The 7th Day Sabbath Begins After Sunset of Friday?

[gmrcguy]

Jim wrote: "...Check out how very reliable translators such as Kenneth S. Wuest, Charles B. Williams, Beck, and Richard Weymouth (3rd Edition) translate the verses dealing with the time of the resurrection. Jim "

I say: We cannot discount the fact that many of these researchers are affiliated to Sundaykeeping groups, and there comes the work of strengthening the making of sabbaton to mean "week". Even if you consult the Latin Vulgata version, which existed 300+ years after the Textus Receptus, it states Mark 16:2 as "prima sabbati" or "first sabbath", which uses the regular word for "Sabbath".

Why do I say the Didache is not credible when it comes to saying that 'Sabbaton' was adapted to mean 'week'? Because you said that it was just the 2nd century and they already made 'Sabbaton' to mean week, while the Latin Vulgata although it had already been 300 years after, still never made a change of showing that sabbati is already sunday, nor mean 'week'.

[gmrcguy]

Now I would like to say at this point that my belief that Jesus died on a Friday is not completely sure. Matthew 28:1 is showing us that there were more than one Sabbath on that week. We read in some of the pages that tells about the holy week in those books of the Gospel, that it was "the preparation for the Passover" that the Jews were preparing. And we know that the Passover Sabbath comes not at "daytime", but at "eveningtime". That was the Sabbath that was coming. It was "ordered" by God. It was a command by God as found in Exodus, to be observed by every Israelite. For that sunset to sunset Sabbath, corresponds to God's Salvation for Israel, and commemorates their Freedom from land of Abusers(Egypt).

Now, why do we see the friends of Jesus still working when it was supposed to be already sunset? Where do we read that?

Luke 23:44-49 < at 12 noon until 3 p.m. there was darkness in Jerusalem. The sun was darkened, and the curtain in the temple was torn in two. After commending to the Father his spirit, Jesus died. The friends of Jesus from Galilee saw these things happened. > After 3 p.m. Joseph, in verse 52,"went to Pilate. THAT TAKES TIME TO WALK FROM GOLGOTHA TO PILATE'S OFFICE. There he BEGGED for the body of Jesus.THAT TAKES TIME. And he took it down (verse 53) THAT TAKES TIME AGAIN; so TIME IS RUNNING, SOON IT WILL BE SUNSET. But he had friends who helped him put it down (John 19:40)and wound his body with a linen cloth with the 100 pound (weight) of spices (mixture of myrrh and aloes). SURELY IT TOOK MORE TIME TO PREPARE JESUS DEAD BODY FOR BURIAL. IT SHOULD BE ABOUT SUNSET NOW, and they did buried Jesus. In Luke 23:54, we are told that "the day Jesus died was the preparation." It was Jesus who the Jews were preparing, "the real Passover" John wrote in plain words (John 19:14)"14 And it was the {preparation of the passover}, [JESUS IS THE REAL PASSOVER - 1 CORINTHIANS 5:7 "For even Christ our {passover} is sacrificed for us: "; and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!" SO HERE WE SEE THAT IT WAS JESUS, THE REAL PASSOVER OFFER THAT WAS BEING PREPARED TO BE EATEN ON THIS "COMING" PASSOVER SABBATH, A YEARLY FEAST! It was a sabbath that comes at "sunset time". The final phase of preparation is from 3 p.m. until sunset (that is, the later part of "between the evenings" mentioned in Exodus.

Verse 54 of Luke 23, says Jesus died on the preparation (for the passover)[HIM BEING THE REAL PASSOVER]. A-N-D THE SABBATH DREW ON. It was natural for the Passover to draw that time of the day, which was "sunset time", for that is how Passover Sabbath was ordered to begin, "from sunset to another evening. There is another evening to evening sabbath which God asked to be held on the 9th day of the 7th month (Levi. 23:27-32). Those two are different from the weekly sabbath that is shown in Exodus 16, that God declared to begin in the morrow after the six day, "when the morning" comes. But that 7th day Sabbath did not come the next morning.

David and Samuel attests that each of those regular days begins in the morning, but not ends when the sunsets. See 1 1 Samuel 30:17 and 2 Samuel 11:12 That instead, the evening of each day comes LATER during that day, which is followed immediately by ITS OWN NIGHT.

See also the experience of the Apostles in Acts 4:3-5.

