When Do the Seven Seals Really Apply?

[Ron Lambert]

 

 

 

It is ironic that there are so many virulent diseases popping up, even in this age of advanced medical knowledge and technology. This is one reason why I believe we are living in the time of the fourth seal (the seven seals are opened after the start of the Pre-Advent Judgment depicted in Revelation 4, 5; hence must be applied after 1844): "So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth." (Revelation 6:8)

Notice the part about killing with death. How do you kill with death? The bubonic plague was called "the Black Death." And also notice that many of the most virulent diseases have animal vectors--like those bats known to carry Marburg virus in that infamous cave in Kenya. Or Swine Flu. Or Avian Flu. Or Mad Cow Disease. We haven't reached the point yet where one-fourth of the earth is affected. Maybe that will happen when a few nukes get tossed around by the likes of Iran, or their terrorist clients, or North Korea. (This would be included in killing "with sword.") Nukes would be followed by hunger. But already, thanks to the nuclear disaster in Japan a few years ago, the entire Pacific Ocean is contaminated with radioactive Cesium 137. All fish caught in the Pacific now contains detectable traces.

Additional note: The NASB and the NRSV use the word "pestilence" to translate the word rendered as "death" in the KJV in Rev. 6:8. The NIV translates it as "plague." The Greek word is Thanatos, which literally means death--but these modern versions recognize that proper translation requires taking things in context, which includes taking note of how various words are used in other literature of the time. There are connotations for thanatos that go beyond that caused by violence. For example: "Thanatos was the ancient Greek god or personified spirit (daimon) of non-violent death. His touch was gentle, likened to that of his twin brother Hypnos (Sleep)." Link: http://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Thanatos.html

While of course Jesus and His Apostles did not accept pagan deities as real, they did use language with an awareness of the connotations of words in common usage.

[TrevorL]

Greetings Ron,

On ‎8‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 5:18 AM, Ron Lambert said:

It is ironic that there are so many virulent diseases popping up, even in this age of advanced medical knowledge and technology. This is one reason why I believe we are living in the time of the fourth seal (the seven seals are opened after the start of the Pre-Advent Judgment depicted in Revelation 4, 5; hence must be applied after 1844): "So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth." (Revelation 6:8)

I believe that the seven seals apply to the period AD96-312, covering the period of the decline of the Pagan Roman Empire and its replacement by a nominally Christian Empire under Constantine.

Kind regards Trevor

[Ron Lambert]

2 Peter 1:20 tells us: "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." It does not matter how many people have held to an interpretation that was never Biblical, nor for how long such interpretations have been accepted. If we do not use strictly Biblical methods for interpreting Bible prophecies, then they are private interpretations.

Here are the three rules of interpretation that must be followed in order to avoid any private interpretation:

First, all prophetic symbols must be defined by Scripture alone. We can do this, because the prophets “spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” Thus prophecies written a thousand years apart in different languages, can still be relied upon to be consistent in the meaning of the symbols used, and in the overall outline of world events. The prophetic visions were given to the prophets by One Divine Mind.

Second, the prophecies must be applied to history—ONLY during the time periods context indicates to us that they apply. This is seen in the prophecies of Daniel 8:20-26, where the angel names the empires in historical sequence that correspond to the symbols used earlier. This also means that the prophecies of the seven seals in Revelation 6:1 to 8:1 must be applied after the beginning of the Judgment, depicted in Revelation chapters four and five. This is a dramatic departure from traditional views, and gives us new light that is vitally relevant!

Third, we must be reasonable in understanding whether something is literal narrative, or symbolic. We should note if an image or statement is specifically defined as symbolic or is used frequently as a prophetic symbol or metaphor in other places in the Bible. We should not have to guess about this. We can look it up.

The problem with the centuries old, traditional interpretation of the seven seals is that it was never interpreted using these three rules. Especially it violates the second rule: it ignores the context, which in Revelation chapters four and five is the Judgment. The seals are opened during the Judgment. Therefore any interpretation which sees the fulfillment of the seven seals as coming prior to 1844 is unBiblical, and must be discarded as a private interpretation.

 

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Ron,

21 hours ago, Ron Lambert said:

2 Peter 1:20 tells us: "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." It does not matter how many people have held to an interpretation that was never Biblical, nor for how long such interpretations have been accepted. If we do not use strictly Biblical methods for interpreting Bible prophecies, then they are private interpretations.

Here are the three rules of interpretation that must be followed in order to avoid any private interpretation:

This thread seems similar to your earlier thread where I made the following comments:

I believe that 2 Peter 1:20-21 is not talking about interpretation, but origination. In other words the prophets did not originate their message, but were inspired by God, and hence we should give heed to their message. I am not sure that every symbol can be based upon previous Scripture, and some context and correct interpretation helps.

 

Over the years I have compared my understanding of Daniel with what the SDAs usually present in their literature and seminars. My major departure with the SDA view commences in Daniel 2, where the SDAs teach that the earth will be desolate for the 1000 years, while Daniel 2:35,44 teach me that the Kingdom of God will be upon the earth for the 1000 years.

 

Your comments here indicate that you accept the major view of the SDAs concerning 1844, while I believe that a major fulfillment of the 2300 years was in 1967 when the Jews regained Jerusalem. Thus I have a major difference with SDAs on both Daniel 2 and Daniel 8.  Another difference with what you suggest, is that I believe that the seals represent the prophetic period from AD96 to AD 312. Many expositors have taught this from the earliest times. It represents the judgements on the Pagan Roman Empire. Prophetically, sometimes the final picture is revealed, and then the steps leading up to this final picture are revealed. For example Isaiah 2:1-5 precede in the vision, when the Kingdom of God on earth is established upon the earth for the 1000 years, centred in literal Jerusalem, but the judgements and earthquake are then detailed in the rest of Isaiah 2.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[Ron Lambert]

Trevor, the point the Apostle Peter made in 2 Peter 1:20, 21, is that all prophecies of the Bible do have one origination--the One Mind of the Holy Spirit. Since they all come from One Mind (and NOT from the individual prophets), we have to assume that He would use prophetic symbols consistently, so that the one and only correct interpretation of any symbol must be found in Scripture alone.

