"Glacier View" 25 yrs later

May 27, 2006

Gal 3:23 “Before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up until the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.”

This can be taken two ways:

In many Bibles the definite article, “the” precedes the word “faith”. So it reads, “Before THE faith came….” “The faith” refers to Christ.

Okay, so let’s read it this way first:

Before Christ came, we were kept in custody [:"red"]under the law[/], being shut up until the faith [Christ] which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that Christ has come, we are no longer under a tutor [under law].”

The second way:

Before faith came [i.e., before we exercised faith], we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up until the faith [Jesus] which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come [i.e., now that we have accepted Christ], we are no longer under a tutor [under law].

Has the law been abolished? NO! The Christian is simply not “under” its authority.

Why…is the law bad?

Let’s go to Paul, because he asks this same question:

Romans 7:7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? [is the law bad?] Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law.

Nothing is wrong with the law when it comes to pointing out our sinful condition. Hence Paul says, “The law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.” Nothing is wrong with the law!!! Then what’s the problem?

Answer: “The law has authority over a man only as long as he lives.” [Romans 7:1]

Now what happens when you sin “under the law”? Turn to Romans 2:12

“All [both Jew & Gentile] who sin under the law will be judged by the law. Why?

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.”

Sinning “under law” is a no, no! It brings judgment. It brings the curse or the 2nd death.

If Christ simply did away with the law (abolished it) then there was not any reason for Him to come and take its curse. So the law is still as valid today as it was when the finger of God wrote it. The problem is being under its authority! Why?

Gal 3:10 …Cursed is everyone [:"red"]who does not continue to do everything[/] written in the Book of the Law.”, “ 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law….

How by doing away with the law? No:

“[:"red"]By becoming a curse for us[/], for it is written: 'Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.'”

Rob

May 27, 2006

Proverbs 28:9 "He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, Even his prayer is an abomination."

What does the law say?

Romans 3:10 “There is no one righteous, not even one"....19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held guilty before God. 20 For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, [why?] since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

So...if one turns away from hearing what the law says (and it says there's none righteous) then he/she can "act" Christian all they desire, but God will not hear his/her self-righteous prayer.

The law is very, very important to brings us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.

EGW just for you Ben: <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

"The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith" (Gal. 3:24). In this scripture, the Holy Spirit through the apostle is speaking especially of the moral law. The law reveals sin to us, and causes us to feel our need of Christ and to flee unto Him for pardon and peace by exercising repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ."

May 27, 2006

We are close enough in our beliefs, it seems, and can have hope of 'getting together'....

You said this: <blockquote>Quote:<hr />

If Christ simply did away with the law (abolished it) then there was not any reason for Him to come and take its curse. So the law is still as valid today as it was when the finger of God wrote it. The problem is being under its authority! Why?

>>>Yes, we are no longer, as Christians, under the authority of the Law of Moses...none of it or any part of it. Yes it helped to define 'sin' and made sin and sinning worse, Paul said.

Why are you resisting the words of scripture, 'done away' 2Cor 3:11& 14, (KJV), "abolished"(Jerusalem Bible), 'cast out' Gal 4:30 (KJV) 'get rid of' Gal 4:30 (NIV)?????

Eph 2:15--'abolished' (KJV) 'abolishing' (NASB) 'abolished' (NIV) 'abolished' (Amplified)???

Col 2:13,14--'blotting out...nailing' (KJV), 'cancelled out...nailing' (NASB), 'cancelled....nailing' (NIV),(cancelled and blotted out and wiped away....He set aside and cleared completely out of our way by nailing it to (His)cross." (Amplified)???

Rob, you are denying the words of the New Testament....they are NOT my words!!! Yes, we still have 'the Law' and it was a good thing for its time and purpose, but it is no longer 'authoritative' as you have said....well, if it's not authoritative why are you still trying to follow it?

