Ron Lambert Posted May 9, 2006 Posted May 9, 2006 David, hopefully there will be a better spirit of fairness here. Please take note of the quotations I added to my post from Ellen White regarding Elder Ballenger and his heresies about the sanctuary (essentially the same as what Ford has been teaching). She uses extemely strong language. Quote
Moderators Jeannieb43 Posted May 9, 2006 Moderators Posted May 9, 2006 <<speaking against Dr. Ford's teachings>> is perfectly acceptable here. After all, we're a discussion group. However, what I find distasteful is the mindset of: "If you [or Dr. Ford] don't believe every single doctrine in just the same interpretation as I understand it, then you're destroying the whole Adventist church." God created us with freedom of choice. He died to preserve that freedom for all His people. Ellen White said He would have destroyed the whole earth and created a new human race rather than give up our right to free will. He lost a third of His holy, sinless angels, when they chose against Him in heaven -- just because they had freedom of will. He will lose many of us, because of that same free will. But yet He allows us to continue to choose. We need to choose on the basis of our understanding, of course. But we never need compel anyone else to pledge allegiance to our peculiar interpretation. That would be un-Christlike. Perhaps here we could preface our comments with something like "In my opinion..." when discussing Desmond Ford. Quote Jeannie<br /><br /><br />...Change is inevitable; growth is optional....
David Koot Posted May 9, 2006 Posted May 9, 2006 Quote: Jeannieb43 said: However, what I find distasteful is the mindset of: "If you [or Dr. Ford] don't believe every single doctrine in just the same interpretation as I understand it, then you're destroying the whole Adventist church." Do you think that is what was done to Dr. Ford? I paid no attention to the whole Glacier View episode, other than hearing about it. Didn't look into it at the time. In your opinion, was that position taken in regard to Dr. Ford's 'interpretation' there? Quote
Robert Posted May 9, 2006 Posted May 9, 2006 What's so bad about what Ford says? Never read him.... Quote
Neil D Posted May 10, 2006 Posted May 10, 2006 Quote: Gerry Cabalo said: Quote: Love makes it's own boundarys. [:"blue"]Oh, like allowing David to get in bed with Bathsheba? [/] Gerry Then you guys don't understand what real love is....Love that makes it's own boundarys is also known as agape love... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
benherndon Posted May 10, 2006 Author Posted May 10, 2006 Please go back and note that the *purpose* of my starting this thread was to hopefully inform those of the younger 'set' what had actually happened at GV and why? Now it comes out that the severe critics of Ford didn't really know what they were talking about, did they?---by their own admissions, yet! Oh, well! What's new? Being informed, reasonable and discerning is such a rare gift! Is it really all that important that all who hope to be saved know about the DECONTEXTUALIZED !!! unique and 'owned' belief of Dan 8:14 in 1843 & 4? Knowing about it isn't going to 'save' anybody way back then,....and neither is knowing about it, at this time. Knowing about and believing and confessing with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, Who was raised from death reconciling us to the Father is sufficient for one's salvation, according to the message of the NT. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son......" Make it simple for everybody who wants to be saved!...don't make it speciously hard! Stop that! Remember, Christ died for all sinners and all sinners do not fit into the exact same mold! They are diverse and the little details of their being saved is also a bit diverse! Gather them all from the hiways and biways---it says. Give hope, not depression! Why try to 'hang around everybody's neck' something that the great majority of avowed, praying, Christians do not take all that seriously? Its OK to believe it and...'scuse me, it's OK to NOT believe it in all its details...for no matter how you look at it, it takes a winding trip through both the OT and NT to come up with the idea. One thing for sure it isn't really directly written anywhere but in 'the writings'. And...that's OK, too, IMO...so long as it isn't added to (1) Love God with all your heart and (2) love your neighbor as yourself. If somebody wants to be saved just read and believe in your heart and confess with your mouth the message of the New Testament and.....its a great probability that person is going to be saved! Remember the jailor and his family in Acts 16? They 'believed' in Jesus as the Messiah....and were all baptized and saved!....even the whole family, huh?! Did they know God and Jesus were going to leave a vacancy in the HP on 10/22/1843 to which....(Oh, never mind!) Shame on you who have no mercy on somebody like Dr. Ford.... who is a probably just as good a Christian as any of us on this Forum! Nobody has to agree with him on all things, and, he never said they did.....but one thing for sure, nobody has to agree with the so-called "teachers of the Law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm. We know that the law is good if a man uses it properly. We also know that law is made not for good men, but for..rebels [and] the ungodly....." Hey....your all OK in the sight of God because you worship Him .....but you are a little bit shy of "loving" Dr. Ford, at least. Yeah!! What's new? ( Nothing, unfortunately..... And we call ourselves Christians?) Ben Quote
