The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ."

Ellen White never rebuked the pioneers for their non-trinitarian teaching

Unlike some I do not believe or see that Ellen White never changed her view of the Godhead

Ellen White highly recommended the non-trinitarian book by Uriah Smith, "Daniel and Revelation"

Are there 3 beings to be worshiped?

Let the brightest example the world has yet seen be your example, rather than the greatest and most learned men of the age, who know not God, nor Jesus Christ whom he has sent. The Father and the Son alone are to be exalted. {YI, July 7, 1898 par. 2}

God and Christ alone know what the souls of men have cost. For our sakes the Son of God became poor, that we through His poverty might be made rich with eternal riches. His love has bought for us immeasurable grace. "His divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness," that we "with open face, beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord," may be "changed into the same image, from glory to glory." {ST, January 13, 1909 par. 8}

"And truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ." {RH July 13, 1905}

"The human family cost God and his Son Jesus Christ an infinite price." {SpTEd 21.1}

"In the plan to save a lost world, the counsel was between them both; the covenant of peace was between the Father and the Son." {ST, December 23, 1897}

"But in the transgression of man both the Father and the Son were dishonored." {ST, December 12, 1895}

"Father and Son are pledged to fulfill the terms of the everlasting covenant." {YI, June 14, 1900}

This is just scratching the surface. The nature of "the Spirit" is a mystery. What it is not, is not a mystery.

[8thdaypriest]

15 hours ago, APL said:

This is just scratching the surface. The nature of "the Spirit" is a mystery. What it is not, is not a mystery.

Thank you APL for all those quotations.  You printed some that I didn't have.  I will print them out to keep with the one copy I have left of my book "The Persons of God" which  I published back in 1996. 

I have not - so far - mentioned Ellen White on my website, prophecyviewpoint.com.  I prefer to teach from the Bible only.  Most folks "out there" don't even know who she was, so there is no point bringing up the controversies about her, on a website getting 9000+ visitors each month from many countries.

If you visit my website, you will find a whole section dedicated to the "Trinity" controversy.  My conclusion is that we worship God our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ.  

[8thdaypriest]

11 hours ago, jackson said:

The Holy Spirit always leads to the written word. The Holy Spirit is a person; for he beareth witness with our spirits that we are the children of God. When this witness is borne, it carries with it its own evidence. At such times we believe and are sure that we are the children of God. What strong evidence of the power of truth we can give to believers and unbelievers when we can voice the words of John, "We have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him."

Yes - the Holy Spirit IS "a person".  But which person?  The Holy Spirit IS Jesus - speaking to our minds/hearts.  Jesus is "a person", therefore His Spirit is "a person" speaking, and "a person" with us.

"The last Adam was made a life giving spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45).

The exact nature of "the Spirit" was and is "a mystery".  Just exactly how Jesus communicates with us, they could not understand, and we cannot understand, except to say - by "His spirit". 

But I think we CAN consider the evidence for what the Spirit is not.  He/It is NOT a third divine being, whom we should worship.  The spirit comforter is not worshiped, or glorified, or thanked.  It is not given any credit whatsoever, for the plan of salvation, or for the victory over Satan.  It is the "gift" given to us by God the Father, through Jesus. 

Twenty+ years ago, in church, I used to sing "Praise Father, Son and Holy Ghost" at the beginning of every service.  THAT is not Biblical.  There is no evidence whatsoever for offering praise to the Holy Ghost.  From what I've seen, even Mrs White never praised the Holy Spirit.  She confined her praise and thanks to God our Father and His Son.  She thanked them for "the gift of" the spirit. 

We cannot understand exactly HOW the LORD confused the language of those building the Tower of Babel.  We today can understand a "language program" for our computer, used to translate.  So maybe we are closer today - with our present technology, than they were back when Peter preached on Pentecost.  The miracles of God will always remain "a mystery", but we must - I believe - follow the teachings and the examples given us through the Word of God. 