THE ISSUE is the mandatoriness of THE SABBATH upon the Christian which we 'sabbatarians' demand others recognize....but, they know the Bible and the NT much better than we who allow extraBiblical authors to dictate to us what is 'right' vs what the Bible says is 'right'.

The Christian is 'under the authority' of the New Testament. The Jew who rejects Christianity is 'under the authority' of 'the Law of Moses' and that means the whole Law---all of it! See Romans 2.

You quoted EGW....but, now, go deeper into her quotes on 'the Law' in Galatians and you will find several answers not all the same. She said first it was the 'ceremonial Law'----(that is an artificial, nonBiblical division of 'the Law of Moses....its a false division of 'the Law')----then EGW says its the 'moral Law' and then in another reference she says its both the ceremonial and the moral. Later, due to the controversy going on in the church over the '88 Gen'l Conf...she told everybody to not talk about it anymore and bawled out the GC President for disobeying her demand to not talk about it. EGW accepted an artificial division of 'the Law of Moses' when, the record shows, Moses said God said to obey [u[all the decrees, commands and regulations of all 'the Law' for all generations. But they didn't know Christ was going to come and change things much later.

Don't you realize that when God created mankind He did exactly like He did in all the rest of creation?....everything was to reproduce according to the 'natural law' pertinent to that particular 'creation'. The spider does its 'thing', the lion does its 'thing', the bugs did their 'thing' and .....humans did their 'thing' according to His natural laws unique to that particular genera and species. It did not take a written or verbally organized "Law of God" for each separate specie! Humans know inherently to not kill, eat, steal, fornicate, lie, dishonor parents. And since God made Himself known to man apart from their natural laws, He gave them ways to worship Him instead of them worshpping idols of stone, wood, metal....Man knows he, himself, is not anyone another should worship even though some kings tried to get people to recognize them as 'gods'.

But when there was no law, like 'the Law of Moses', their wrongdoings were not 'recorded' against them...God used human gov't laws as a basis for teaching about His law...If there is no STOP sign at an intersection of roads, it may be unwise and wrong and dangerous to not stop.....but until there is a formal STOP sign erected, it is not against the law to barge through the intersection...even though you and others could be killed! The STOP sign became "the Law" and you got traffic tickets and fines for breaking the STOP sign "law". The formal indentification of what 'sin' was created guilt for which man could not atone for himself. This was all in God's plan for mankind....to identify His guilt for him and give him a Savior and Hope for life after death.

I mention Rom 14 which was written for SDAs (tongue in cheek!)....it says to let everyman decide for himself in Christian times, about which day he wants to worship his God in a special way. THE NEW TESTAMENT FULLY REPLACES THE AUTHORITY OF THE OLD TESTAMENT AND OLD COVENANT IN THE CHRISTIANS LIFE!

The New Testament tells the Christian how to live since Christ died and the curtain of the Jewish sanctuary was ripped from top to bottom....totally 'abolishing in His flesh' the system of religion established around the sanctuary for the Jews. That Jewish or Mosaic era abruptly came to a decisive 'end' when Christ died ushering in the New Way of Christianity we are now 'under' the authority of.

And....Heb 4 does NOT reauthorize mandatory Sabbath observance for the Christian. It is impossible for mankind to keep the 4th commandment of the Decalogue in the world economy which developed after the Exodus. NOBODY keeps the Sabbath commandment according to the 4th command of the Decalogue....nobody of his right mind today could keep it if he wanted to...and nobody wants to! Get off the mental consent to the Sabbath commandment into the realization that practicallly speaking the most devout Christian could not keep the Sabbath unless he abandoned normal existence in this world today. Who can do without modern conveniences today. We are not sitting in tents around a small mountain today... we are carrying on what God wanted us to do...advance, repopulate the world, take care of the sick, feed the hungry, clothe the naked and cold, use our cars to get to church or the hospital, cook our food, clean up the mess, arrest the wicked, put out fires, flush our toilets, ad infinitum....GET SMART PEOPLE! Use the New Testament. Our forefathers gathered around Mt Sinai! We are preparing to gather ourselves around Mt Zion, the heavenly kindgom and God is its sanctuary!

