When Do the Seven Seals Really Apply?

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Ron,

11 hours ago, Ron Lambert said:

there is no mention of cherubim in the entire book of Revelation. Nor is there any indication that the mention of cherubim in Genesis 3:24 is symbolic. Everything else in the passage is literal narrative.

The word beasts is found in Revelation 4, and this is translated in the NASB as living creatures:

Revelation 4:6–8 (AV): ⁶ And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. ⁷ And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle. ⁸ And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Now notice that these four living creatures are respectively like a lion, a calf, a man and an eagle.

Now in Ezekiel 1 we also have living creatures, but there is a difference that each one had four faces:

Ezekiel 1:5–11 (AV): ⁵ Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man. ⁶ And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings. ⁷ And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf’s foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass. ⁸ And they had the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings. ⁹ Their wings were joined one to another; they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward. ¹⁰ As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle. ¹¹ Thus were their faces: and their wings were stretched upward; two wings of every one were joined one to another, and two covered their bodies.

The following is how I understand a few aspects of this subject. Now either these living creatures in Revelation 4 and Ezekiel 1 are actual creatures, and have these variations, but my opinion is that they are symbolic creatures. My main reason is partly based upon the variations, different numbers of faces, and wings, but mainly I do not accept that God has made creatures with four heads, of a lion, calf, man and eagle. The same living creatures appear again in Ezekiel 10 and here they are called cherubim. There is a fair amount of interaction with the cherubim of Ezekiel 10, and I believe that there was interaction with the cherubim in Genesis 3:24. In a sense the angels acting as cherubim were part of the worship after the fall.

11 hours ago, Ron Lambert said:

As for redeemed humans replacing angels in any official positions--that would be (1) unnecessary, and (2) complete speculation. The angels have the jobs given to them since before the creation of life on earth.

Hebrews 2:5–8 (AV): ⁵ For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. ⁶ But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? ⁷ Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: ⁸ Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

The inference I take from verse 5 is that the present era was placed into the hands of the angels, but the future age is to be under Jesus as Psalm 8 indicates. Psalm 8 speaks of the transfer of dominion from the angels to the Son of Man, Jesus. Jesus fulfils the role from which Adam fell Genesis 1:26-27. He will reign over the earth from Jerusalem during the 1000 years Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:1-8, Daniel 2:35,44 and Zechariah 14.

Kind regards Trevor

[Ron Lambert]

This is only my speculation, but I suspect that the four beasts/creatures associated with God's throne are pilots (God's throne is mobile, described in Ezekiel as "wheels within wheels," and I suspect it might seem like a vast spaceship. This was suggested in a very interesting way in the Nicholas Cage movie, Knowing). I also suspect that the four beasts/creatures are representatives of the four main types of intelligent races God has created on various planets. In other words, somewhere there are people who resemble lions, others resemble eagles, etc. Apparently there are no bug-eyed insectoids. But that might change when God resumes His work of creation, to fill the vast universe that remains to be filled.

The Son of God, before His incarnation as a human, was Michael the "Archangel"--which is a title that means "chief of the angels." So He always had dominion over the angels. This is why Lucifer had to wage war against the Son of God, he wanted to throw off Christ's dominion.

Jesus will reign over the New Earth from Jerusalem, AFTER it comes "down from God out of Heaven," forever. The thousand years He will spend mostly with the Redeemed in Heaven, where the New Jerusalem will be until the earth is remade and the city comes down to become the new capital of the universe, and the place of God's throne. During the thousand years, the saints will be able to review all the history of sin and how God has dealt with it, satisfying themselves that God is completely just in every judgment He has made. As Paul stated in 1 Cor. 6:3 (NKJV): "Do you not know that we shall judge angels?" So we will see for ourselves the history of Lucifer who became Satan, and the third of the angels who joined him in rebellion against the Son of God. We will be able to see for ourselves concerning humans, why someone is not there that we thought would be there, and why someone is there that we thought would not be--like some who died knowing Saul before he became Paul, will want to learn about the murderer who persecuted the early church, and how the grace of God changed him and made him into the Apostle to the Gentiles. Imagine the tearful meetings between these people and Paul.

By the way, just a side note--the Garden of Eden was removed from the Earth prior to the global Flood of Noah's time, and now is the "Central Park" for the New Jerusalem. We will all have cause to visit it, because the Tree of Life is there.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Ron,

 

17 hours ago, Ron Lambert said:

This is only my speculation, but I suspect that the four beasts/creatures associated with God's throne are pilots (God's throne is mobile, described in Ezekiel as "wheels within wheels," and I suspect it might seem like a vast spaceship. This was suggested in a very interesting way in the Nicholas Cage movie, Knowing). I also suspect that the four beasts/creatures are representatives of the four main types of intelligent races God has created on various planets. In other words, somewhere there are people who resemble lions, others resemble eagles, etc. Apparently there are no bug-eyed insectoids. But that might change when God resumes His work of creation, to fill the vast universe that remains to be filled.

I prefer to accept the Bible interpretation of the symbols wherever possible, rather than mythology, science fiction, Hollywood (especially) or human speculation. For example the symbol of the calf or ox represents a servant, and this is partly based on Jesus’ teaching concerning the double yoke that he invites us to share to learn from him:

Matthew 11:28-30 (KJV): ²⁸ Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. ²⁹ Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. ³⁰ For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

 

Jesus is presented to us as God’s Servant in the Servant prophecies in Isaiah, highlighted by the four Servant Songs, where God in the 1st and 4th calls upon us to “Behold My Servant”. The 3rd also alludes to the servant in Israel who was to be freed, but chooses to stay with his master and serve, and as a result has his ear opened with an awl. Jesus was always attentive to His Master’s word and was obedient unto death.