There IS NO COMMAND, and there IS NO EXAMPLE, that we should worship a THIRD divine being called the Holy Spirit.  That is the crux of the matter - who we WORSHIP?  That is why this debate is important. 

[8thdaypriest]

"To Adam in his innocence was granted communion, direct, free, and happy, with his Maker.  After his transgression, God would communicate to man only through Christ and angels."  Signs of the Times January 30, 1879 pr.19

 

[8thdaypriest]

13 hours ago, jackson said:

 

 

13 hours ago, jackson said:

Rachel, it was you who said that Mrs White's writings were changed after her death. That is a serious charge and opens up doubt about all her writings . I think you should offer evidence before making such charges.. If you have evidence, then you have a right and duty to present the evidence and  speak as you have. If you are just passing on  what you heard or read from others, then it is not just error but may indeed be false witness if untrue. When you make  a statement that casts dispersion on the integrity of Mrs White's writings, it is your Christian duty to do "due diligence" to insure you are not just passing on a false rumor.

 

Most of the word alterations I saw, were in the 1996 devotional book "Ye Shall Receive Power" put out by Pacific Press.   All one had to do was look up the original reference sited.  Back in 1996, most folks did not have computers, much less the disc with her published statements.  Even the disc was incomplete back then.  They would not have spent the time to pull up the "original" published statements.   

Compare:

Ye Shall Receive Power, pg 33   - with - Manuscript Releases Volume 18, pg47-48

Ye Shall Receive Power, pg 59 - with - Signs of the Times, September 27, 1899

Ye Shall Receive Power, pg93 - with - Manuscript Releases Volume 12, pg 52-53

Ye Shall Receive Power, pg 105 - with - 1888 Materials pg 1537-1538  and  Manuscript Releases Volume 11, pg35

Ye Shall Receive Power, pg146 - with - North Pacific Gleaner, May 26, 1909 (Be sure to read the whole context.)

Ye Shall Receive Power, pg151 - with - Testimonies Volume Five pg 158

Ye Shall Receive Power, pg 164 - with - Special Testimonies for Ministers and Workers No.7, pg39 (Written March 30, 1896 @ Cooranbong NSW)

Ye Shall Receive Power, pg298 - with - Review and Herald, Nov 19, 1908  (Rather than copy the word "it", the publishers of YSRP substituted "the Spirit".)

Ye Shall Receive Power pg 321 - with - Testimonies to Ministers, pg64 

Ye Shall Receive Power, pg344 - with - Review and Herald, Feb. 10, 1903

Be sure to compare a 1996 copy of the Pacific Press publication. 

Sorry, I don't have the Manuscript Releases number or volume for all of these.  I think I've given enough rabbit trail for interested persons to follow.  I no longer own Volume 7 of the SDA commentary.  I finally gave away most of my EGW books a few years ago.  Most of them are available online now anyway.

After I stopped reading EGW, I was so very familiar with her writings, that it took a good 10 years before the words she wrote stopped coming to my mind every time I read a Bible passage.  Instead I began to "hear" (or think of ) other Bible passages that connected dots for me.  

I REALLY don't want to go back to dueling EGW quotes.  I want to debate using only the Bible (except for those very few verses which were altered long before King James).  

 

 

 

 

 

[LifeHiscost]

18 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

 

Most of the word alterations I saw, were in the 1996 devotional book "Ye Shall Receive Power" put out by Pacific Press.   All one had to do was look up the original reference sited.  Back in 1996, most folks did not have computers, much less the disc with her published statements.  Even the disc was incomplete back then.  They would not have spent the time to pull up the "original" published statements.    

 

 

 

 

 

Rachel, do you actually think that God would not provide a person/s for the end times even as He provided special messengers (prophets)  for important significant times in past biblical history?

You might find this of interest from another source that I have found inspiring.

God bless you.

 

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

[8thdaypriest]

LHC

I was familiar with Jonathan Cahn and The Harbinger. Not sure what you were trying to say, posting the video.  It was interesting, just not sure what it had to do with the topic on the nature of the Holy Spirit. 

