The 7th Day Sabbath Begins After Sunset of Friday?

[gmrcguy]

Whoever began or continue in this teaching does not really search the Scriptures seriously.

When God defined the 7th Day Sabbath in Exodus 16 to begin in the morning of the morrow after Friday, would it be likely he would change that definition later so that the 7th Day Sabbath should instead begin after sunset of Friday?

[gmrcguy]

The best suggestion I can give to fellows out there (before they try to reject God's definition of the 7th DAY Sabbath found in Exodus 16 by presenting verses that seem to contradict His message in that chapter) is to let Exodus 16 sink really deep in their hearts first, so that God would use them to defend it vigorously against careless Sabbath presentations and teachings.

There are many teachers out there that will show you that the 7th Day Sabbath began after sunset during Jesus' crucifixion. There are many out there that will use Nehemiah 13:19 to also prove that the 7th DAY Sabbath began after sunset of Friday. If you would believe those to be true, then weigh back how much belief you would still have in God's proclamation of when the weekly Sabbath begins according to Him in Exodus 16.

I know that the discussion would lead further into discussion as to which God created first, is it Night first, or Day first? If so, let us explore the Scriptures.

[John317]

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mannybr2003 said:

Whoever began or continue in this teaching does not really search the Scriptures seriously.

When God defined the 7th Day Sabbath in Exodus 16 to begin in the morning of the morrow after Friday, would it be likely he would change that definition later so that the 7th Day Sabbath should instead begin after sunset of Friday?

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Yes, the Bible teaching is that the 7th day Sabbath begins at sunset on Friday. So, Sabbath begins on what we call Friday evening and it ends on what we call Saturday evening. How can we be sure?

Well, first of all, Genesis 1 shows that the days begin in the evening. "Evening came, and morning followed-- the first day," etc.

Next, turn to Nehemiah 13:19 and read about Nehemiah's ruling that the gates of Jerusalem be closed Friday evening and not be opened until after the Sabbath. Also, according to Lev. 23:32, the special feasts, or sabbaths, were to be kept "from evening to evening."

Finally, both Mark 1:32 and Luke 23:54-56 confirm that the Sabbath in Christ's time began when the sun set on Friday night. History records that the Jews have always considered their Sabbaths to begin on Friday night.

Exodus 16 does not contradict this but is in perfect harmony with it, as is all the Bible. It does not say that the Sabbath "was to begin in the morning of the morrow after Friday. " Verse 23 simply says that on Friday Moses reminded the people that "tomorrow"--i.e., the next day-- was the Sabbath of the Lord. Jim

[John317]

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mannybr2003 said:

The best suggestion I can give to fellows out there... is to let Exodus 16 sink really deep in their hearts first, so that God would use them to defend it vigorously against careless Sabbath presentations and teachings.

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What part of Exodus 16 do you have in mind? And what is the point you are trying to make about the keeping of the Sabbath? Jim

[Gregory Matthews]

Manny:

I have read Exodous 16, and I am uncertain as to how you think that chapter deals with the beginning of the Sabbath.

As I read it, it is dealing with issues regarding how the Sabbath should be kept, in verses 14 ff. That section deals with manna. In this passage, they were to go out in the morning and gather enough manna for one day on five days of the week. But, on the 6th day, (our Friday) they were to gather enough for both Friday and Sabbath. On the Sabbath, they were not to gather any at all, as none came on the Sabbath.

The focus in this section is on the gathering of the manna in the morning--a reasonable time to gather one's food for the day. I see nothing there in regard to a statement as to the beginning of the Sabbath.

In a later post you reference verses which you seem to beleive are related to why people place the beginning of the Sabbath on Friday evening. I think that most people reading here go back to Genesis for a statement as to the time to begin the Sabbath. Repeatedly, in the 1st chapter it tells us that the "evening and the morning were the [ 1st, 2nd, etc.] day. To most of us, that indicates a statement as to the begining of each day.

There are two (mainly) alternative views in Adventism as to when the Sabbath begins. Both of those place the beginning of the Sabbbath on Friday evening. One places it at 6 PM, and the other at another variable time, but not the one that is traditionally held in our Church. Your suggestion of it beginning in the morning is one that is totally new to me. That does not make it wrong. But, I fail to understand where you find your Scriptural support.