As for the correct ending of the 2300 days/years of Daniel 8:14, that must be determined by recognizing the correct starting point. Daniel 9:23 refers back to the vision of Daniel 8:14, that had caused Daniel so much anxiety that he fainted, and that he had prayed about in the preceding portion of the chapter. Then the starting point is given in Daniel 9:25: "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times." The best historical scholarship we have is that Ezra left Persia with King Artaxerxes' command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (the one that was actually put into effect) in 457 B.C. ("on the twelfth day of the first month"--Ezra 8:31), and Ezra would have arrived in Jerusalem in the fall of the year, and that is when he published Artaxerxes' command throughout the land of Judah--thus that was the "going forth of the commandment" stipulated in Daniel 9:25. Allowing for the fact that there was no year zero (1 B.C. was followed by 1 A.D.), that would mean the 2300 years would end in the fall of 1844.

Attesting to the accuracy of this interpretation is the fact that the same calculation also takes us to the dates for Christ's annointing as Messiah at His Baptism, and to His crucifixion 3 1/2 years later ("in the midst of the week"). This establishes the legitimacy of Christ's claim to be the Messiah. And so Jesus began His preaching in place after place by saying: "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." (Mark 1:15) So also Paul attested, "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law...." (Galatians 4:4) Thus you cannot overthrow the 1844 fulfillment of Daniel 8:14 without also overthrowing the Messiahship of Jesus.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Ron,

11 hours ago, Ron Lambert said:

Trevor, the point the Apostle Peter made in 2 Peter 1:20, 21, is that all prophecies of the Bible do have one origination--the One Mind of the Holy Spirit. Since they all come from One Mind (and NOT from the individual prophets), we have to assume that He would use prophetic symbols consistently, so that the one and only correct interpretation of any symbol must be found in Scripture alone.

I agree that we should always look to other portions of Scripture to unlock some of the symbols in the Book of Revelation. Some of the symbols are evident such as eating the tree of life in Revelation 2:7, but where in other Scripture do you find reference to a white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17? Possibly the context seems to help us decide, but some may come to a different view.

 

How do you determine the following extended symbols, both as to what they represent and the exact time period they depict? Where else in Scripture do we find an explanation of locusts that had stings in their tails like scorpions verse 10? Is this also after 1844 and has it occurred as yet or future?

Revelation 9:7-10 (KJV): 7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. 8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. 9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. 10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

 

Some symbols may have previous clues as to their meaning, but how to understand the meaning in the context, and its application can be difficult. I have a keen interest in Isaiah 6 and have listened to many talks and read some expositions. But with all the details there is a wide range of views of this chapter. What is the meaning of the seraphim covering their face, feet and flying? I have an opinion, but few may agree.

 

I believe that Revelation 4 is a vision of Jesus upon the throne and is parallel with Isaiah 2 and Isaiah 6, where the completed picture is presented first and the events that lead up to this finality is then presented. The seals are the start of the process and then the trumpets and then the vials. They are all sequential, and represent the continuous historic view. Is your view of the seals, trumpets and vials sequential?

11 hours ago, Ron Lambert said:

As for the correct ending of the 2300 days/years of Daniel 8:14, that must be determined by recognizing the correct starting point. Daniel 9:23 refers back to the vision of Daniel 8:14, that had caused Daniel so much anxiety that he fainted, and that he had prayed about in the preceding portion of the chapter. Then the starting point is given in Daniel 9:25: "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times." The best historical scholarship we have is that Ezra left Persia with King Artaxerxes' command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (the one that was actually put into effect) in 457 B.C. ("on the twelfth day of the first month"--Ezra 8:31), and Ezra would have arrived in Jerusalem in the fall of the year, and that is when he published Artaxerxes' command throughout the land of Judah--thus that was the "going forth of the commandment" stipulated in Daniel 9:25. Allowing for the fact that there was no year zero (1 B.C. was followed by 1 A.D.), that would mean the 2300 years would end in the fall of 1844.

 

 

I have no problem with the 70 week prophesy, and that one starting point for the 2300 years could be 457 BC bringing us to 1844. Where I differ from SDAs is what 1844 would signify. At that time some believed that they would be taken to heaven and the earth destroyed. Others who looked for the Kingdom to be established on the earth may have looked for the return of Jesus to the earth. Others who believed in the return of the Jews may have looked for the start of this process, similar to the days of Daniel and Ezra. How much of the SDA view of what happened in 1844 is based on what William Miller believed I am uncertain, but I do not think he agreed with the present SDA view, except perhaps for burning the earth for 1000 years. I also believe that 2300 years need to be measured from the overthrow of Persia by Alexander in BC 334-333 and culminating in AD 1967 when the Jews regained Jerusalem. I believe that Jesus alludes to and quotes Daniel 8:13-14 in Luke 21:20-24. The concept of treading down is not applicable to the Persian period, but commences with the Greeks and carried on by the Romans. Possibly SDAs do not connect or explain these verses as it does not agree with their view.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

 

[Ron Lambert]

I cannot now say what exactly the white stone with a new name on it might represent, though I suspect it has a local cultural reference, rather than being a prophetic symbol.

As for 1844, it seems logical to me that since Daniel 8:14 says "then shall the sanctuary be cleansed," it is talking about the Day of Atonement, which the sanctuary services (as enacted prophecy) inform us about. The Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) has always been understood to be a Day of Judgment. Looking back on it now, it is hard to understand how the Millerites could have missed such an obvious point. But perhaps the Holy Spirit allowed them to be mistaken about the event, since they might not have been all that enthused about something as abstract as a prefiguring of the beginning of the Judgment, and God wanted to call attention to the date.