This is our faith....our faith is NOT in a special day of the week! Yes...its' OK to go to church and not work on Sabbath in honor of our God....but in Heb 3 and 4 He says He wants such worship TODAY, meaning every day while we carry on our life on this earth. We are looking forward to Mt Zion....we are not looking back to Mt Sinai.....Christ has come! His return is the next big event. Get ready for that by worshpping Him and obeying the commmands of the Son of God who WAS the 'face' of God on this earth. His command is to worship Him and be loving to others confessing our wrongs and trying with His Spirit to overcome any wrong habits we have encouraged upon ourselves.

Get your mind into the New Testament, Rob. Jack Sequeira is a Godly man and he means well....but he is not the Bible. You have the obligation to figure it out for yourself. He did! So, why don't you? Similarly, EGW was sincere Godly and saintly lady who did her best to foster love and worshp of our Heavenly Father....but she, nor anybody else IS Bible in authority. Everyman must read and decide for himself and he shouldn't condemn anybody else who worships in slightly different faithful way. So, it all applies to me as well as all others. I don't have any objection to the Sabbath....but I don't think we should criticize others who differ from us in minor ways but who are worshipping the same God we are and being considerate of others.

(I dont' have the time to go back and correct all this in grammar and spelling and syntax, etc...so pardon me while I sign off! I love you all. We are all Christians who are saved by Him.. Fortunately, He is forgiving and considerate and has died for all who respect Him as their Savior and live as if they do, indeed, respect and have faith in Him!)

Ben

May 27, 2006

I really do not have much more to say. You will have to continue to struggle with what you ("you" collectively) and figure out what you should do to demonstrate your faith in God and His Son who was raised from death to life reconciling us all to God, the Father.

This is the answer to our sins...Christ is the answer. Christ brings the 'cure' from a sinful state to a heavenly sinless state of affairs eventually.

I don't have much more to say....you who are concerned at all will have to figure it out for yourself. Frankly, I believe if you believe in Him as your Savior and worship Him and show concern and care for others in their struggles through life, you and all like you will be saved.

That's just my personal conclusion at this time. May God have mercy on each and everyone of us!

The message for Christians is contained in the New Testament and its all very clear, IMO, IF one limits his instruction and living principles by the NT alone. That makes it much simpler than I was taught. It says we have been fully informed. I believe that! So, if I don't 'make it' it will be my fault....right?

Ben

May 28, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

... Yes it [the law] helped to define 'sin' and made sin and sinning worse, Paul said.

Not "helped" define sin, but defines sin! The law always defines sin.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Why are you resisting the words of scripture, 'done away' 2 Cor 3:11& 14, (KJV), "abolished"(Jerusalem Bible), 'cast out' Gal 4:30 (KJV) 'get rid of' Gal 4:30 (NIV)?????

Now pay attention:

Paul: “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”

Moses: "Cursed is he who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them."

"So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone."

The law at large, which includes the Ten Commandments, is not the Old Covenant. The terms of that law is what makes it the Old Covenant.

If I say to you, "Ben, adultery is wrong" I am making an accurate statement - it is a fact. But if I say, "Ben, you must obey that law or you must die" then I have added to that law 2 conditions or terms. That makes my statement "old covenant"! The law, in and of itself, is not a covenant!

EGW agrees:

“The terms of the "old covenant" were, Obey and live: "If a man do, he shall even live in them" (Eze. 20:11; Lev. 18:5); but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them." Deut. 27:26. [RH 10-17-1907]

This is why you are confused.

Rob

May 28, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

The New Testament scriptures quote Christ. Every word of Christ IS a commandment, and carrys the 'authority' of Him as the 'face' of God on earth.

Let's put your argument to the test:

Luke 10:25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

27 He answered: ”‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

Please note that Jesus agreed with this "expert's" assesment of the law. But then Jesus answers his question [i.e., "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"] by saying, "This do and you will live."