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: "There are many out there that will use Nehemiah 13:19 to also prove that the 7th DAY Sabbath began after sunset of Friday."

Let me point out that the majority position of the SDA Chruch is that the Sabbath begins AT sundown on Friday evening. It is not that the Sabbath begin at some undefined time AFTER the sun has set, as you seem to state.

Now let us look at your passage in Nehemiah 13:19:

Again, this passage is not dealing with the question of when the Sabbath begins. It does not state such as a question. It does not address such a question.

Your passage deals with the issue of merchanats doing business in Jerusalem on the Sabbath. Nehemiah wanted to stop that. So, in this passage he places guards at the gaes of Jerusalem to prevent the merchants from entering the city to do business.

He placed those guards at the gates prior to the beginning of the Sabbath. That seems reasonable. If you want to stop such, you do not lock the door after the time that you want to stop the action. You lock the door prior to that time. But, you do so a short time before you want to stop it. You do not do such several hours prior to that time.

When was that time? That time was when the shadows grew long. Well, all of us who are working outside know that just prior to sunset, the shadows grow very long, and this is a reminder that sunset is very near.

Your passage, seems to me to tell us that Nehemiah considered the Sabbath to begin at sunset, rather than the next morning.

[Gregory Matthews]

Manny, how do you account for the fact that all Jewish groups begin the Sabbath Friday evening?

None begin it on Saturday morning.

They serve as a witness to the idea that the Sabbath begins on friday evening.

[olger]

Right.

olger

[melvin mccarty]

My question would be ...does it really matter that much? Jesus said "the Sabbath was made for man". It is a day of rest. If it is right to accept a man made point on the earth's surface where the day changes from Friday to Saturday, which we do, I see no problem accepting a man made midnight starting point for each day. Both are a matter of convenience. Maybe Manny would make more headway argueing for a midnight starting point. Would make sense.

mel

[John317]

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melvin mccarty said:

My question would be ...does it really matter that much? Jesus said "the Sabbath was made for man". It is a day of rest. If it is right to accept a man made point on the earth's surface where the day changes from Friday to Saturday, which we do, I see no problem accepting a man made midnight starting point for each day. Both are a matter of convenience. Maybe Manny would make more headway argueing for a midnight starting point. Would make sense.

mel

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Of course it matters much-- at least if you are an Adventist who accepts Ellen White as a prophet of God. She wrote a lot about the importance of Sabbath keeping and about doing it from sunset to sunset. Also, the Bible shows that it is important; for instance, at Luke 23:56, where it says that Jesus' disciples were careful enough about obeying the Sabbath commandment after his death that they started keeping it Friday evening rather than embalm Jesus' body. (He obviously hadn't told them anything about a change in Sabbath keeping that was to take place after his death.)

One of the problems with thinking it doesn't matter when the Sabbath begins is that people who think that way tend to quit Sabbath keeping altogether eventually. If it doesn't matter when we start keeping the Sabbath, then maybe it would be OK to keep the Sabbath on Sunday, or any other day, instead of on Saturday. I hear people say that all the time. They usually add that after all the Sabbath was made for man, and Christ died to give us Christian freedom, so we are free to keep the Sabbath as we find it convenient to do so.

The Romans already instituted the custom of starting the days from midnight to midnight but they didn't care anything about keeping God's commandments, either. Jim

[cricket]

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melvin mccarty said:

If it is right to accept a man made point on the earth's surface where the day changes from Friday to Saturday, which we do, I see no problem accepting a man made midnight starting point for each day.

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Long before the international date line was declared, man kept the Sabbath. Indeed, the "date line" was first created in the Garden of Eden. Jewish and Gentile people, alike, have kept these same dates since the beginning of the world.

[John317]

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Gregory Matthews said:

Re: "There are many out there that will use Nehemiah 13:19 to also prove that the 7th DAY Sabbath began after sunset of Friday."....

Now let us look at your passage in Nehemiah 13:19:

Again, this passage is not dealing with the question of when the Sabbath begins. It does not state such as a question. It does not address such a question.

Your passage deals with the issue of merchanats doing business in Jerusalem on the Sabbath. Nehemiah wanted to stop that. So, in this passage he places guards at the gaes of Jerusalem to prevent the merchants from entering the city to do business.