And let us also learn from the book of Judges, where it God clearly points to us that each day begins in the morning. Judges 19:5-27. If you get to catch up with these teachings of God, congratulations to all you friends!

Now, going back to Luke 23:54, we noticed that the Sabbath had already drawn. But here in verse 56, we are shown that the friends of Jesus, and the women are just beginning to go home to return to their homes (some as far as Galilee, which is very far away). Then notice (it is said to be already Sabbath), and still they CONTINUED their WORK OF "PREPARING". What they were DOING (WORK!), OR WORKING UPON WERE "PREPARING SPICES AND OINTMENTS" WHEN IT WAS ALREADY SABBATH? OR was it the PASSOVER SABBATH THAT DRAW ON THAT'S WHY THEY STILL CONTINUED THEIR PREPARATION MORE PERFUME FOR THE RESSURRECTION OF JESUS? YES! The weekly sabbath is not yet come that's why they were still doing something. It was only the PASSOVER SABBATH THAT ARRIVED! Let us go to the next verse to see that the 7th Day Sabbath has not yet arrived.

Luke 23:56"And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment." YES, THE SABBATH THAT ARRIVED IN VERSE 54 WAS ONLY THE PASSOVER SABBATH. THAT SABBATH COMES AT SUNSET TIME. BUT THE 7TH DAY SABBATH COMES IN THE MORNING. SO, THEY CONTINUED WORKING EVEN WHEN it was already LATE AT NIGHT. SURELY ON THAT PASSOVER SABBATH, THEY WOULD HAVE FINISHED PREPARING THE PERFUMES FOR JESUS. AND HE DIED THE DAYTIME BEFORE THAT PASSOVER NIGHT ARRIVED. SO THEY KNOW THEY HAVE TO WAIT 3 DAYS AND 3 NIGHTS BEFORE THEY WOULD SEE JESUS COME BACK TO LIFE, SO THAT Luke 23:56, MENTIONED THAT "THEY RESTED THE 7TH DAY SABBATH ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENT", STARTING OF COURSE IN THE MORNING OF SATURDAY!

Because of these facts, we are now seeing 2 Sabbaths being held that week: a Passover, yearly Sabbath which came first, and also the weekly or 7th Day Sabbath. So it was also possible Jesus did not die on Friday.

The New Testament shows us that Jesus celebrated his Passover with his disciples according to what is required in old Testament, on the 14th of Abib, which was the first day of unleavened bread, "when the passover was killed". However, the Jews did not celebrate the Passover that year on the 14th, but on the 15th, and the New Testament called their celebration as "Passover of the Jews", that's when they crucified Jesus, the real Passover offering.

- Manny.

[gmrcguy]

I WROTE: "WHEN it was already LATE AT NIGHT. SURELY ON THAT PASSOVER SABBATH, THEY WOULD HAVE FINISHED PREPARING THE PERFUMES FOR JESUS. AND HE DIED THE DAYTIME BEFORE THAT PASSOVER NIGHT ARRIVED. SO THEY KNOW THEY HAVE TO WAIT 3 DAYS AND 3 NIGHTS BEFORE THEY WOULD SEE JESUS COME BACK TO LIFE, SO THAT Luke 23:56, MENTIONED THAT "THEY RESTED THE 7TH DAY SABBATH ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENT", STARTING OF COURSE IN THE MORNING OF SATURDAY!"

EXACTLY, JESUS CAME BACK TO LIFE AFTER 3 DAYS AND 3 NIGHTS AS SHOWN IN MARK 16:2 AND 9, WHICH WAS IN THE MORNING OF THE "FIRST SABBATH", OR FIRST OF THE 7 SABBATHS THAT LEADS TO THE DAY OF PENTECOST (the 50th day, being the day when the Holy Spirit was poured to the first elders of the Christian Church.

So it follows that when Mark 16:2 and 9 says that Jesus ressurrected on the "First Sabbath", it follows that counting back three days, we will find that Jesus died at about 3 p.m. of Wednesday; was captured at midnight of Tuesday; asked Peter and John to prepare the Passover on Tuesday afternoon, and ate with his disciples after sunset of Tuesday (Tuesday Night); the book of Matthew 26:2 puts Sunday as the day this verse was spoken, which prophecised that "after 2 days is the Passover, by then Jesus will be betrayed to be crucified".

[gmrcguy]

HAS ANYONE EVER WONDERED WHY GOD HAD TO PUT MORNING AND EVENING TO EACH DAY THAT HE MADE?