Jesus was giving this man the Old Covenant. Are you sure you want to stick with your statement above?

Rob

May 28, 2006

There was a meeting between a Supreme Leader and a number of his underlings:

SL: "I've come up with really cooool plan! You'll love it!"

U's: "So - don't keep us in suspenders -spill already!"

SL: "Well I'vw thought up this set of arbitrary rules - they seem fairly straightforward and innocuous. All they've got to do is keep them and they qualify for the goodies!"

U's: "So alright - how is that anything clever?"

SL: "Well nobody can successfully keep these rules! They can try as diligently as they like and will always fall short! Not only will they miss but they will destroy themselves with guilt in the process!"

U's: "Oh we get! That is really cool!"

SL: "But he best bit is yet to come! After athousand years or so, we tell them that I've changed the rules - The set of laws have been chucked out! They no longer have to worry about them! or do they? The suspense and worry whether or not the petty strictures are still valid will ensure they are still absolutely loaded with guilt!!! No one will ever be sure that they qualify for the goodies! Some will be sure, but others will do all that they can to dispell their illusions, others will hope they will get some small handout but will be ravaged by doubt! Hehehe!"

U's: "Oh, a true masterpiece, master!"

__________________________________________

What is wrong with this picture?

If true, you would have to say that it is a diabloically clever plan, and hence we would know just WHO the SL is.

I reckon anyone who believes Abba Father could hatch such a plan grossly defames the character of our almight loving Father.

Graeme

May 28, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

SL: ...I've thought up this set of arbitrary rules - they seem fairly straightforward and innocuous. All they've got to do is keep them and they qualify for the goodies!....Nobody can successfully keep these rules! They can try as diligently as they like and will always fall short!

While in captivity Israel had been indoctrinated with the Egyptian religions. All religions besides true Christianity involve appeasing an angry god through some sort of works program. This was Israel's mentality. Perhaps that's why EGW said, "The principle that man can save himself by his own works lay at the foundation of every heathen religion...." [DA 35]

The question then is why did God enter the Old Covenant terms with Israel? Didn't God know that they couldn't keep the law? Yes, absolutely! The problem is that they didn't know!!! <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Why? Because mankind is proud - he is legalistic by nature. He wants to contribute...he wants credit!

In order to break them of their legalistic mindset, God entered into the Old Covenant with Israel. But instead of admitting their failure the majority became more self-righteous. That's why when Christ came on the scene He expanded on the law (see Matt chapter 5, verses 17 through 48). He wanted to make sin exceedingly sinful.

So while Christ, by His doing and dying, has introduced a "better covenant" (the New Covenant) He will use the Old Covenant to open the eyes of the self-righteous so that they may see that, "There is none righteous, no, not even one."

Proof:

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” “What is written in the Law?” He replied...You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart...and your neighbor as yourself.” And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; [:"red"]do this [i.e., keep the law], and you will live [i.e., get eternal life][/]." [Luke 10:25-29]

Good master, "What good thing must I do to get eternal life?” [This is the same question as above]....[:"Red"]”If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”[/] “Which ones?” the man inquired. Jesus replied,..."love your neighbor as yourself.” [Matt 19:17-19]

"What is justification by faith? It is the work of God in laying the glory of man in the dust, and doing for man that which it is not in his power to do for himself."[special Testimonies to Ministers and Workers, pages 61, 62.]

May 28, 2006

Rob, I could continue with this, I suppose....but it doesn't seem profitable, after all.....so keep up your search for His truth and I'll do the same...and ask for His merciful judgment.....what else? If He is a really strict God...like I was taught, then, I give up!

I mean it from the heart when I say the old cliche..."Have a good day!"

Ben

May 29, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Rob, I could continue with this, I suppose....but it doesn't seem profitable, after all.....so keep up your search for His truth and I'll do the same...

It's rather simple:

1] "For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished."