He placed those guards at the gates prior to the beginning of the Sabbath. That seems reasonable. If you want to stop such, you do not lock the door after the time that you want to stop the action. You lock the door prior to that time. But, you do so a short time before you want to stop it. You do not do such several hours prior to that time.

When was that time? That time was when the shadows grew long. Well, all of us who are working outside know that just prior to sunset, the shadows grow very long, and this is a reminder that sunset is very near.

Your passage, seems to me to tell us that Nehemiah considered the Sabbath to begin at sunset, rather than the next morning.

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Gregory,

I completely agree with your conclusion that the Nehemiah passage tells us that the Sabbath was considered to begin at sunset. I am not sure why you began your comments, then, by saying Nehemiah 13:19 does not deal with the issue of when the Sabbath begins. I myself don't see how anyone can escape the conclusion that 13:19 shows the Sabbath was considered to start Friday evening. Even non-Adventist, Sunday-keeping commentaries say that much. For instance, the notes at this verse in the Spirit of the Reformation Study Bible say, "Here the Sabbath began at sunset." Jim

[Jeannieb43]

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John317 said:

Of course it matters much-- at least if you are an Adventist who accepts Ellen White as a prophet of God. She wrote a lot about the importance of Sabbath keeping and about doing it from sunset to sunset.

Jim

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Did you know that Ellen White changed her position on when the Sabbath begins--even after faithfully believing and teaching the earlier view [that the Sabbath begins at 6 p.m.Friday], believing she had been shown this in vision.....

I heard this stated by Elder Dalton Baldwin, when he taught a Sabbath school class in Loma Linda a few years ago. He was at that time a part of the White Estate, I believe. He said there were two points of doctrine on which EGW changed her position even after speaking and writing on the earlier position, but after being shown by the brethren who were continuing to study the prophecies and the Scriptures on various subjects, she listened to them and changed her preaching on these two points. I can't recall the second one, but the first one he talked about was the time of day when the Sabbath began and ended. She first taught it to be from 6 p.m. Friday to 6 p.m. Saturday. Only later did she espouse the sunset-to-sunset belief.

I mention this strictly for interest's sake. Not to cast aspersion on Ellen White's inspiration, or on Elder Baldwin, or anything. My take on it is that truth is progressive. We never will know all there is to know about anything, until we get to heaven. And even then, we'll spend all eternity learning it.

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: "I myself don't see how anyone can escape the conclusion that 13:19 shows the Sabbath was considered to start Friday evening. Even non-Adventist, Sunday-keeping commentaries say that much."

John317:

Yes, you are correct, and I agree with what you have said. That passage does indicate that the Hebrews in the time of Nehemiah beleived that the Sabbath bagan at some time on Friday evening. Our knowledge of Jewish religious practeices allow us to read back into that passage that the time to begin the Sabbath, was at Sundown, even though the actual passage does not explicitly tell us whether it was Sundown, or 6 PM (as is practiced today by some), or some other time.

However, let us look carefully at what I said, rather than what you think I said. Here is what I said:

"Again, this passage is not dealing with the question of when the Sabbath begins. It does not state such as a question. It does not address such a question."

In Biblical studies, it is critically important to understand what the Biblical author said, and the meaning and purpose of that author in writing the passage. That passage was clearly addressing the issue of merchants comming into Jersulaem to do comercial business on the Sabbath. It stated that Nehemiah placed the guards at the gates at the time when the shadows began to grow long, which we would understand as being prior to sunset, or prior to the beginning of the Sabbath. You and I are correct in our understanding that the Jewish people began the Sabbath at sundown on the day we call Friday. But, the purpose of that passage was NOT to teach the beginning of the Sabbath at sundown on Friday. Everyone (Hebrew person) already knew such. The purpose was to discuss doing comercial business on the Sabbath.

My friend, you have read into my post something that I did not say.

But, there is a second problem with your comment on my passage. My comment that the Biblical text addressed commercial business activity on the Sabbath, and not the time to begin the Sabbath was made in the context of this thread. That is to say, it was made in the context of what the author of this tread said when he began it.

Here is what that author said at the beginning of this thread:

"When God defined the 7th Day Sabbath in Exodus 16 to begin in the morning of the morrow after Friday, . . ."