[LifeHiscost]

The Wanderer 

    The reception of the Holy Spirit into the heart of the Christian believer cannot be conceived in independence from or contradiction with the truths as revealed in the Scriptures as a whole about Jesus and His role in our salvation.

Not to mention that no fallible human will fully grasp all there is to know of the divine.

  31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead...Luke 16

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

[debbym]

i spoke to a gentleman who spoke most fervently about the non person hood of the holy Spirit.  He was really enthusiastic about it, it meant a lot to him to have this new idea.  I was generally only concerned that however you wish to think about the presence of God, it is important how you respond and relate to the working of the Holy Spirit.  

i thought if we reason away the person of the Holy Spirit we could reason away the person of the Son, and then God would then just be a force in the universe that expressed in various ways at various times, but was only one individual.  I think there are god's of India that have many faces.  Some one suggests that to think of the Godhead in three parts diminishes the understanding of God, others would say it makes it more clear.

people can have many aspects of themselves, wear many hats, and express themselves in different ways and at different times.  We can wear many hats, yet remain one individual.  would we make God in our image?

This gentleman felt that if the Holy Spirit was specifically the immediate presence of  The Father... and not The Spirit as an individual,  he felt he was more intimate with God when he experienced the Holy Spirit, for he was in the immediate and direct presence of the Person of the Father, and he cherished this as being much more  intimate with God.

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

A person and a personal being are not the same.

 

[phkrause]

1 hour ago, debbym said:

This gentleman felt that if the Holy Spirit was specifically the immediate presence of  The Father... and not The Spirit as an individual,  he felt he was more intimate with God when he experienced the Holy Spirit, for he was in the immediate and direct presence of the Person of the Father, and he cherished this as being much more  intimate with God.

That's very interesting!!

[JoeMo]

LHC,

LOVED the Jonathan Cahn video!  Don't know what it had to do with the nature of the HS; but it was a great message.

[JoeMo]

I would respectfully submit none of us are going to change anyone's opinion on this subject.  As ironic as it may sound, I DO believe that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth - whether that is through God's word or supernatural experience - in this life or the next.  I'm convinced that I have been overwhelmed by the power of the Holy Spirit on a few occasions - dropped to the ground; surrounded by overwhelming glory.  It can actually be frightening.  But the thing is, is that I was overwhelmed by a POWER; not a PERSON.  That power was like an internet connection to the outer borders of God's glory.  But the Person there was God (Father , Son, or both); the Holy Spirit was simply the "circuit" that connected me to Them.  The Holy Spirit is the Real Deal; but it's not a Person.

I think sound arguments have been made on both sides here.  For me , the bottom line is that God is far beyond a mystery.  He is far beyond what we consider to be our wildest concepts of Him.  In this age, we can only get a dim view of Who He is.  In the coming Age, we will see Him as He is; and be amazed.  He is far more awesome that the most awesome awesomeness that we can possibly imagine.  We have an eternity to study the nature of God from the ultimate Teacher - God Himself.  As we scatter throughout the universe, we will be connected by the same Holy Spirit that connects us to Him now - only better.

[LifeHiscost]

On 6/11/2017 at 1:51 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

My personal take:

1.    There is no statement in Scripture that there are three coequal, coeternal divine beings (Triune God).  There is also no statement that God is one divine being who manifests in three ways - as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost (Trinitarianism).

 

If there is no God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, what then is the importance of this?

¹⁹ Go therefore^[a] and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit ....Matthew 28

Especially in light of this;

  16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness....2  Timothy 3

God is Love!~Jesus saves!  

 

[debbym]

we do not lose by understanding that  that the nature of the trinity is beyond our understanding.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Earlier, I stated that a person  and a personal being are not the same.  The Wanderer asked me to explain.  Well, I do not claim to have a good answer to that.  In dealing with the divine, I am not certain that I either have a good understanding or am capable of bringing others into a state of enlightenment on this issue.       But, I will give it a try.