2]Therefore, my brethren, you [not the law] were made to die to the Law [it demanded your death] through the body of Christ....But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

It's very clear, Ben, the law demanded our death. We died, not the law, in the humanity of Christ:

"For we know that our old self [old life] was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with....

The law has been satisfied in Christ's humanity. As far as the law is concerned YOU are dead! The law can't demand righteousness from a dead man, can it?

May 29, 2006

Gal 4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5 to redeem [save] those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons.

Two things:

1] Christ as the Son of Man was born of a woman.

2] He was born under law.

In other words because Christ was born of a woman He was born "under law" - i.e., under it's curse. How so?

David received from Adam a fallen humanity. From where did he receive it? "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." [Ps 51:5]

Mary, Christ’s mother, came from the same seed. She was a descendent of Adam. In other words Mary was a sinner. Hence her offspring was sinful. Therefore the humanity that came from her womb was sinful and hence came under the law's jurisdiction. I didn't say that humanity was a sinning humanity, I just said it was sinful because of its ties to Adam.

No I'm not calling Christ a sinner. Christ is God - He is Divine, but the humanity in Mary's womb was a product of the fall. The Holy Spirit's function was to keep it from sinning....Thus the humanity of the Son of Man was under the control of the Spirit from conception. Hence He never sinned, not even by a thought.

As the Son of Men this humanity "had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people." [Heb 2:17]

Thus God, through the incarnation, mysteriously blended our fallen humanity under the curse with Christ's deity, which is sinless. In so doing Christ as God handed the independent use of divine prerogatives over to His Father and lived fully and completely in our shoes.

For thirty-something years the Son of Man lived a perfect life with respect to God's law. Since all of us share that same fallen humanity, His victory over indwelling sin becomes a reality for humanity. Hence the law's demand for Holiness was fulfilled.

However, since the humanity that the Son of God assumed was our fallen life under the curse, God the Father had to abandon it to the 2nd death. Thus the 2nd aspect of God's law was answered - its justice!

But because our humanity is sinful by conception also God the Father had to leave our old humanity (sin) in the grave. In its place He raised the Son of Man with a sinless, glorified humanity and ever tied to His Deity. This answers the third aspect of God's law.

In other words in Christ's Holy history the demands of the law have been fulfilled. Instead of setting aside His law, God legally answered it in Jesus Christ, the Son of God and the Son of man.!

You have a lawful right to go to heaven, Ben. Why? Because God didn't do away with His law....

Rob

May 30, 2006

The law and the gospel

Here's a sample:

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith?

“Is this what I am doing in my preaching of the doctrine of Justification by Faith? Do we make void the law through faith?” And what is his answer [in the same verse]?

Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Now I would like to confess that this is one of the most misunderstood verses in the Bible. I have heard lots of talks, I have read a lot of material on this verse, but I am afraid I have to disagree with all of them. Let me give you a typical interpretation of verse 31 that you often read and hear:

“Do we then make void the law through faith? No! By faith God gives us His Spirit. He gives us power. And we are able to keep the law by God’s power, and by keeping the law, we are establishing the law.”

May 30, 2006

Rob, I'm sorry but I am not going to continue this discussion because you are avoiding or distorting the scriptures because you are being guided by an extrabibilical source.

One must go to the Bible alone....I gave you a list of texts...if you want to communicate with me you will have to deal with each one of those texts first.

Ben

May 30, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Why are you resisting the words of scripture, 'done away' 2Cor 3:11& 14, (KJV), "abolished"(Jerusalem Bible), 'cast out' Gal 4:30 (KJV) 'get rid of' Gal 4:30 (NIV)?????

2 Cor 3:11 And if what was fading away [ context: the glory that came with the giving of the law] came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts [all reflect the Lord’s glory].

Your reference doesn't say that the law has faded away.

Gal 4:30 "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.”

All this is saying is that legalism produces bondage. Nothing of doing away with the law here.

I'll look at more later.