The purpose of the author was to tell us that the Sabbath begins on what we would call Saturday morning, not Friday evening. Then as you read further, that same author tells us that we cannot use the Neh. passage to support a Friday evening beginning for the Sabbath. Speaking to that point, I am telling that author that the purpose of the Neh. passage was commercial business on the Sabbath, and not a time to begin it, whether Friday evening, or Saturday morning.

You appear to me to have forgotten the purpose of this thread, and therefore the context of my response.

Anyhow, thanks for asking the question.

[gmrcguy]

I have to show examples from the Bible to prove that this teaching of the Jews that the Sabbath begins after sunset is a recent one, just about after Jesus departed for heaven.

It had been echoed everywhere this recent Jewish teaching that the 7th Day Sabbath commences right after sunset of Friday. And many had accepted it.

If the 7th Day Sabbath, and all the sixth days that God created begins with EVENING, and should end after the DAYTIME, then the day Jesus ressurrected from the dead had TWO EVENINGS: The first EVENING came after the sun had set the previous day. Then came its nighttime, then the daylight time, then according to the Scripture that says Jesus ressurrected, the EVENING time that followed that day also belongs to that day. Here's what God's word says:

John 20:19 “Then it being evening on that day, the first of the sabbaths, and the doors having been locked where the disciples were assembled because of fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst and said to them, Peace to you.”

(Green Literal Translation) PLEASE NOTE, THE EVENING THAT FOLLOWED THE DAYLIGHT BELONGS TO THAT DAYLIGHT THAT JUST PASSED AWAY. There are many more examples I'll show later. One, even involving our Lord Jesus Christ on the scene.

So do you still agree that each day begins after sunset?

That is why let us read carefully Exodus 16 and see that God did not say "tonight at eveningtime" comess the 7th Day Sabbath. Instead He taught Moses to tell the people that "tomorrow" after the 6th Day, when "morning" comes is the 7th Day, a Sabbath to the Lord. Please let that sink deep first before mixing verses that were written later. It is very important to grasp what God is really saying about the starting period of the 7th Day Sabbath in Exodus 16.

We should not readily accept todays teaching of the Jews, even their Sabbath that begins after sunset. Even Jesus did not think those Jews were holy people. They were the ones who insisted He die on the cross, for they think because Jesus did not agree with their new teachings and that He was trying to reform their fellow Jews, that Jesus is worthy of execution. Not that all the Jews were bad. Jesus had also followers among them, and we know He is.

Now let us discover a story given by Inspiration of God to John in his book.

JOHN 1:35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples; 36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God! 37 And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus. 38 Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou? 39 He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and ABODE WITH HIM THAT DAY: for it was about the tenth hour. 40 One of the two which heard John [speak], and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ. 42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone. 43 The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me.

Does verse 29 seems to you that "ABODE WITH HIM THAT DAY", lasted only 2 HOURS (beginning at the 10th hour, which is 4 p.m. in modern times) OR is it more believable to say that "ABODE WITH HIM THAT DAY" lasted until MORNING, when "the following day" when Jesus will go to Galilee "will begin"? Of course it is more reasonable to say and teach that ABODE WITH HIM THAT DAY lasted until just before sunrise.

Did you not notice that although it was already 4 p.m., and 2 of His disciples were just beginning to "abide by lodging in his home, most likely until morning" that the day continued and not end at sunset in that piece of story? And that the new day comes in the morrow (verse 43), naturally it begins at morningtime as was shown first in Exodus 16, and later in the many verses that I will show. So from this story, God is teaching us that each day does not end at sunsettime, but continues until just before sunrise.

Would it be sane to say that “THE DAY FOLLOWING" began when the sun set the day Jesus showed His followers His home?

In my next postings, I'll show you experiences not only by Jesus disciples, but also by early patriarchs,king, and administrators of Israel with regard to how they think each day should be reckoned.

We'll also touch Genesis 1, Nehemiah 13, and the day Jesus died on that one Friday, with the purpose of finding out if the 7th Day Sabbath begins after sunset of Friday, or not.

Some says it doesn't matter whether the Sabbath observance is ended after sunset of Saturday. It does matter very much to God, because we are still only half-way. The nighttime of that day is yet to come. The weekly Sabbath is not half day, but is the Seventh Day, day and night. Look back at Genesis. It is the 7th Day, which is like the previous days, it consisted of the daylight period of resting, worshipping God, then like the other days, it also has AND there was Evening, AND there was morning. The whole DAY and NIGHT plus the Evening plus the Morning is summed up into ONE DAY.