To put it into a brief statement:  When we say that the HS is a person, we are stating, in effect that the HS is like us.  The word person is a very human term that we only understand in terms that relate to our human existence.

When we use the term "personal being" we are implying that there may be some aspects of that being that are similar to our humanity, but in the whole, the intrinsic structure of that personal being differs from that of us.  In actual effect, we could  say the same about God the Father.  but, due to the nature that Christ took on in the incarnation we might say that Christ is a person as long as we do not deny his deity.  

While the above is a brief statement, let us expand it both with a review of some of the Biblical  texts that may apply to this discussion of the nature of the Holy "Spirit.

1 Cor. 2:11  The HS has knowledge and will, Eph. 4:30  The HS has feelings,  John 14:26 The HS acts as a teacher, John 15:26 The HS testifies,  John 16: 8-11 The HS reproves, John 16:13 The HS acts as a guide, Acts 13:2 The HS speaks, Acts 16: 6 & 7 The HS leads, Acts 20:28 The HS acts in an authorative manner, Romans 8:26 The HS interceeds for us.  NOTE:  These are all aspects of personality.  Other verses along this same line include:   Hebrews 10:15 The HS is a witness, Acts 5:9 The HS may be  tested and lied to, 

The above listing does not include every Biblical text that may be used to suggest that's the Holy Spirit has some of the same attributes that we equate to human personhood in our existence.

When we suggest that the HS is not a person, but  is a personal being we deny the humanity of the essential nature and/or structure of the Holy spirit.  Rather, we suggest that the nature and/or structure of the Holy Spirit is beyond our human experience and consists in some manner of something that is beyond our human understanding.  I can not tell you what that is.  If I were told, I probably would not understand as it likely lies outside of our human existence and understanding.   

The Wanderer, this is about the best that I can do.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

In a response to JoMo The Wanderer raised the issue as to authority and the extent to which authority derives  from the Bible.  Ray C.W. Roennfeldt, In a paper titled "Justice & Equality: Is God Interested?" which was presented Saturday at the London Unity Conference (6/17/2017) raises an interesting point.  On page 11, of that paper, Roennfeldt introduces the "Wesleyan Quadrilateral," which suggests that there is a circle of authority which consists of Scripture, tradition, reason and experience.

NOTE:  In a post on this Unity Conference, I have given the  Internet source where the papers presented, may be accessed.

Citing Susan Elliott, Roennfeldt suggests that this approach does not subvert Scripture to a lessor role.  Rather, scripture remains the inerrant word of God, and the dominant position of tradition, reason and experience.   

In his closing paragraph, on page 14, of his paper Roennfeldt says:

Quote

Perhaps the "quadrilateral" of Scripture, tradition, reason, and experience will provide an interpretive key and that might assist in breaking the impasse.   And, the Acts 15 Jerusalem council may provide a model for  "doing" church; even for dealing spiritually and pragmatically with issues of church party politics!

 

[APL]

12 hours ago, LifeHiscost said:

If there is no God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, what then is the importance of this?

FOTAP - -The terms "God the Son" and "God the Holy Spirit" are not use in the Bible or in the writings of EGW.  WHO is it that gave us these terms? 

Is is written: 1 Corinthians 8:6 KJV But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

[LifeHiscost]

¹³ However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.....John 16

I would suggest the Holy Spirit is the 3rd member of the Godhead  without being restricted or impeded by the body of humanity, else we as fallen human beings could or would not be able  to blaspheme against Him.

10 “And anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but to him who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven....Like 12

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

 

[APL]

1 hour ago, LifeHiscost said:

¹³ However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.....John 16

 

John 5:19 KJV Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

[8thdaypriest]

22 hours ago, LifeHiscost said:

If there is no God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, what then is the importance of this?

¹⁹ Go therefore^[a] and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit ....Matthew 28

Especially in light of this;

  16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness....2  Timothy 3

God is Love!~Jesus saves!  