Rob

May 30, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Why are you resisting the words of scripture, 'done away' 2Cor 3:11& 14, (KJV), "abolished"(Jerusalem Bible), 'cast out' Gal 4:30 (KJV) 'get rid of' Gal 4:30 (NIV)?????

2 Cor 3:11 And if what was fading away [ context: the glory that came with the giving of the law] came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts [all reflect the Lord’s glory].

Your reference doesn't say that the law has faded away. [/quote/

[:" blue"] Robert you are not Biblically knowledgeable. You are addicted to using extrabiblical authority rather than the Bible...I mean this gently. Because you are a believer in Him as your Savior, you are OK ...but you should probably not be teaching because you haven't figured these things out ALL on your own. Read 2Cor 3 from beginning to end in two or three good versions including the KJV.

The fading of the 'glory' on Moses' face is an allegory of the fading of the glory of the two tables of stone, the decalogue, as time passes and Christ came ( see also Gal 3:17-25) This is also referred to in Heb 7 and 8...the 'old' fades away. This refers to the Old Covenant, the Decalogue and as a proxy for the entire Law of Moses, the Pentateuch. Just so long as one continues to attribute authority of the Law of Moses over the Christian and his life as a Christian, there is a lack of understanding of Christ's Grace. Go back and read my relatively recent posts....I mention what the various versions say and refer to. I'm sorry, folks, but the entire Law of Moses which includes the Ten Commandments is 'done away' and 'abolished' and 'faded' as an authority over the Christian. This is a very hard thing for an SDA or one accustomed to depending upon 'the writings' for guidance in Biblical interpretation. Its my opinion that just so long as you continue to depend upon Jack Sequeira and 'the writings' to be your interpreters of Scripture you will not be able to appreciate the full New Testament message of Christ and His Father as regards the "new" Christian life...which is grossly different from the "Jewish" life.[/]

(quote)

Gal 4:30 "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.”

All this is saying is that legalism produces bondage. Nothing of doing away with the law here.

I'll look at more later.

Rob

[:" blue"] I'm sorry, Robert, but, once again you are so steeped into Jack, et al, that you cannot see clearly. The last part of Gal 4 is an allegory that Sara and Hagar are representative of the 'old testament' and the 'New Testament'....The "Old Covenant" and the "New Covenant". Hagar, representing the Old covenant was to be 'Cast out' (KJV), "cast out" (NASB), 'get rid of' (NIV), "cast out and send away" (amplified), "cast out" (Berry's Interlinear Greek-English) Hagar is an allegoical reference to the Old Covenant, the Old Testament, the Old Agreement. Sara represents the New Covenant/Tesatment/Agreement.

Please, let's get into the Bible and away from all extraBiblical 'authorities'.

But please continue interpreting Eph 2, Col 2, 1Tim 1. There are others.

We are still talking now that you are dealing with those texts. OK?

As gently as possible for me..........Ben

[/]

May 30, 2006

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Robert you are not Biblically knowledgeable.

Thanks Doc.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

You are addicted to using extrabiblical authority rather than the Bible...I mean this gently.

Not at all. Yes I studied Jack's material years ago, but I am the one who studied the Bible for myself with an open mind. I happen to agree with 99.9% of Jack's material, not because he's pope to me, but because it has just worked out that way.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Just so long as one continues to attribute authority of the Law of Moses over the Christian and his life as a Christian, there is a lack of understanding of Christ's Grace.

Ben, you need to listen...you need to read what I have written. I have plainly stated that the believer is not "under the law", but not because the law has been abolished. Christ answered all the demands of the book of Moses...all the shadows, all the health regulations and righteousness that the Ten Commandments require.

Now I am going to be hard on you...real hard. Are you ready? Ben, you are perpetuating a lie. You are presenting an unethical gospel...no, a perverted gospel.

The demands of the law are threefold:

1] Obey and live

2] Disobey and die eternally

3] but it also requires Holy Flesh - a glorified body free from indwelling sin.