I cannot see any light in any other starting point for the 2300 days/years than 457 B.C. If any of the time prophecies referred to the overthrow of Persia by Alexander, then why was Daniel so upset about the time prophecy he was given, and why was he studying the prophecy of Jeremiah that the captivity would only last 70 years? Preterism in any of its forms do not work out exactly--they require a lot of fudging to get the dates to even approximate near fulfillments. Frankly Preterism is just an attempt to avoid the implications of a strictly historicist application of the prophecies. The Maccabees were the first to misinterpret the time prophecies this way. That was even predicted by a prophecy that foretells the Maccabees, Daniel 11:14: ""Now in those times many will rise up against the king of the South; the violent ones among your people will also lift themselves up in order to fulfill the vision, but they will fall down." (NASB) Many people view the Maccabees as heroes, but Daniel 11:8 condemns them. They did start out as a band of robbers, and they did try to use the time prophecies of Daniel to add an appearance of legitimacy to their rebellion against the Grecians. The Maccabees were among the first ones who combined church and state contrary to God's will (a sort of forerunner of the Papacy), and they were the ones who made the fateful treaty with Rome that placed Judea under Roman dominion. Anyone today who espouses Preterism is merely rehashing the false propaganda of the Maccabees. It was a Roman Catholic Jesuit scholar,  Luis de Alcázar, who popularized Preterism among Christians, in an attempt to push back against the Protestant charge that the Little Horn power of Daniel 7:8 was fulfilled in the Papacy.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Ron,

 

 

41 minutes ago, Ron Lambert said:

As for 1844, it seems logical to me that since Daniel 8:14 says "then shall the sanctuary be cleansed," it is talking about the Day of Atonement, which the sanctuary services (as enacted prophecy) inform us about. The Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) has always been understood to be a Day of Judgment. Looking back on it now, it is hard to understand how the Millerites could have missed such an obvious point. But perhaps the Holy Spirit allowed them to be mistaken about the event, since they might not have been all that enthused about something as abstract as a prefiguring of the beginning of the Judgment, and God wanted to call attention to the date.

 

My understanding of the sanctuary being cleansed is the cleansing of Jerusalem, making it ready for the establishment of the third Temple and its worship Ezekiel 40-48. AD 1967 was an important step towards this, and remarkably the events of the 6 Day War have set the stage for many prophecies that speak of the events surrounding Armageddon, when the Sanctuary will be further cleansed by the earthquake of Zechariah 14.

 

41 minutes ago, Ron Lambert said:

I cannot see any light in any other starting point for the 2300 days/years than 457 B.C. If any of the time prophecies referred to the overthrow of Persia by Alexander, then why was Daniel so upset about the time prophecy he was given, and why was he studying the prophecy of Jeremiah that the captivity would only last 70 years?

 

Because if he understood it as 2300 years then he would almost be overwhelmed and disappointed by this long period. Daniel 8 depicted another conquest of Jerusalem and overthrow of the Temple which was effected by the Romans.

 

Kind regards Trevor

[Ron Lambert]

We know the "cleansing of the sanctuary" refers to the Day of Atonement, because we read in Leviticus 16:29, 30: "This shall be a statute forever for you: In the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether a native of your own country or a stranger who dwells among you.  For on that day the priest shall make atonement for you, to cleanse you, that you may be  clean from all your sins  before  the  Lord ." (NKJV) That this included the sanctuary is evident from verses 32-34 of the same chapter: "And the priest, who is anointed and consecrated to minister as priest in his father's place, shall make  atonement , and put on the linen clothes, the holy garments;  then he shall make  atonement  for the Holy  Sanctuary, and he shall make  atonement  for the tabernacle of meeting and for the altar, and he shall make  atonement  for the priests and for all the people of the assembly.  This shall be an everlasting statute for you, to make  atonement  for the children of Israel, for all their sins, once a year." Note that this special day of atonement was in addition to the daily atonement made for the people throughout the year. Thus it must have special significance in the Plan of Salvation God illustrated through the sanctuary services.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Ron,

7 hours ago, Ron Lambert said:

We know the "cleansing of the sanctuary" refers to the Day of Atonement

 

I believe that Daniel 8 and 9 have two levels. The first most obvious is the Temple in Jerusalem, where worship was available until the destruction in AD 70. This worship is to be restored in the 1000 years. The second level is individual worship and Daniel 9 concentrates on the work of Jesus in establishing salvation, to bring in everlasting righteousness Daniel 9:24. Thus Daniel 8 and 9 have a sacrificial basis and even the Kingdoms are depicted by a ram and a goat, sacrificial animals, not by wild beasts, even though these animals are depicted in military conflict.

 

What was accomplished in Jesus was the establishment of the true Temple of God. Jesus is the one in whom God fully dwells, and even in his ministry he was God’s dwelling place. Now that he is perfected through death and resurrection, there is no imperfection in him, nothing to be cleansed. What is needed to be cleansed is his disciples, then the nations of the earth in the Kingdom Isaiah 2:1-4, and this includes the nation of Israel, those in the land and those scattered amongst the nations Micah 4:1-8. Jerusalem also needs to be cleansed of all its false worship and other abominations, and the Temple built.

 

I am unfamiliar with the full scope of the SDA view of 1844, but the following is a brief response to my impression of their teaching. I cannot accept that there is anything unclean in heaven. Jesus is the Temple and he was cleansed in his death and resurrection. The concept of some form of ongoing judgement (?) from 1844 to the present, and the main function of the saints as king/priests during the 1000 years is also some form of judging, to me seems not valid and strange. God’s judgements are simple and sure, revealing the hearts of men in one or two brief statements or questions. For example with Adam and Eve, and other examples. I believe that the saints are real king/priests to the mortal nations during the 1000 years, here, upon the earth Isaiah 2:1-4.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[Ron Lambert]

Trevor, you are quibbling about the term "cleansing" in connection with the sanctuary in Heaven.