 

Paul in 2 Timothy 2:22-26 bases his advice to Timothy and to us on the 1st Servant Song, teaching us how to become true servants to God the Father, and His Son the Lord Jesus Christ. This advice together with Christ’s call in Matthew 11:28-30 teaches us that the living creatures who surround Christ’s throne in the future will be the faithful who have become the servants of God and His Christ.

 

The theme of the cherubim is also given throughout the OT and the fact that they are incorporated in the Ark in the Most Holy Place, and embroidered in the vail, which is Christ’s flesh, teaches that the cherubim have their fulfillment in Christ, and in those who are included in Christ’s body. Jesus has become the Most Holy. All the other items of the furniture and functions of the Tabernacle find their fulfillment in Christ.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[Ron Lambert]

Trevor, the passages you cite to indicate a symbolic meaning for the the four beasts, in particular the ox being interpreted by passages where Jesus talks about taking His "yoke" upon us, is very strained. It is a logical leap too far for me to accept. When  Jesus talked about a yoke, He was using a metaphor. Metaphors may sometimes inform us about prophetic symbols (the prophetic symbol of a mountain, may also be seen as a metaphor, because mountains dominate the landscape, like empires do; similarly the prophetic symbols of wild beasts may also be seen as metaphors by which God is implying satirically that nations that engage in warfare are behaving like wild animals). But metaphors are not prophetic symbols in every case. Sometimes metaphors are just normal figures of speech based on analogies, and should be taken no further than poetic devices. Jesus likens us to sheep, and Himself to being our shepherd. That does not mean that wherever we see sheep or lambs in Bible prophecy, those are prophetic symbols that mean sheep are some particular race of people. There is more to it than that.

I do not see how the depiction of cherubim in the sanctuary point toward Christ as types. The most straightforward interpretation is that they depict literal angels, who are also involved in God's Plan of Salvation for us. They are witnesses in the Judgment, as clearly presented in Revelation chapters four and five. The idea that the cherubim could ever become irrelevant when type meets anti-type, is not possible because they are not types. Angels are a distinct order of being, an intelligent race created before mankind, and entirely separate from mankind. Angels are real enough that they actually fought a war in Heaven, when Satan and his cohorts sought to throw off the authority of the Son of God.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Ron,

37 minutes ago, Ron Lambert said:

I do not see how the depiction of cherubim in the sanctuary point toward Christ as types. The most straightforward interpretation is that they depict literal angels, who are also involved in God's Plan of Salvation for us.

I would be interested in your understanding of why Jesus is called the Lion of the tribe of Judah:

Revelation 5:5 (AV): And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

One suggestion is that the four symbols were used as the banner for the tribal groups, Lion for Judah, Eagle for Dan, Ox for Ephraim and Man for Reuben.

Ezekiel 1:5–12 (AV): ⁵ Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man. ⁶ And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings. ⁷ And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf’s foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass. ⁸ And they had the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings. ⁹ Their wings were joined one to another; they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward. ¹⁰ As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle. ¹¹ Thus were their faces: and their wings were stretched upward; two wings of every one were joined one to another, and two covered their bodies. ¹² And they went every one straight forward: whither the spirit was to go, they went; and they turned not when they went.

I could repeat and emphasise each of the features of the cherubim mentioned and underlined above. I do not believe that God has created an angelic breed like the above, different in some respects to other mentions of cherubim elsewhere. I will leave you to speculate whether God will populate a future planet with this sort of cherubim with four faces each, calves feet, wings outstretched and touching two of the other three cherubim, and only having a motion in a straight line. For my understanding these are symbolic, and part of a theme concerning cherubim, and this theme is fulfilled in Christ and his disciples.

Kind regards Trevor

[Ron Lambert]

Trevor, I think you need to restudy the principles of determining what in the Bible is literal, and what is symbolic. Calling Jesus a Lion is the same thing as calling Him the Lamb. These are metaphors only. You need some explicit reason to interpret them as signifying anything else. Virtually all Seventh-day Adventists I have ever encountered have no difficulty telling the difference between what is symbolic, and what is literal or straightforward narrative (which may employ metaphors as literary devices).

When you arbitrarily read into any given text or figure of speech a fanciful interpretation, without any textural warrant, you are really just producing a private interpretation, which is absolutely forbidden by 2 Peter 1:20. We are not at liberty to give our own spin on anything in Scripture--especially the prophecies, because they are messages given by inspiration of God. We want to know what God says, not what any human says.

Angels inhabit Heaven, not a planet. At least, we have not been told of any planetary home for them. It may be that Heaven is a physical place somewhere in the universe, but we have been told very little about it. It could be something other than a planet. So we should not jump to conclusions.

When God was challenging Job concerning his knowledge of Creation, He demanded, "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth....When the morning stars sang together,  And all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (Job 38:4, 7) Stars are used in Scripture as a synonym for angels, and Adam was called "a son of God" (Luke 3:38). In Job 38:7, the sons of God must have referred to inhabitants of other planets, like Adam, since when the foundations of the earth were being laid, Adam did not exist yet. So clearly angels and intelligent inhabitants of other worlds already existed before the creation of life on earth.