All these requirements were fulfilled in the holy history of Christ as the 2nd Adam. Jesus didn't come to make the law void, He came to live it in every detail. As the 2nd Adam He had to legally experience the 2nd death because the law demanded it. He had to legally obey it in every detail, because again the law demanded it. Otherwise His birth, life, death and resurrection are the greatest sham the world has ever seen. Christ wasn't role playing...He wasn't acting! What He did has set us legally free from the law because none of us are fully measuring up.

Here's Paul (not Ellen or Jack):

Rom 7:4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ...."

Once again, who died? Not the law...you! Where? In Christ's humanity! Hence Paul could say, "For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the [law could be done away with? No, so that the] body of sin might be done away with...."

The law demanded your death! Since the whole human race shares Adam's life after the fall and since Christ as God assumed this corporate life, we have been made Holy in the doing and dying of Christ as the Son of Man. Christ answered the law and made it honorable!

Now the rest of verse 4:

"that you might belong to another [Christ], to him who was raised from the dead, [so we can enjoy sin? No,] in order that we might bear fruit to God.

verse 5 For when we were lived for the sinful nature [i.e., when the mind and the nature were in harmony], the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.

Sinning under law bares fruit unto death. We needed delivered from under law, but not by doing away with the law.

6 But now, by dying to what once bound us [i.e., the law], we have been released from the law so [that we could enjoy sin? No, so] that we serve in the new way of the Spirit [i.e., we can mature], and not in the old way of the written code [obey and live, disobey and die].

Clearly what died was not the law. No, it was our sinful life from Adam. It died the 2nd death!

Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus [i.e., the one who has accepted his position "in Christ"], 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life [the power of the Holy Spirit] set me free from the law of sin and death.

Please note that in Christ's holy history I have by faith been freed from "the law of sin" [my sinful nature] and death [the curse of the law], but not by doing away with the law:

3 For what the law was powerless to do [it can't save or forgive] in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh...

Where did Christ condemn sin? "In the flesh" - in our humanity. The result gives us the opportunity to experience His victory as we learn to walk in the Spirit.

Verse 4: in order that the requirement of the Law [love] might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Rob

May 31, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

But please continue interpreting Eph 2, Col 2, 1Tim 1. There are others.

I believe Eph 2 and Col 2 are saying the same things. I'll use Col because it is easier to read:

Col 2:9 For in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh [compare Rom 6:6; 7:4] by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism [i.e., you died in Him], in which you were also raised up with Him [see Eph 2:6] through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh [compare Eph 2:5 first part], He made you alive together with Him [compare Eph 2:5 last part], having forgiven us all our transgressions,

How, by doing away with the law?

14 having canceled out the certificate of debt [our sins] consisting of decrees against us [i.e, the death penalty] and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. [NASB]

What Christ figuratively nailed to the cross was the death penalty because of the debt of our sins. He fulfilled the terms of the law.

Eph 2:11 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, the law of commandments in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man….

Again, the law in and of itself is not at enmity with us. However “the terms” of the law (obey and live, disobey and die) are against us. Maybe “ordinances” means “terms”?

This is a hard one, but I don’t see it negating the clear verses….

1 Tim 1:9 Realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners....

So? The law points out sin!

June 2, 2006

Rob, you and I are either 'under the law's authority' or we are not under the law's authority. You can manipulate the words all you wish but 'abolish', 'done away', 'faded', 'no glory at all' apparently mean to you the exact opposite of what those words mean to ordinary English speaking peoples.

When we have such a failure to define simple common English words mentioned above.....there is no us me wasting your time or you mine! I just don't believe your interpretation of those texts and you don't believe mine....but the essential 'whole' of Christianity agrees with me. 1/2 to 1% agree with you. So-o-o-o....I'm comfortable. Apparently, so are you, so let's let the Lord sort it all out when He comes.

Ben

June 2, 2006

If Christ came to do away with the law then why did He take its curse?