There remains uncleanness in the entire universe as long as sin and sinners exist. The records of all the sins of mankind are recorded in Heaven. These can only be cleansed when there is a final judgment that will dispense with all of these on the part of God's people, and return the final responsibility for sin upon the heads of the originator of sin and all who clung to it, rather than trust in God.

The Apostle Peter explicitly said there will be a Judgment even after the Cross: "For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And if it is with difficulty that the righteous is saved, what will become of the godless man and the sinner? Therefore, let those also who suffer according to the will of God entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right." (1 Peter 4:17-19)

Jesus told the Church of Philadelphia that all the world will be tested in the time of the end: "Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth.  I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, in order that no one take your crown." (Rev. 3:10, 11; NASB)

One of the final warning messages to be given to the world before the end comes includes a warning that the time of Judgment IS COME: "Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." (Rev. 14:7) Note that this quotes from the fourth commandment.

Throughout the Old Testament, the Hebrew Word bachan is used to refer to the investigative judgment of God that must take place before He executes sentence. According to Thayer's Bible Dictionary, this word is used 29 times. It is defined as meaning things relating to judgment:

Quote

AV - try 19, prove 7, examine 1, tempt 1, trial 1; 291) to examine, try, prove

1a) (Qal)
1a1) to examine, scrutinise
1a2) to test, prove, try (of gold, persons, the heart, man of God)
1b) (Niphal) to be tried, proved
1c) (Pual) to make a trial

Here is an example of bachan used in a Bible passage: "The Lord is in His holy temple; the Lord's throne is in heaven; His eyes behold, His eyelids test the sons of men. The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, And the one who loves violence His soul hates. Upon the wicked He will rain snares; Fire and brimstone and burning wind will be the portion of their cup. For the Lord is righteous; He loves righteousness; The upright will behold His face." (Psalms 11:4-7; NASB) The highlighted words translated "test" and "tests," are bachan in the original Hebrew. Thus the idea of an investigative Judgment in Heaven that takes place for all the inhabitants of the world, righteous and wicked, before the punishments of "fire and brimstone and burning wind" are meted out, is clearly presented.

I would also point to Revelation chapter five, which clearly presents an investigative judgment, where judicial inquiry is made to find someone worthy to open the book. At first no one is found among men--but then Jesus, the Lamb of God, is found to be a man worthy to open the book. This chapter gives us encouragement and great hope for the Judgment.

In Daniel 7:10, 11, it is after "the judgment was set and the books were opened," that "the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame." Thus for the faithful souls who have constituted God's church from the beginning, the pre-Advent investigative Judgment is the crowning climax that brings final victory!

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Ron,

2 hours ago, Ron Lambert said:

There remains uncleanness in the entire universe as long as sin and sinners exist. The records of all the sins of mankind are recorded in Heaven.

I do not believe any part of heaven needs cleansing. Christ’s sacrifice achieved all the cleansing required, once for all. This sacrifice needs to flow on throughout the earth, to overcome all the effects of sin until this earth is filled with God’s glory Numbers 14:21.

As far as the Day of Atonement, the following seems to have some relevance. It speaks that each year the High Priest entered the Most Holy, but the forgiveness of sins was not effective with the blood of animals:

Hebrews 10:1-4 (KJV): 1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

In contrast to a yearly typical sacrifice and entering the Most Holy, Jesus made one sacrifice for sins and entered heaven. All the cleansing necessary was accomplished in that one sacrifice. There is no uncleanness in heaven, as he entered the true Most Holy. We now await the return of Jesus to save those who have an earnest desire for his return:

Hebrews 9:23-28 (KJV): 23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

I assume that you teach that some sort of judging process started in 1844, but the Scriptures simply teach that we will stand before the Judgement Seat when Jesus returns, when he comes to establish his Kingdom upon the earth. Jesus does not need 170 years for something he can determine in an instant:

2 Timothy 4:1,6-8 (KJV): 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Kind regards Trevor

 

[Ron Lambert]

Hi Trevor,

What is uncleanness? You are arbitrarily asserting your belief that "uncleanness" cannot exist in Heaven. But what about when Lucifer was still in Heaven, and had not been cast out, yet? For a time, he was actively sinning--in Heaven! Recruiting one third of the angels to join with him in rebellion against God. There was war in Heaven! (Rev. 12:7.) And the continuing fact that sin exists on earth must have an effect in Heaven as well, at least in what Scripture calls the "books" of Judgment (see Daniel 7:10). The angels of God constantly minister to us, who are the heirs of salvation (see Heb. 1:14), thus they are constantly having to deal with our sins, helping us in our struggles to overcome sin, and resist the temptations of the enemy, and restraining the devils so they are limited in their power to harm us. Heaven surely cannot be clean in every sense as long as this continues. The angels in Heaven, and Jesus as our Mediator and High Priest, and the Holy Spirit who directs the angels, must continually labor under the burden of our sinning that we continue to place upon them. It is the Judgment that will end this.

It is important to note the purpose of the Judgment. It is not just to clear us of all charges, now and forever. It is also to establish beyond all doubt in the mind of any creature that God is innocent of all the false charges made against Him by Satan. So in a sense, God Himself is on trial. Theologians call this concept "theodicy." The time will come when "Every knee shall bow to Me,  And every tongue shall confess to God." (Romans 14:11) Even Lucifer himself will confess that God is just, and that all the accusations he made against God have been proven false. This will not constitute genuine repentance, only an admission of the undeniable. But God, who values the freedom of choice of His creatures so highly, wishes for every conceivable question to be answered in the minds of all creatures, now and throughout all the future. This is how He will ensure the security of the universe forever from any future possibility of a new rise of sin. "What do you conspire against the Lord?  He will make an utter end of it.  Affliction will not rise up a second time." (Nahum 1:9) This is how God does things.