David Koot Posted May 10, 2006 Posted May 10, 2006 Quote: benherndon said: Now it comes out that the severe critics of Ford didn't really know what they were talking about, did they?---by their own admissions, yet! Speaking for myself, I did indeed read Ford's material, and heard many presentations from that perspective. I am quite familiar with his teachings. As for the Glacier View matter, I was not 'in the loop' at the time, nor did I care much about that whole thing, other than recalling that one of my friends who was an avid Ford supporter, tried to post a sign on the front door of the Garden Grove church, expressing disappointment at how Ford had been treated. Quote: Shame on you who have no mercy on somebody like Dr. Ford.... who is a probably just as good a Christian as any of us on this Forum! Nobody has to agree with him on all things, and, he never said they did..... To take an example from a different walk of life . . . a con artist may be very polite, well-mannered and show the best breeding. But he will bilk you of your hard-earned cash! J.H. Kellogg was an accomplished, distinguished, well-like professional man. But, he was the instigator of deadly heresy. Being nice is no guarantee of telling the truth. If people are led astray by the false teaching, saying nice words about the teacher, simply won't warn of the danger. There is a time to call it like it is. Quote
David Koot Posted May 10, 2006 Posted May 10, 2006 I wish to emphasize that I reached my decision about Ford's teaching, without being influenced by 'Glacier View.' And, I reached that decision, although many people whom I knew, and interacted with, really advocated and bought into it. I reached the decision that his teachings were not Scriptural, through prayer and careful study of the Word, corroborated by discussion, personal observation and experience. Quote
Robert Posted May 10, 2006 Posted May 10, 2006 Quote: David Koot said: I reached my decision about Ford's teaching Again, what is he teaching that is so bad? I haven't study his theology. Rob Quote
Robert Posted May 10, 2006 Posted May 10, 2006 Quote: benherndon said: ..so long as it isn't added to (1) Love God with all your heart and (2) love your neighbor as yourself. A] If God gives us "agape" so that we can love Him back, God becomes self-centered. Love is demonstrated through faith. That's how we love God. B] Jesus demonstrated what it means to love one's neighbor. Agape is only outward, never inward. It is not self-seeking. We are failing here, although in some ways we are less selfish. So...since we fall short we must rely on what Christ did 2000 in our fallen humanity for our ticket to heaven. Rob Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted May 13, 2006 Moderators Posted May 13, 2006 Quote: Quote: Gerry Cabalo said: Quote: Love makes it's own boundarys. [:"blue"]Oh, like allowing David to get in bed with Bathsheba? [/] Gerry Then you guys don't understand what real love is....Love that makes it's own boundarys is also known as agape love... [:"blue"]The reason the 10c were given was to define the minimum limits/boundaries of love. [/] Gerry Quote
Neil D Posted May 13, 2006 Posted May 13, 2006 Quote: The reason the 10c were given was to define the minimum limits/boundaries of love. For you, Gerry, that is the 'working definition" of agape love...but that is NOT the true definition of agape love. This is further evidence that you do not understand relationships...I do not accuse, I am pointing out the obvious...It is a misconception that many SDA's have. And when you are ready to grow, and are faced with a crisis, you will learn...but not until then. Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
Moderators Gerr Posted May 14, 2006 Moderators Posted May 14, 2006 Here's your opportunity to improve my understanding of love and relationships. Give us the true definition of love? Gerry Quote
David Koot Posted May 14, 2006 Posted May 14, 2006 Quote: For you, Gerry, that is the 'working definition" of agape love...but that is NOT the true definition of agape love. This is further evidence that you do not understand relationships...I do not accuse, I am pointing out the obvious...It is a misconception that many SDA's have. And when you are ready to grow, and are faced with a crisis, you will learn...but not until then. To say that is quite a pretentious statement would be an understatement. Quote
olger Posted May 14, 2006 Posted May 14, 2006 Everyone says they have love. the Lord Jesus comes along and says "Let's test it." True love always manifests itself in obedience, willingness to operate outside of self in accordance with the Law of liberty. "If you love Me, keep my commandments." Eve did not love God when she ate the apple. No sir. David did not love God when he chose moral failure with Bathsheba and murdered her husband. Incidentally, God never refers to David as a man after His heart -- after his sin with Bathsheba. True love reveals itself in obedience to God's law because the Law is based on love. As to Dr. Ford, I sincerely wish him well. I would like to sit down and talk with him. Were I called upon to vote regarding reinstating his position in the church, I would vote no, and I would vote in love. It is not likely that my formal opinion will be sought in the matter, and that's good because there are more pressing matters before me. warm regards, gcw Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
Robert Posted May 14, 2006 Posted May 14, 2006 Quote: Eve did not love God when she ate the apple. No sir. Wrong...Eve was deceived by the nature of sin. Eve loved God, yet she desired (which can't be explained) to be "as gods"....Her sin was "self-seeking"! Quote: David did not love God when he chose moral failure with Bathsheba and murdered her husband. David was deceived by his own nature....Even Paul said, "Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me." Quote