God was and remains very thoughtful. If God did not put morning and evening, it would be an abrupt bright day from Night, and then from very Bright Day, it will all of a sudden be Very Dark Night. It's like putting cold water to a very hot furnace! There will be a sudden wild smoke. So God being thoughtful, didn't want to have the eyes of his subjects destroyed; nor the skins, blood, brains and nerves of them burst or explode like ballons and bombs! I know everybody thinks that is commonsense, but some of us have become very sophisticated in thinking that we at times forget about simple matters. I say "we".

One purpose of God for making Morning and Evening, is to teach His human creation to learn to socialize correctly with his Maker; to teach man God's values such as respect, obedience, love, and to develop loyalty towards God. Early in the Bible, he required the Israelites to offer a daily sacrice, one in the Morning, and the other in the Evening. It was meant to be offered 'perpetually'. It was taken away by the 4th beast or 'he goat' of Daniel's prophecy, but the same prophecy states that said Evening and Morning sacrifices will be restored back to this world.

I have no idea how it will be when the Evening and Morning Daily Sacrifice will be implemented in the future time. But it was prophecised to be restored in the course of time, with the intervention of God. - Manny.

[gmrcguy]

John317 wrote: "Incidentally, I have Jay P. Green's literal translation of the New Testament (3rd Edition), and at John 20:1, it reads, "But on the first of the week," properly translating sabbaton here as "week", not Sabbath."

I say: I have also cut from the same author's Bible concerning John 20:1, and here's what it says:

John 20

1 ¶ But on the first of the sabbaths, Mary Magdalene came early to the tomb, darkness yet being on it. And she saw the stone had been removed from the tomb.

And from the same Bible in digital format it says:

Scripture taken from the Literal Translation of the Holy Bible

Copyright © 1976 - 2000

By Jay P. Green, Sr.

Used by permission of the copyright holder

I don't know why in your copy of Jay P. Green, Sr. it says

"first of the week", when the copy that I have clearly states "first of the sabbaths" on the same verse. - Manny

[jasd]

>>I don't know why in your copy of Jay P. Green, Sr. it says

"first of the week", when the copy that I have clearly states "first of the sabbaths" on the same verse. – Manny<<

Cursorily…: I believe that Jay P. Green first wrote a transliteration of the Greek text followed by his more commonly known Interlinear Translation. The text of John 20:1 that you proffered – seems to be from his Literal Translation of the Holy Bible. Another of his transliterated texts is provided below…

Matthew 28

1 But late in the sabbaths, at the dawning into the first of the sabbaths, Mary the Magdalene and the other Mary came to gaze upon the grave.

http://www.litvonline.com/litv/matt.htm#28

Additionally,

your thoughts seem to somewhat coincide with TDAlexander, Editor of ‘New Dictionary of Biblical Theology’ who states in his ‘From Paradise to the Promised Land’ that prior to the sixth century Captivity the Jews observed a sunrise demarcation; afterwards, and in NT times the day began at sunset. That can’t be proved by me; however,

I believe that if careful heed is given to NT texts… they will also yield a Roman observance of time.

[gmrcguy]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Finally, both Mark 1:32 ... confirm that the Sabbath in Christ's time began when the sun set on Friday night.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

By giving this verse (Mark 1:32) which says: " 32That evening after sunset the people brought to Jesus all the sick and demon-possessed" and shows that Jesus began to cure the sick and to drive away the demons that possesses some of the people, you want to make people believe that the 7th day sabbath "just dawned when the evening after sunset arrived". I want to let you know that you are completely wrong and are misleading most readers. Right now I would like you to read backwards in the same chapter, by reading verse 21, from which you will learn that it was already sabbath long before the sunset of that day arrived.

Here is the word of the Holy Spirit:

Mark 1:21"They went to Capernaum, and when the Sabbath came, Jesus went into the synagogue and began to teach."

That's the truth about the 7th day sabbath. It does not arrive at after sunset. But that after sunset, the evening that follows is just a continuation of the sabbath, which ends just before the sunrise after the deep night is over.

Why the Mary's and Jesus disciples rested and observed sabbath after sunset?

It was not the weekly sabbath that they observed on the day Jesus died. John 14:19 expressly says that it was the preparation of the passover. The Passover was commanded to be prepared, and that no work should be done when it comes. God ordered the early Israelites to observe the Passover, which is a yearly sabbath "from evening until the next evening". The Mary's and disciples of Jesus did not violate that command according to Luke.