[TrevorL]

 

Greetings again Ron,

14 hours ago, Ron Lambert said:

What is uncleanness? You are arbitrarily asserting your belief that "uncleanness" cannot exist in Heaven. But what about when Lucifer was still in Heaven, and had not been cast out, yet? For a time, he was actively sinning--in Heaven! Recruiting one third of the angels to join with him in rebellion against God. There was war in Heaven! (Rev. 12:7.)

I have a different perspective to what you present here. Firstly the only occurrence of the word Lucifer is in Isaiah 14:12 and this is describing the King of Babylon. Secondly I believe that Revelation 12 is symbolic, and that the war was in the political heavens of the Roman Empire. Seeing you underline the word war, what sort of war do you envisage, physical (using what sort of instruments? Bows and arrows, guns, nuclear?) or verbal? If Revelation 12 is literal, what do you make of a woman clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet and the many other details?

My summary of the events of 1844 and Daniel 8 is that there were some amongst the Millerites, and others not fully associated with the Millerites, who accepted William Miller’s suggestion concerning 1843. Please refer to SDAs Answer Questions on Doctrine page 478. Of the three groups, with different views, (and the present SDA view was not represented), I agree with those who looked for the return of the Jews to their land and their conversion when Christ appeared. This group would be united in prayer, like Daniel after the 70 years, seeking for God to start the process of cleansing of the land and Jerusalem. Thus 1843 (or 1844) represents the start of this process, and any reading of Ezra and Nehemiah shows that this can be a very slow process. I have some articles and letters recording a few of this group’s expectations at that time, both in the US and England. I also consider the 2300 years to also have another major start in BC 334-333 and ending in AD 1967.

Getting back to the topic of this thread, the seven seals, do you agree in general with the SDA view of the First Seal mentioned in the book Daniel and Revelation by Uriah Smith page 435? I agree in part, but it has been suggested that the white horse could represent the state of the Roman Empire at peace from AD 96-183, while the second seal is the change to a state of internal or civil war from AD 183-211. This view of the second seal differs from the book by Uriah Smith. You did not answer if you regard the seals sequential, each seal being opened one after the other, starting from the time of John. I also believe the trumpets to then follow, and then the vials. In effect the seven trumpets are part of the seventh seal, contained within an extended period, and similarly the vials are contained in the seventh trumpet period. All the seventh portions thus ending together with the coming of Jesus.

Kind regards Trevor

[Ron Lambert]

 

Hi Trevor,

Isaiah 14:12 mentions Lucifer as the power behind the throne of Babylon. The earthly king of Babylon never fell from heaven. The word translated Lucifer means morning star, and is sometimes translated that way. This implies that the one who became Satan was the first angel God created. Further, this suggests that God, who knew Lucifer would invent sin, created him first, to deal with the sin problem ASAP. God was proactive in the best sense. So the universe is not that old. Lucifer was not around for billions of years before he decided to doubt God and rebel against Him. I believe there is overwhelming scientific evidence that confirms the universe is not much more than 12,000 years old.

Similarly, in Ezekiel 28:12-19, it starts out addressed to the king of Tyre, but then says things that could never have applied to the earthly king of Tyre, such as: “You were in Eden, the garden of God;” (v.12) and “"You were the anointed cherub who covers;” (v. 14) and “You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,  Till iniquity was found in you.” (v. 15)

As for war in Heaven, we are not told what sort of weapons the angels used in fighting their war in Heaven. Angels have tremendous power. One angel killed 185,000 Assyrian soldiers in one night. (2 Kings 19:35) Jesus said there was war in Heaven. He said that the rebel angels and the angels loyal to God, led by Michael, fought. Rev. 12:7. That establishes the fact. I see no need to go beyond that.

In Daniel 8:11, we are told that the little horn “magnified himself even to the prince of the host,” and “the place of his sanctuary was cast down.” The Prince of the Host is in Heaven. The place of the earthly sanctuary was never “cast down” by the Grecians, or by anyone else after Babylon destroyed the earthly sanctuary and then it was rebuilt in the time of the Persians—until the Romans did it in 70 A.D.

I have no burden to defend the Millerites, who were wrong about some things, nor to defend Uriah Smith, who was wrong about many things. Much of what he and early Adventists did was simply adopt much of the interpretations of prophecy originated by the early Protestants, with a few minor changes. But the early Protestants did not use sound methods of interpretation of Bible prophecy. They latched on to the notion that the “smoke” in Revelation nine was gunsmoke from Moslem Calvary. Which was simply a private interpretation. Had they used Scripture to define all the prophetic symbols, they would have seen that smoke is a prophetic symbol for manifestation of supernatural power, with context indicating whether it is divine or satanic. In Rev. nine, it represents satanic spiritualism hijacking the various churches that have fallen from grace by rejecting God’s final, end-time messages of warning.

As for the traditional, long time SDA view of the timing of the seven seals, I do take exception to it. As I said, sound methods of interpretation of Bible prophecy require that we allow context to inform us as to when in history to apply any given prophecy, and the simple fact is that the seven seals were opened after the Judgment had begun in Revelation chapter five, therefore the seals absolutely cannot be applied until after the Judgment has begun. The Judgment began in 1844. (The Millerites originally said 1843, but they at first failed to take into account that there was no year zero, 1 B.C. was followed by 1 A.D.) So the first seal absolutely did not come in the time of John. The seven seals began to be opened after 1844.

In my book, Genuine New Light From Revelation and Daniel, I set forth the way the prophecies of the first four seals are perfectly well fulfilled in history from 1844 to the present.

Of course the second seal is opened after the first seal, the third after the second, etc. We are now living in the time of the fourth seal. I see the fifth seal as symbolizing the beginning of the Judgment of the Living, which is also when the seven trumpets begin sounding. Again, I explain this in detail in my book, which is available as an ebook from Amazon: Link: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MY3I88W

Best Wishes,

Ron Lambert

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Ron,

4 hours ago, Ron Lambert said:

Isaiah 14:12 mentions Lucifer as the power behind the throne of Babylon.