And they say EVENING was made first, before MORNING. The Jews equated EVENING with NIGHT, and MORNING with DAYLIGHT.

It seems, but I will discuss that later. Enough to digest the meat of Exodus 16 first, and the verses and thoughts I just stated.

I read some years back that the observance by the S.D.A. of the weekly Sabbath beginning after sunset was thru the General Conference, where it was voted that that is supposed to be the way that Sabbath is to be observed. Well, even if all the world vote for it, but God says if today is Friday, then tomorrow in the morning is the 7th Day Sabbath, the result of our election will still be not accepted, because we are not the God who created the way days and the 7th Day Sabbath are originally reckoned.

[cricket]

Genesis 1:5 "God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day."

That says nothing at all about the Night being part of the day. Therefore, wouldn't it be correct (using this type of logic) that the fourth commandment doesn't mean we are to keep any night holy? It says we are to keep the Sabbath Day holy. Nowhere does it say anything about the night.

Morning + Evening = Day

Night does not = Day

Therefore, "Keep the Sabbath Day holy" does not equal "Keep the Sabbath Night holy".

And Luke 24:7 says that Jesus would rise on the third day! Will you argue that He rose on a Tuesday?! Just curious.

[gmrcguy]

Cricket wrote:

And Luke 24:7 says that Jesus would rise on the third day! Will you argue that He rose on a Tuesday?! Just curious.

My reply:

Possibly. The Bible didn't say Jesus rose on a Sunday. It says Jesus rose on First Sabbath. This Sabbath could not be a weekly Sabbath, because 3 days after Friday is not the 7th Day. Whether this First Sabbath is one of the 7 Sabbaths that leads to the Pentecost, no one knows for sure.

[cricket]

Actually, in Luke 24:1 it says on the first day of the week the women found Him to be missing and the angel of the Lord said He had risen.

Maybe you could argue that He rose on the Sabbath, but that would make Jesus a liar.

[gmrcguy]

Cricket wrote:

Maybe you could argue that He rose on the Sabbath, but that would make Jesus a liar.

My reply:

I am not using the regular english bibles. I base my statements from the original greek, the vulgate version, as well as from the literal bible translations, which shows what day Jesus really ressurrected, which was not on a Sunday, but First Sabbath.

[cricket]

Oh, well, I use the regular English bibles. Go figure.

[gmrcguy]

Cricket wrote:

Genesis 1:5 "God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day."

That says nothing at all about the Night being part of the day. Therefore, wouldn't it be correct (using this type of logic) that the fourth commandment doesn't mean we are to keep any night holy? It says we are to keep the Sabbath Day holy. Nowhere does it say anything about the night.

I say:

It is too early for me to satisfy completely your arguments, as I have many verses to show that the whole day does not mean daytime only. If you have read the lasts of the posting I made, I brought out the verses wherein Jesus is in the picture. In those verses, are shown that each day does not end when the sun had set. But each verse shows that "ON THAT DAY THEY ABODE WITH HIM", that is, God is showing us that the Night is continuation of the Day. "Daytime" however is what is meant in Genesis 1:5, which Jesus defined (based on where He was speaking, which is Israel) to have 12 hours, if you remember what He said. Daytime is the time where we can walk and not stumble. However, at night, there is total darkness that we cannot see anything, and that if we walk, we could fall

Cricket wrote:

Morning + Evening = Day

Night does not = Day

I say:

Morning + Evening is not Day.

I say that morning is the beginning of the DAY. Read Judges

19:25-27. It is the part of Daytime when the sun rise. The daytime according to Jesus, in his place consisted of 12 hours, and so it begins with the morning, and ends in the evening. The evening has two parts (between the evenings is mentioned in Old Testament). But right after the evening, comes the Night, which is the time when the sun has set. But even when the sun had already set, the DAY CONTINUES THE SAME DAY. Let's read Genesis.

Genesis 15: 17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces. 18 IN THE SAME DAY the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:…

So each DAY consists of DAYTIME as well as NIGHTIME.

We just found out the even Abram and Moses believes the day does not change at sunset, nor end at sunset, but continues to be the same even when it is already dark.

Now would you believe when I say that David and Samuel holds on to this teaching also? And how about the Apostles?