Robert Posted May 14, 2006 Posted May 14, 2006 Quote: Give us the true definition of love? Gerry Jesus! Review His life...that's love! Quote
bevin Posted May 14, 2006 Posted May 14, 2006 Cute, but not a definition Because it doesn't provide me with a widely understood test of whether my cat loves me /Bevin Quote
olger Posted May 15, 2006 Posted May 15, 2006 "Wrong...Eve was deceived by the nature of sin. Eve loved God, yet she desired (which can't be explained) to be "as gods"....Her sin was "self-seeking"!" Thanks for your response Robert. No doubt your post is well-intended, but unfortunately you have just stated that selfishness can co-exist with selfless love. "If you love me you will keep my commandments." Warm regards, olger Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
Robert Posted May 15, 2006 Posted May 15, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> No doubt your post is well-intended, but unfortunately you have just stated that selfishness can co-exist with selfless love. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> No, that is your conclusion....Sin was developed from a sinless being named Lucifer. He invented the "self" [selfishness]! Rob Quote
Robert Posted May 15, 2006 Posted May 15, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Cute, but not a definition <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Actually much better than just a definition. The Bible states that "God is love"! Okay...how so? Answer: Look at Christ's life! Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted May 16, 2006 Moderators Posted May 16, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Give us the true definition of love? Gerry <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> <font size=8>Jesus!<font size=2> Review His life...that's love! <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> [:"blue"]Try saying, "Jesus" to someone who has never heard of him and see how much that name defines what love is. Fact is, you cannot define love by other done what it does. Love does not kill, disrespect one's parents, does not fornicate, does not covet, does not steal, does not bow down to idols, does not take God's name unworthily, does not envy, does not parade itslef, is not puffed up, does not behave rudely, does not insist on its own rights, is not provoked, thinks no evil.... Your definition as simply, "Jesus", although He is indeed love personified, is your puny and lame way to escape any semblance to obedience. You mouth off "growth" but refuse to define what it is, for fear it might be mistaken for legalism. [/] Gerry Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted May 16, 2006 Moderators Posted May 16, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Cute, but not a definition <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Actually much better than just a definition. The Bible states that "God is love"! Okay...how so? Answer: Look at Christ's life! <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> [:"blue"]And what was it about His life that defines love? [/] Gerry Quote
bevin Posted May 16, 2006 Posted May 16, 2006 Ahh, now I understand Love is flogging people with ropes in a church, making pigs jump off cliffs, and then committing suicide. /Bevin Quote
Robert Posted May 18, 2006 Posted May 18, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Fact is, you cannot define love by other done what it does. Love does not kill, disrespect one's parents, does not fornicate, does not covet, does not steal, does not bow down to idols, does not take God's name unworthily, does not envy, does not parade itslef, is not puffed up, does not behave rudely, does not insist on its own rights [try "is not self-seeking"], is not provoked, thinks no evil.... <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Here I go: “He lived a life free from self-seeking, wholly given to the service of others.” [EGW] “The Saviour lived not to please Himself. In His life there was not trace of selfishness. Though in a world that He himself had created, He claimed no part of it as His home. "Foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests," He said; "but the Son of man hath not where to lay His head." [EGW] To one who, during the Saviour's ministry, offered to follow him…, Jesus said, "The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." Those who follow him must share his poverty [i.e., the result of no self-seeking in this world]. "If any man will come after me," he declares, "let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." "So shall ye be my disciples." RH 7-4-12 In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure but all, from pure, genuine love, will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them [2T 132] Our little world is the lesson book of the universe. God's wonderful purpose of grace, the mystery of redeeming love, is the theme into which "angels desire to look", and it will be their study throughout endless ages. Both the redeemed and the unfallen beings will find in the cross of Christ their science and their song. It will be seen that the glory shining in the face of Jesus is the glory of self-sacrificing love. In the light from Calvary it will be seen that the law of self-renouncing love is the law of life for earth and heaven; that the love which "seeketh not her own" has its source in the heart of God. . . .[AG 45] Ellen White correctly ties in 1 Cor 13:5 with “self-renouncing love”. In heaven none will think of self…we will live solely for others. This is not true here…hence you and I are “falling short” and thus “by the works of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight.” Quote
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