I can appreciate your perspective, but I consider that Isaiah uses the term Lucifer, morning star, as figurative language describing the King of Babylon describing in the extended figurative context his ambitions, but he was only a man Isaiah 14:16. This prophecy could be describing the King of Assyria, who tried to capture Jerusalem, but his army was destroyed, and he was soon after murdered.

 

4 hours ago, Ron Lambert said:

Similarly, in Ezekiel 28:12-19, it starts out addressed to the king of Tyre, but then says things that could never have applied to the earthly king of Tyre

Again, figurative language concerning the King of Tyre.

 

4 hours ago, Ron Lambert said:

As for war in Heaven, we are not told what sort of weapons the angels used in fighting their war in Heaven. Angels have tremendous power. One angel killed 185,000 Assyrian soldiers in one night. (2 Kings 19:35) Jesus said there was war in Heaven. He said that the rebel angels and the angels loyal to God, led by Michael, fought. Rev. 12:7. That establishes the fact. I see no need to go beyond that.

I consider Revelation 12 speaks of the ascendancy of Constantine in AD 312, and some of the events after this.

 

4 hours ago, Ron Lambert said:

In Daniel 8:11, we are told that the little horn “magnified himself even to the prince of the host,” and “the place of his sanctuary was cast down.” The Prince of the Host is in Heaven. The place of the earthly sanctuary was never “cast down” by the Grecians, or by anyone else after Babylon destroyed the earthly sanctuary and then it was rebuilt in the time of the Persians—until the Romans did it in 70 A.D.

I consider that the little horn that developed out of one of the four horns is the Roman power, especially as it developed in Asia Minor slowly, then took over the whole area. It was this power that stood up against Jesus and crucified him. It was this same power that destroyed the Temple in AD 70 and thus Daniel 8:11-12 is speaking of the Romans not the Greeks. Daniel 9:26 is speaking of the crucifixion and the destruction of the Temple and is thus similar to and giving more detail to Daniel 8:11-12.

 

4 hours ago, Ron Lambert said:

As I said, sound methods of interpretation of Bible prophecy require that we allow context to inform us as to when in history to apply any given prophecy, and the simple fact is that the seven seals were opened after the Judgment had begun in Revelation chapter five, therefore the seals absolutely cannot be applied until after the Judgment has begun. The Judgment began in 1844.

As stated before, I consider Revelation 4 and 5 to be similar to Isaiah 2:1-4 and 6:1 where the final picture of the Kingdom and Christ enthroned is given first, and then the details of the events leading up to that final vision is given. Thus the seals, trumpets and vials are sequential after AD 96, and precede the coming of Christ in the 6^th Vial. I believe we Are now in the 6^th Vial period, well past the 4^th Seal period. Your suggestion would teach that the faithful from AD 96 to AD 1844 had no prophetical events that they could appreciate. It was all future to them and yet Jesus promised that his servants would understand the coming events Revelation 1:1.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[Ron Lambert]

Trevor, it appears to me that you are just arbitrarily choosing what you want to believe, rather than let the Spirit Who inspired Scripture speak His Own Mind in a clear and consistent manner.

So I will just comment on your last statement: "Your suggestion would teach that the faithful from AD 96 to AD 1844 had no prophetical events that they could appreciate. It was all future to them and yet Jesus promised that his servants would understand the coming events Revelation 1:1."

Paul predicted a great apostasy yet to come in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 (NKJV):

"3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day [the Day of Christ--v. 2] will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,  4  who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.  5  Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?  6  And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.  7  For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.  8  And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.  9  The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,  10  and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.  11  And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,  12  that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

Note also that Paul here is referring to the prophecy of Daniel 11:35-37.

And then there was the time prophecy of Daniel 7:25, which predicted that a great blow would be struck against the Papacy in 1798 (the year that Napoleon's forces conquered the Papacy and took the Pope prisoner), which was so clear that even Sir Isaac Newton picked up on it and predicted it ahead of time.

In Revelation 1:1, Jesus says literally that the things He was speaking of would take place en takei, that is, "with speed." In other words, once the events in this prophecy began to occur, they would take place rapidly, in a single generation. Notice that Revelation speaks of the Pre-Advent Judgment, the final warning messages to all the world, the final conflict between Good and Evil, the seven last plagues, and the Second Coming of Christ. These were not things that were to take place shortly after John's day. Even the letters to the seven churches properly apply to the entire scope of Christendom today as the time of the Judgment of the Living is approaching.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Ron,

13 hours ago, Ron Lambert said:

And then there was the time prophecy of Daniel 7:25, which predicted that a great blow would be struck against the Papacy in 1798 (the year that Napoleon's forces conquered the Papacy and took the Pope prisoner), which was so clear that even Sir Isaac Newton picked up on it and predicted it ahead of time.

It is interesting that you mention Isaac Newton. He accepted the general understanding of the 6 Seals that was prevalent in his time. The following understanding was accepted by many commentators and expositors as per the following:

!st Seal: The Gospel era in the 1st Century

2nd – 4th Seals: The subsequent eras of war and bloodshed with the civil wars of the Roman Empire, then famine and then plague in the 2nd and 3rd Centuries

5th Seal: The persecutions under Emperor Diocletian at the end of the 3rd and the beginning of the 4th Centuries

6th Seal: The overthrow of paganism by Constantine following AD 312

All of these are sequential, and this conforms to the figure of one seal being opened after the other.

 

The following is a suggested list of those who contributed to this view before Isaac Newton:

1605 Thomas Brightman; 1637 Dord Dutch Bible; 1639 John Cotton; 1640 Joseph Mede; 1654 Thomas Goodwin; 1657 James Durham; 1659 Hezekiah Holland; 1663 Henry More; 1685 Matthew Poole; 1687 Pierre Jurieu; 1701 Robert Fleming; 1706 William Whiston; 1700s Adam Clarke; 1712 Matthew Henry; 1720 Charles Dabuz; 1727 Isaac Newton.