The first thing that God created on the First Day was the Light.

Genesis 1:1 IN THE beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 1:2 Now the earth was unformed and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters.

Genesis 1:3 And God said: 'Let there be light.' And there was light.

Genesis 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.

After creating the light, God called it Day. Until Light was named Day, God didn't call the Darkness "Night" yet. So there was only Darkness in the beginning, but NO NIGHT. The same way, if you find yourself in the outer space in the beginning, it doesn't mean because it is dark, it is already Night. In modern times, it is also not Night if you find yourself inside a big box where there is no light. There you are only in a DARK BOX. Jesus called the dark period which is Night as the opposite of Daytime. This Daytime, He described to have 12 hours, with respect to where He was located when He was stating those words.

And by the way, the terms Night and Day, as well as Evening and Morning in Genesis were applied only to our planet. So when God created Day and Night, and the finishing touches of Evening and Morning, He was applying the terminologies in relation to our planet earth, which revolves around its axis (for 24 hours when in the the equator). But with jokes, someone will say that since God already called Darkness "Night", and that anywhere you walk and its dark so that it makes one to stumble" is to be considered Night. That is only good reasoning as a joke.

This is how it was said when the FIRST DAY was created:

Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

Cricket wrote:

Therefore, "Keep the Sabbath Day holy" does not equal "Keep the Sabbath Night holy".

My reply:

When God created the heaven and the earth, there was Darkness, but no Night yet. The daylight part of the whole day was called Day. THEN, God decided to give name to the Darkness, which he called Night. So Day was created First, then Night. Evening and Morning were the finishing touches for EVERY day that God created. You will notice that everytime God created something in each Day and Night, he also put an Evening as well as Morning in between those Days and Nights.

It doesn't mean that because the Evening was mentioned first before Morning that that is the sequence of events.

You will notice that early in the history of Israel, God gave order for them to prepare two lamb sacrifices for each day. One to be offered in the Morning, and the second to be offered in the Evening. That was the Daily and Perpetual Sacrifice. In Daniel 8, this sacrifice which was actually offered from Morning first, then another in the Evening, was called by God as "Evening and Morning sacrifices", which we saw in Daniel's vision to have been taken away by the 4th Beast. So although 2,300 evenings and mornings will have to take place before this offering will be restored, doesn't mean the Evening comes first, and the Morning later.

[cricket]

Most of what you have written is your own personal interpretation. Your logic is inconsistent.

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We just found out the even Abram and Moses believes the day does not change at sunset, nor end at sunset, but continues to be the same even when it is already dark.

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This is personal interpretation. It is not at all what I get from my reading. I understand that Moses and Abram believed that a full day consisted of both nighttime and daytime hours. It does not convey to me that they believed that a 24-hour day begins and ends at sunset; nor does it convey to me that they believed a 24-hour day begins and ends at sunrise.

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Genesis 1:5 "God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day."

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It doesn't mean that because the Evening was mentioned first before Morning that that is the sequence of events.

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Until Light was named Day, God didn't call the Darkness "Night" yet.

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Why doesn't your logic for the evening/morning sequencing issue follow for your night/day sequencing issue?

[John317]

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Jeannieb43 said:

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John317 said:

Of course it matters much-- at least if you are an Adventist who accepts Ellen White as a prophet of God. She wrote a lot about the importance of Sabbath keeping and about doing it from sunset to sunset.

Jim

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Did you know that Ellen White changed her position on when the Sabbath begins--even after faithfully believing and teaching the earlier view [that the Sabbath begins at 6 p.m.Friday], believing she had been shown this in vision.....

I heard this stated by Elder Dalton Baldwin, when he taught a Sabbath school class in Loma Linda a few years ago. He was at that time a part of the White Estate, I believe. He said there were two points of doctrine on which EGW changed her position even after speaking and writing on the earlier position, but after being shown by the brethren who were continuing to study the prophecies and the Scriptures on various subjects, she listened to them and changed her preaching on these two points. I can't recall the second one, but the first one he talked about was the time of day when the Sabbath began and ended. She first taught it to be from 6 p.m. Friday to 6 p.m. Saturday. Only later did she espouse the sunset-to-sunset belief.