 

BAPTIZING THEM  - IN THE NAME

    Matthew 28:19  “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” (NKJV)

        The Emperor Constantine commissioned and paid for a copying and compilation of the Scriptures known as the “New Testament”.  The resulting Greek text is known as the “Byzantine”.  New Scholarly work by those familiar with the ancient manuscripts has revealed no Greek manuscript older than the time of Constantine, which contains Matthew 28:19.  The page containing Matthew 28:19 was torn from every pre-Constantine Greek manuscript.  One Aramaic manuscript survives.  In that manuscript, Matthew 28:19 reads, “baptizing them in my name.”  In other words, Christ commanded them to baptize in HIS name.  And many other passages confirm that the disciples did just that.

    Acts 2:38  “Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

    Acts 8:16  “For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.”

Acts 19:5  “When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.”

    Romans 6:3 “Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?”

Galatians 3:27 “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

1 Corinthians 6:11  “But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the  name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”

        Eusebius of Caesarea wrote during the 4th century.  He was a “friend” of Constantine.  In his work “Ecclesiastical History, Book III, Cpt 5, Section 2", he quotes Matthew 28:19 as “make disciples of all the nations in my name”.  He quotes the passage in the same way in “Oration in Praise of Emperor Constantine, Cpt 16, Sect. 8" .  He quotes the passage in the same way some 18 times.  Finally, near the end of this life, he quotes the passage once, as “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost”.  He may have been influenced by his loyalty to the Emperor, or by fear of the Emperor.

NO OTHER NAME

    Acts 4:12  “by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole.  This is the stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.  Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

 

[Gregory Matthews]

1)  A statement that no Greek MSS, older than the time of Constantine, exist, that contain Matthews 28:19, is a simplified statement the contains both truth and error.  While we may not have such MSS, we do have other writers,  that wrote prior to Constantine, that quote Matthew 28;19.  So, we do have evidence of such, even if we lack that actual MSS.  However, these writers contain a shortened form of Matthew 28:19.  IOW, they do not generally contain "baptize in the name of the Father, Son or Holy Spirit.  Rather in some manner they simply say to baptize in the name of God/Christ.

2) To say: "The page containing Matthew 28:19 was torn from every pre-Constantine Greek manuscript."  is an emotionally loaded statement that is speculative and cannot be documented. MSS are often fragments and not complete copies.  That is a reality.  But, the language used to describe it in that  manner, is simply pure speculation.

3)  There is some truth is what Rachel wanted to say, that must be acknowledged.  But, in my opinion, she has simplified it in a manner that can lead to misunderstanding of the actual facts.

 

 

[JoeMo]

On 6/17/2017 at 11:00 PM, The Wanderer said:

I do not doubt that you had this experience. In fact, I was attending a pentecostal service with a friend once who had a similar experience right in front of me. But I have a question. You, above almost everyone here, say that you base your belief on "the Bible only," and you have made it clear that you do not accept any other source upon which to base your faith and beliefs. Especially when someone quotes EGW or some other such source. You are publicly quite vocal about this point in a number of ways. And please note, I do not find one iota of criticism about your stance here. I am simply wondering how you would use the Bible to support your claim about where this "power" came from that you experienced? Is there something in Scripture that would say this is what happens to people when "the power of The Holy Spirit" hits them? Please dont take this post personally, it is not intended to be that. I am trying to address an idea.

First of all, to be clear, I accept things EGW has to say that can be backed up with sound scripture.  I do not accept stuff that (IMHO) directly contradicts scripture.  I take the same view with other authors.  Of course, I must admit that my experience with interpretation of scripture is that I don't always get things right, either.  My theology has "evolved" over the years.

Below are just some of the verses describing the power of the Holy Spirit.  A concordance study on "spirit power" will yield many more.

" In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans." (Rom. 8:26)

"This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words." (1Cor. 2:13)

"For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit." (1Cor. 14:2)

"And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." (2 Cor. 3:18)

"Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit" (Eph. 5:18)

" I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell. (2Cor. 12:2-4)

Wanderer, I have no reason to take your posts personally.  I find you personable and open-minded.