Kind regards Trevor

[Ron Lambert]

It does not matter one bit who or how many subscribed to any particular view. The only thing that matters is that sound principles of interpretation of prophecy are employed--which are allowing the Bible alone to define all its prophetic symbols, allowing the Bible itself to indicate by context when in history the prophecies apply, and allowing the Bible to make it clear what passages are symbolic, and what passages are to be taken as literal or merely metaphoric, based on examples and precedents in the Bible. If this is not done, then what results can only be a "private interpretation," forbidden by 2 Peter 1:20. The opinion of man matters nothing. All that matters is what God intends in His prophecies, and that can only be determined by setting aside all human opinion and allowing the Word of God to interpret itself.

Sir Isaac Newton was not the only person who predicted well in advance that something dire would happen to the Papacy around the end of the 18th century, based on Daniel 7:25. Even those who were not clear on sound methods of interpretation could see that, it was so clear and obvious.

As for those who subscribed to the past ages application of the seven seals, they were just going by what had become a traditional view. They never even considered allowing the context of Rev. 5 to inform them of when the seals prophecies should be applied.

By the way, the "Deadly Wound" spoken of in Revelation 13 is not the same event that Daniel 7:25 predicted that was fulfilled in 1798. The end-time Deadly Wound is yet in our future--and it will be followed by a seemingly miraculous recovery, that will lead all the world to wonder after the beast and follow it--things that did not happen in 1798.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Ron,

6 hours ago, Ron Lambert said:

As for those who subscribed to the past ages application of the seven seals, they were just going by what had become a traditional view. They never even considered allowing the context of Rev. 5 to inform them of when the seals prophecies should be applied.

I find no difficulty in others understanding the visions, and some of these may have been amongst God’s faithful. Many for example agree on the four empires of Daniel 2, even a historian, Rollin mentions this in his Ancient History. I will repeat what I said before, I consider Revelation 4 and 5 to be similar to Isaiah 2:1-4 and 6:1 where the final picture of the Kingdom and Christ enthroned is given first, and then the details of the events leading up to that final vision is given. Thus the seals, trumpets and vials are sequential after AD 96, and precede the coming of Christ in the 6^th Vial.

 

My impression is that you consider Revelation 4:2 and 5:1 where we have a vision of one sitting upon the throne is speaking of what occurred in 1844, that Jesus took up a position to start some judgement process. You then conclude that the seals must be after 1844. I do not know how you explain the 24 elders around the throne in Revelation 4:4 wearing crowns of gold 2 Timothy 4:8, who are identified as amongst the redeemed Revelation 5:8-10. Also there is a strong link between Revelation 4:6-8; 5:8-10 and Isaiah 6:1-3 where the four living creatures are similar to the seraphim, praising the enthroned Jesus in the same words and uniquely having six wings. Revelation 5:8-10 also identify these living creatures as among the redeemed and made kings and priests for the 1000 years. So I do not know if you believe that the faithful or some of the faithful were gathered to Jesus in heaven in 1844, or how you understand this context before the opening of the seals.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[Ron Lambert]

Trevor, I am glad that you brought this up.

Many people have supposed that the 24 elders in Rev. 5 are humans, and some have speculated that their number might include Enoch and Elijah, who were translated to Heaven without seeing death; Moses, who was resurrected and taken to Heaven shortly after His death; and 21 more saints who were presumably the ones who were resurrected at the same time that Jesus was resurrected (see Matthew 27:52, 53).

However, the only reason anyone has ever thought that these 24 elders were human was because of the rendering in the King James Version in Revelation 5:9, 10, which reads: “for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.” This rendering is based on only a few ancient manuscripts that have the second person pronoun in verse ten (the two pronouns in verse nine are not in the text; they are inferred from the one in verse ten). But other ancient manuscripts do NOT have the second person pronoun in verse ten; the absence grammatically implies that the third person is to be understood in verse ten.

Most modern translations go by these other manuscripts, and render the passage something like: “for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation....and You have made them to be kings and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.” (See for example the NASB, NRSV, NIV.) This latter rendering differentiates the 24 elders from humanity.

We should also take due cognizance of a point that many people overlook: it is not just the 24 elders who sing this song. Revelation 5:8, 9 tells us “the four beasts and four and twenty elders….sung a new song….” The four beasts obviously are not humans. Since only humans could sing “Thou hast redeemed us,” therefore the 24 elders would not have said “us” together with the non-human “four beasts” in their song which they sang together. Of logical necessity they could only have sung with the four beasts “Thou hast redeemed them….”

This council of 24 elders is obviously depicted as occupying a position of authority in Heaven. Since they are enthroned and wearing crowns prior to the conclusion of the Judgment of humanity (see Revelation 4:4), and in fact appear to preside over that judgment, it would be inappropriate for them to be humans presiding over their own judgment! Jesus promised those in His church who would be overcomers: “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.” (Revelation 3:21) Note the future tense in which the promise is given.

The Book of Job hints that there are other intelligent races that God has created, in addition to humanity and the angels. Notice these words: “Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?...When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?” (Job 38:4a, 7) "Stars" are a commonly used Biblical metaphor and prophetic symbol for angels. Adam, the first human, is called “the son of God” in Scripture (see Luke 3:38). When the foundations of the earth were laid, Adam had not been created yet. So who were these “sons of God?” They must have been other “Adams,” of other races, on other worlds that had already been created. It is likely that it is from their number that the 24 elders were selected, to occupy high positions in the government of God’s Creation.