Even the first verses of the last chapters of each books of the Gospel clearly states that the sabbath begins at morning time.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

huh? <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/dizzy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

[Gerr]

Manny, let me ask you a question. Do you keep the 7th day Sabbath from Saturday a.m. till Sunday a.m.?

And have you never heard that the Passover could fall on the same day as the 7th day Sabbath?

Gerry

[gmrcguy]

I've been away from the Forum for almost two years and I today I decided to revive the topic. May I ask Mr. Gregory Matthews to explain how that the Sabbath began at sunset when Jesus died, and then the book of Matthew 28:1 tells that when that Sabbath ended, it was already Sunday "morning", when what is supposed to follow is the Sabbath morning? And with that, the Night of Sunday also dis-appeared. Can anyone explain the dis-appearance of daytime Saturday in that verse, as well as the dis-appearance of Sunday Night which is supposed to take place before Sunday morning?

Isn't it if the Sabbath begins at night, it should also end when nighttime arrives, why in Matthew the Sabbath ended in the morning, and that was already the morning of Sunday. Where went Sunday Night?

With Friday as crucifixion, and that night is beginning of Sabbath, and at end of that night came Sunday morning, you made Jesus to die only inside that grave for 12 hours. How do you prove to the Jews and the Moslems that with this 12 hours death Jesus is truthful when he promised that the only sign of Him as the Messiah they are waiting to revive believers at his return is a 3 days and 3 nights stay in the grave?

[John317]

Jim wrote: "...Check out how very reliable translators such as Kenneth S. Wuest, Charles B. Williams, Beck, and Richard Weymouth (3rd Edition) translate the verses dealing with the time of the resurrection. Jim "

I say: We cannot discount the fact that many of these researchers are affiliated to Sundaykeeping groups, and there comes the work of strengthening the making of sabbaton to mean "week". Even if you consult the Latin Vulgata version, which existed 300+ years after the Textus Receptus, it states Mark 16:2 as "prima sabbati" or "first sabbath", which uses the regular word for "Sabbath".

Why do I say the Didache is not credible when it comes to saying that 'Sabbaton' was adapted to mean 'week'? Because you said that it was just the 2nd century and they already made 'Sabbaton' to mean week, while the Latin Vulgata although it had already been 300 years after, still never made a change of showing that sabbati is already sunday, nor mean 'week'.

What you are saying, it seems to me, is that we ought to discount all the evidence that doesn't support our favorite theory or favorite translation.

The people whose testimony and opinions are cited above are very well respected translators and teachers of the Koine Greek. It should be noted that they are in complete agreement with, and are supported by, all of the standard Greek lexicons and dictionaries. Not to mention all 50+ of my most reliable English translations, and all of the translations I know of into Spanish.

Professional translators who translate Mark 16:2 from the Latin also translate it as "first day of the week."

Do you know of any standard Greek/English lexicons that say Mark 16:1, etc., should be translated as "first of the sabbaths"?

Also, what linguistic evidence do you have that the use of Sabbaton changed from the time of the NT to the writing of the Didache?

[John317]

John317 wrote: "Incidentally, I have Jay P. Green's literal translation of the New Testament (3rd Edition), and at John 20:1, it reads, "But on the first of the week," properly translating sabbaton here as "week", not Sabbath."

I say: I have also cut from the same author's Bible concerning John 20:1, and here's what it says:

John 20

1 ¶ But on the first of the sabbaths, Mary Magdalene came early to the tomb, darkness yet being on it. And she saw the stone had been removed from the tomb.

...

Jay P. Green Interlinear Bible, 1976, 1985 (Second Edition, 1986)--

Mark 16:3-- both in the main translation and in the Interlinear: "... very early on the first of the week..."

Luke 24: 1-- in the main translation: "on the first of the week..."

At John 20: 1, 19, Green translates the identical Greek phrase as "on the first of the sabbaths..."

Acts 20: 7-- in the main translation: "And on the first of the week..." In the interlinear: "... the one of the sabbaths..."

1 Cor. 16: 2-- in the main translation: "On the first of a week..." In the Interlinear: "Every one of a week..."

Green's KJV II Version of the Bible:

Matt. 28: 1-- "And at the end of the Sabbath, as it was dawning toward the first day of the week..."

Mark 16: 2-- "And very early on the first day of the week..."

Luke 24: 1-- "And on the first day of the week..."