I mention this strictly for interest's sake. Not to cast aspersion on Ellen White's inspiration, or on Elder Baldwin, or anything. My take on it is that truth is progressive. We never will know all there is to know about anything, until we get to heaven. And even then, we'll spend all eternity learning it.

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Yes I know Dalton Baldwin, having been a theology student at Loma Linda U. and attended seminars where Dr. Baldwin was a participant. Elder Baldwin was a teacher in theology on the Loma Linda Campus but to my knowledge was never part of the Ellen White Estate.

If Ellen White ever wrote that God showed her something in vision and then later changed her view, I would have to conclude that she was either a false prophet or a confused woman.

It is true that Ellen White, along with early Adventists, believed different things about the Sabbath as well as about many other topics. But that is not the same thing as saying that Ellen White said God showed her in vision something that she later denied or changed. I know that she never said or wrote that God showed her that the Sabbath was to begin at a different time than what she believed later, based on Bible study. What SDA's believe today about when the Sabbath begins was founded on Bible study and not on any revelation that came to Ellen White.

Please give a reference to where I might find among her writings a statement that God showed her in vision the Sabbath was to be celebrated from 6PM Friday to 6 PM Saturday. Jim

[John317]

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mannybr2003 said:

Cricket wrote:

Maybe you could argue that He rose on the Sabbath, but that would make Jesus a liar.

My reply:

I am not using the regular english bibles. I base my statements from the original greek, the vulgate version, as well as from the literal bible translations, which shows what day Jesus really ressurrected, which was not on a Sunday, but First Sabbath.

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The Greek says "first [day] of the week". The Greek word for "week", sabbaton, is also the word for Sabbath, but if you look it up in any Greek lexion, all confusion will be immediately cleared up.

Also it would help if you studied how the vast majority of translators have translated the passages where the NT mentions "week". You are usually better off if you put your confidence in the standard translations such as the KJV, NKJV, NIV, NASB, NRSV, etc. There is good reason why the translators of those standard Bibles translated the original language as they did. Dozens of some of the best scholars were involved in their translation.

Incidentally, I have Jay P. Green's literal translation of the New Testament (3rd Edition), and at John 20:1, it reads, "But on the first of the week," properly translating sabbaton here as "week", not Sabbath. Of the 50+ translations that I own, only two read Sabbaths instead of week. That ought to tell you something. Be suspicious of translations that are at odds with 99% of the translations of the NT. (Example: "a god" in place of "God" at John 1:1 in the New World Translation.)

One very strong piece of evidence that it should read "first [day] of the week" and not "sabbath" or "sabbaths" is that the Didache (8:1) of the 2nd century AD uses sabbaton (plural form) for "week."

Finally, compare the use of sabbaton at Mark 16:1 and Matthew 28:1; Acts 16:13; 13:14 and Luke 18:12 where "dis tou sabbatou" means "twice a week" and is so translated by Robert Young, Jay P. Green, Sr., and Rotherham. Check out how very reliable translators such as Kenneth S. Wuest, Charles B. Williams, Beck, and Richard Weymouth (3rd Edition) translate the verses dealing with the time of the resurrection. Jim

[gmrcguy]

Jim, you wrote that even Green translated "dis tou sabbatou" to mean "twice a week".

I say:

For your information, Green did not agree to their translation. Here is what I just cut from his version, and pasted here:

(Green Literal Translation) -

Luke 18:12 I fast twice on the sabbath; I tithe all things, as many as I get.

That shows to say you are not completely sure, nor correct in belief that all these translators all agree to the translation that that sabbath mentioned in Luke 18:12 meant "week". What Green plainly wrote was that "twice on the sabbath" that the Pharisee fasted. That shows to say that Green believes "sabbaton" does not mean "week". There is however a verse in Mark 16, verse 2, where Green made a mistake whereby he equated "mias sabbaton" to mean "first of the week", however, in verse 9, he indicated correctly that it should have been "first of the sabbath"; these Young made plainer in Mark 16:2 for "mias sabbaton" as "first of the sabbaths" and Mark 16:9 as "And he, having risen in the morning of the first of the sabbaths".

Now, the Didache writings are not credible when it comes to the translation of the "sabbatou" and "sabbaton" as those writings were 200 years later, and only showed they have already taken hold of the belief such as of today that "sabbaton" should be translated as "week". If that were true, Green and Young would not have translated as are found in their versions. - Manny.