It is true that Hebrew poetry is often characterized by parallelism, where a thought is repeated. However, thoughts are often only similar, showing two things that are complementary. Angels of course may reasonably be called "sons of God." But the Bible does not usually call them this. Angels are not born, thus are neither sons nor daughters. The Bible does call Adam a son of God. Thus it is clearly more accurate Biblically to differentiate the two, and recognize that in Job 38:7, angels as well as patriarchs of worlds—like Adam—are being set in parallel to each other as complementary halves of a conceptual whole.

Also we should note that the "morning stars" or angels are said to have "sang together," while the "sons of God" did something different--they "shouted for joy." This also indicates to us that we should take these two groups of entities, "morning stars" and "sons of God," as two separate types of beings that are only complementary, not identical, because their actions are different, though united in purpose.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Ron,

5 hours ago, Ron Lambert said:

I am glad that you brought this up.

Many people have supposed that the 24 elders in Rev. 5 are humans, and some have speculated that their number might include Enoch and Elijah, who were translated to Heaven without seeing death; Moses, who was resurrected and taken to Heaven shortly after His death; and 21 more saints who were presumably the ones who were resurrected at the same time that Jesus was resurrected (see Matthew 27:52, 53).

However, the only reason anyone has ever thought that these 24 elders were human was because of the rendering in the King James Version in Revelation 5:9, 10, which reads: “for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.”

I appreciate your detailed response. To suggest that the only reason that the 24 elders are understood as human ignores the view that I have presented that the vision of the throne is similar to Isaiah 2:1-4 and Isaiah 6:1-3. I suggest that the 24 elders is based upon the structure of the Kingdom which David established, where the various divisions of the sons of Aaron were 24, and the singers were also 24 Levites. If as I believe that the vision is Jesus enthroned in the Kingdom, then the elders are human who have been resurrected and glorified, and thus they are part of the redeemed. My impression is that 12 of these elders are the twelve Apostles.

 

5 hours ago, Ron Lambert said:

We should also take due cognizance of a point that many people overlook: it is not just the 24 elders who sing this song. Revelation 5:8, 9 tells us “the four beasts and four and twenty elders….sung a new song….” The four beasts obviously are not humans. Since only humans could sing “Thou hast redeemed us,” therefore the 24 elders would not have said “us” together with the non-human “four beasts” in their song which they sang together. Of logical necessity they could only have sung with the four beasts “Thou hast redeemed them….”

I do not know your perspective on the theme of cherubim, seraphim and living creatures or beasts. My understanding is that the Biblical teaching is that the cherubim is a lesson concerning the theme of the development of God’s character amongst the faithful, and the greatest example of this is Jesus, the lion of the tribe of Judah. As well as being the king, he is also the servant, the Divine being and the man or priest corresponding to the faces of the cherubim. Thus the glorified faithful are the cherubim of the Age to Come. I believe that even the seraphim of Isaiah 6 is fulfilled in Jesus, especially in John 3:14-16 and John 12. There are a number of layers in Isaiah 6 as it speaks of Isaiah’s ministry, but especially that of Jesus. The initial vision of Isaiah 6:1 is the final result, Jesus enthroned as the true King / Priest in contrast to Uzziah’s usurpation.

Kind regards Trevor

 

[Ron Lambert]

The view popular among many churches that people become angels when they die is not a part of Biblical religion. If anything, it comes from pagan mysticism. And I repeat, how could the four beast sing that God has redeemed US? Since some of the most ancient manuscripts do NOT have the second person plural pronoun in Rev. 5:9,10, it appears most likely that at some point some scribe took it upon himself to add the pronoun, thinking (wrongly) that he was making things clearer; and the KJV unfortunately went by those manuscripts that copied from that errant scribe. Most modern translations go by the manuscripts that do NOT have the pronoun. For example the New American Standard Bible: "9 And they sang a new song, saying,  'Worthy art Thou to take the book, and to break its seals; for Thou wast slain, and didst purchase for God with Thy blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. 10 And Thou hast made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.'" The rules of New Testament Greek grammar dictate that in the absence of a personal pronoun, third person plural is to be assumed. "Men" is also properly implied.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Ron,

2 hours ago, Ron Lambert said:

The view popular among many churches that people become angels when they die is not a part of Biblical religion. If anything, it comes from pagan mysticism.

I do not believe this either. I believe that we sleep in the dust of the earth until the return of Jesus. Therefore the redeemed of Revelation 4 and 5 are these redeemed faithful, the anti-typical or real cherubim.

During the 1000 years the redeemed faithful believers will replace the function of the Angelic Cherubim who preserved the way of the tree of life at the gate of the Garden of Eden Genesis 3:24.

Kind regards Trevor

[Ron Lambert]

Trevor, there is no mention of cherubim in the entire book of Revelation. Nor is there any indication that the mention of cherubim in Genesis 3:24 is symbolic. Everything else in the passage is literal narrative. As for redeemed humans replacing angels in any official positions--that would be (1) unnecessary, and (2) complete speculation. The angels have the jobs given to them since before the creation of life on earth. They no longer have to minister as protectors and guides to the saints (Heb. 1:14), since the latter have been delivered from the corrupted earth and their struggles with sin. Other than that, I do not know of any change of offices for any of the angels. The Redeemed of earth, especially those who are called the 144,000 (which is a symbolic number), are said to "follow the Lamb wherever He goes." (Rev. 14:14; NKJV) This is a NEW office or position of responsibility. It goes with the new office of sharing a seat with Christ on His throne (Rev. 3:21). No angel ever held this position. It is something new that has been added, because in order to save humanity, Christ had to become humanity. Now wherever Christ is, there we are, because we are in Him. The very thing that Satan thought to take by force, God has chosen to give freely to the least deserving of his intelligent creatures. Forever the Redeemed of earth will have as their mission being witnesses of the grace of God to the entire universe. Perhaps God will resume His work of populating the universe with more and more life forms, more and more intelligent races (remember that the universe is still relatively young, only about 12,000 years at most); then the Redeemed of earth will witness to all the new peoples of their experiences, to guarantee that sin never arises again.