John 20: 1, 19-- "the first of the sabbaths..."

Acts 20: 7-- "And on the first of the week..."

1 Cor. 16: 2-- "On the first of the week.."

Summary: Ten times Green translates the same Greek phrase "on the first of the week" and three times he translates it as "the first of the sabbaths."

The weight of evidence clearly suggests that he favors the translation, "on the first of the week," since John 20: 1, 19 and the interlinear of Acts 20: 7 are the only exceptions to the rule. Otherwise, Green shows that sabbaton should be translated in those verses to signify "week". In this, Green agrees with the overwhelming evidence of all the authorities as well as with the way the word was used in the Didache. 99.9 translations agree also. That means there is a very high degree of agreement in the scholarly world where the Greek language is studied and taught, that sabbaton in the verses under consideration does indeed refer to "week."

[gmrcguy]

[And have you never heard that the Passover could fall on the same day as the 7th day Sabbath?]

I know that, but I know using the Hebrew Calendar that it did not fall in the same day. Jesus Passover is based with the original 14th of the First month of Israel as New Testament verses tells, while even at His time on earth and up to now the Jews are Preparing the Passover on the 15th, which even the Roman Catholic knows happened in A.D. 30. The 14th of Nisan, A.D.30 falls on a Wednesday in the Hebrew Calendar. Jesus being what the Passover lamb is representing according to 1Corinthians 5:7, did spent the night with the 12 disciples, and offered himself as the meal and drink for the Passover Meal, on that 14th, same according to two verses given in the New Testament. On that day Jesus ordered his 2 followers to prepare the Passover, and when the night of the 14th arrived, they did ate together. The morning that followed, wherein he was crucified is called in the New Testament 'Preparation of the Passover'John 19:14. The whole day until just before the next sunrise this preparation is to take place according to the records in Matthew 27:62. It did not end at sunrise. Please check your Bible. It was not the weekly Sabbath that they were busy preparing for, but most of the compatriots of Jesus were preparing their passover meal the next day that Jesus and his followers did, which is not a biblical (command) one. That was the 15th of Nisan. What was ordered was for them to eat unleavened bread on that day until the night of 21st of Nisan. When the night of 15th arrived, as well as the night of the 21st arrives, that was considered a solemn assembly, and they are commanded to cease from labor from evening of 15th til the next evening, also to be repeated on the evening til evening of the 21st of Nisan. In the times of Jesus, the New Testament writing describes or magnify it for us as "sabbath", that's why it arrived at nighttime.

The day following the crucifixion and burial of Jesus, which was early at morningtime, you will remember that the high priests and the pharisees gathered before Gov. Pilate to ask him to station guards before the cave containing the body of Jesus. They told him that Jesus, who makes foolish pretenses told them that "while he was alive, he told them that he will rise again AFTER THREE DAYS. Pilate told them to put the guards in the way they know from that day, UNTIL THE THIRD DAY. Let us call that day of starting to guard first day of guarding. And that day was Friday. The second day of guarding on Saturday. Then when the night of Saturday ended, came Sunday morning, wherein Jesus rose back to life. That makes Jesus truthful, and proves himself as the one we should wait to revive eternal life to worthy among mankind.

I

[John317]

... now the Jews are Preparing the Passover on the 15th, which even the Roman Catholic knows happened in A.D. 30. The 14th of Nisan, A.D.30 falls on a Wednesday in the Hebrew Calendar.

...

Ever consider the possibility that Jesus died in A.D. 31?

[BobRyan]

Leviticus 23:32 From evening unto evening shall you celebrate your Sabbaths.

Both Ex 20 and all of Leviticus -- written at Sinai.

Nothing in Ex 20 says "from morning until morning shall you celebrate your Sabbaths" so as to contradict.

Not sure what part of this is confusing.

in Christ,

Bob

[gmrcguy]

[... now the Jews are Preparing the Passover on the 15th, which even the Roman Catholic knows happened in A.D. 30. The 14th of Nisan, A.D.30 falls on a Wednesday in the Hebrew Calendar.]

The Jewish Calendar, and even the Roman Catholic Church tells us it happened in A.D. 30. On A.D. 31, the 14th of Nisan was either Monday or Tuesday.

[gmrcguy]

[Leviticus 23:32 From evening unto evening shall you celebrate your Sabbaths.]

This is applicable only for the 7th month, 9th or 10th day. Please read again the whole story.