June 2, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

but the essential 'whole' of Christianity agrees with me. 1/2 to 1% agree with you. So-o-o-o

KIM that the essential 'whole' of Christianity will be deceived and worship the Beast and receive its mark. And no, it will not be enough to simply wait until Jesus comes. Jesus wants us to know the Truth now, and we need to know it, in order to prepare to meet Him.

June 2, 2006

This is not 'fun'....for either of us....is it? Are we learning anything now? We've learned that you support 'the writings' under all considerations apparently and you've learned that I don't. But until I'm thrown out we are still both SDAs, right?

I resist the name calling and character attacks on another brother in the Lord--Dr. Ford, to be specific--- but there is a long list of those treated similarly for minor differences with 'the writings'. You apparently don't resist them. Rather you agree seemingly at all times with 'the writings'.

So now that we agree to disagree we've gone about as 'furr' as we can 'go', huh?

I've already told you that from the New Testament I have concluded that all who believe in the Son and that He was raised from the dead, believed it in the heart and confessed it with the mouth, are going to be saved if they persevere. That includes you and all believers..... though I think you do not teach what the Bible says properly due to your being in that group of SDAs that I and many others consider cultic or of similar persuasion. We think that is a mistake and that has caused serious trouble within the SDA Christian community for many many years..... and unnecessarily so.

But now that we have not learned anything from each other, there is no use continuing the discussion.

In another subject you wittingly or unwittingly show your preference for the cultic approach to truth of the Bible as I have spoken to in recent posts on this thread. Now in at least two subjects you have confirmed from whence you obtain your instruction IMO and my experience & observations after a lifetime spent and educated in this community--it is the Bible + 'the writings'.

So, God bless you......and me...in our separate approaches to seeking to know the truths of God from the Bible for me and..... the Bible + whatever also for you.

So, let's stop it now.....we aren't doing ourselves or anybody else much good and are doing some bad, probably.

Sorry about all that. But when one is in a hole--- they should stop digging, or they go deeper into the 'hole'.

Let's stop digging. We are both claiming Christ as our Savior, aren't we? If so....well....?

Ben

June 2, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

We've learned that you support 'the writings' under all considerations apparently

I am somewhat mystified as to the relevance of your statement. In the post which you are responding to, I spoke of the BIBLICAL teaching about the mark of the beast and the world wondering after and worshiping the beast. That is found in Rev. 13. That is Bible doctrine, and it is clearly spelled out.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

I resist the name calling and character attacks on another brother in the Lord--Dr. Ford, to be specific

Name calling? Character attacks? Please specify what you are talking about. I have not engaged in either of those. I have spoken about his teachings, which are not in harmony with Scripture. That could not be construed as a personal attack.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

I've already told you that from the New Testament I have concluded that all who believe in the Son and that He was raised from the dead, believed it in the heart and confessed it with the mouth, are going to be saved if they persevere.

Your statement has the value due to any such statement of opinion. I have indeed read your various posts on related topics, and I have not found them to be in harmony with Scripture in some important areas. The Bible is the test of all teaching, and is indeed our safe guide. That is what I base my understanding and teaching on. If what I teach happens to agree with 'the writings,' then that is fine, but it doesn't mean that I GOT my teachings from the writings, or base them on the writings. If, indeed, 'the writings' were inspired by God, then one would expect them to agree with the Bible. No problem at all.

Cordially,

David Koot

June 3, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

If Christ came to do away with the law then why did He take its curse?

Ben...let's get back to my point. But before that remember that I am not placing you "under law" in my attempt to prove that the law has not been abolished. Get that point down!

Go to Galatians 3:13 Christ redeemed us [from hell? No,] from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree” — 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Did you get that? Christ saved us from "the curse of the law" not by doing away with the law, but by answering its demands for justice. Why? "In order" that you could be blessed with Abraham and receive the Spirit through faith.

Jesus' death was completely unnecessary if He didn't need to legally take its curse! He died because the law demanded that our humanity die eternally. Without His fulfillment of the law you stand no chance of making it to heaven.

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