8thdaypriest Posted March 26, 2018 Posted March 26, 2018 Anyone have some insight into why Jesus came to submit Himself to the rite of baptism? John obviously thought baptism symbolically washed away ones past sins. Jesus seems to have a different view of baptism. Matthew 3:15 But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him. Baptism was understood as preparation to meet God. At Mount Sinai, the people were told to wash before they came before God. Jesus seems to be saying that baptism is something commanded by God, for everyone - even for sinless man. Quote 8thdaypriest
TrevorL Posted March 26, 2018 Posted March 26, 2018 Greetings 8thdaypriest, 3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said: Anyone have some insight into why Jesus came to submit Himself to the rite of baptism? John obviously thought baptism symbolically washed away ones past sins. Jesus seems to have a different view of baptism. Matthew 3:15 But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him. Baptism was understood as preparation to meet God. At Mount Sinai, the people were told to wash before they came before God. Jesus seems to be saying that baptism is something commanded by God, for everyone - even for sinless man. Jesus submitted to baptism as it symbolised his own death and resurrection, and also in so submitting he was endorsing what this death and resurrection taught. Part of the teaching of John the Baptist was: Isaiah 40:6-8 (KJV): 6 The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: 7 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass. 8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever. Jesus, in submitting to baptism, was acknowledging that he was mortal, subject to death, because of Adam’s transgression. He had inherited flesh and blood from Adam through Mary his mother, and in submitting he acknowledged God’s righteousness in involving all of Adam’s descendants to suffer and die. But also revealed in Christ was the Word of God, the character of the only begotten Son of God, full of grace and truth. Because he did no sin, and because He was this fullness of the Divine character, grace and truth, and because of God’s love and fellowship with him, the grave could not hold him, and the Word of God was raised from the dead, to stand for ever. When we believe and are baptised into the death and resurrection of Jesus, we acknowledge the same principles that were revealed in Jesus’ death and resurrection, and were also symbolised in his own baptism at the hands of John. By this process the righteousness of God is declared. Romans 3:23-26 (KJV): 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. The voluntary offering of Jesus in crucifixion, death and resurrection was as our representative, (not as a substitute) and in him God’s righteousness is upheld and declared, and if we identify with him in faith and baptism, then we will be forgiven of our sins. Kind regards Trevor Ulunruh 1 Quote
Ulunruh Posted March 26, 2018 Posted March 26, 2018 Thanks for a well thought out answer to the thread's question. It opens the "historical event" of Christ's baptism into very meaningful contemplation of its significance to the whole plan of salvation. I'm reminded of Romans 6 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7For one who has died has been set free[b] from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. Also -- Christ was baptized not only by water, but also by the Spirit. This too, is to be our experience. Matt. 3:16 when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him John 8:11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. Quote
8thdaypriest Posted March 27, 2018 Author Posted March 27, 2018 Good thoughts. I was also thinking of the priesthood. The first step in the consecration of Aaron and his sons was to "wash them with water" (Lev. 8:6). Jesus would become our "high priest forever", and we will become "priests of God and of Christ" (Rev. 20:6), so we are first "washed". Hebrews 10:22 "Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water." 1 Corinthians 6:11 "And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God." In the upper room, Jesus said to Peter: "He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit:" (Joh 13:10 KJV) After the ceremonial washing, priests had only to wash their hands and their feet from the Laver in the courtyeard (Exodus 30: 19 & 21) before offering sacrifice or entering the Tabernacle. Hand washing was traditional to begin the Passover meal, so it is probable the disciples had already washed their hands. Quote 8thdaypriest
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted March 27, 2018 Moderators Posted March 27, 2018 I tend to think that as Christ lived the life that we must live, and as all of us typically need to be baptized, Christ, followed the example that applied to us. NOTE: My response does not exclude what others have said. phkrause 1 Quote Gregory
8thdaypriest Posted March 27, 2018 Author Posted March 27, 2018 The baptism of the Spirit, follows baptism by water. It did for Jesus. The baptism of the Spirit brings the gifts of the Spirit. phkrause 1 Quote 8thdaypriest
8thdaypriest Posted March 27, 2018 Author Posted March 27, 2018 I do not believe that baptism is optional. Jesus said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (John 3:5 NKJ) Why command the disciples to baptize, if it was optional? Quote 8thdaypriest
TrevorL Posted March 27, 2018 Posted March 27, 2018 Greetings Greg, 5 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said: I tend to think that as Christ lived the life that we must live, and as all of us typically need to be baptized, Christ, followed the example that applied to us. I believe that Jesus is the captain of our salvation, and as such he opens the way to salvation in himself. He leads the way, we follow. As a mortal human being Jesus needed to be saved out of death. He is our representative, not substitute. Hebrews 2:9-10 (KJV): But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. 10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. He is the example of faith, and baptism was one of those steps based on faith. His whole life and ministry are our example and the ultimate summary of his faith is his voluntary laying down of his life to declare the righteousness of God and to reconcile us to God. We should not separate each part, but I believe that his first and primary motivation was to go to the Father and honour Him, and in the process turn towards us and bless us. I agree with chilco that Romans 6:1-8 teaches the need for us to identify with the baptism, and hence the crucifixion and death and resurrection of Christ. I also believe that we need to identify by faith in both the baptism of Jesus and his crucifixion, death and resurrection on a daily basis. Galatians 2:20 (KJV): I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Kind regards Trevor Quote
GayatfootofCross Posted March 27, 2018 Posted March 27, 2018 I have a dear person in my life who has been wanting to get baptized but everywhere she has turned it's always it is turned into having to join the church/institution. She hasn't found a church that she wants to be a part of. Whether its regarding theology or the congregation itself. ..I have tried. I have found ministers will not baptize period unless...... The lady loves Jesus. But we take great comfort in the Murderer on the cross was assured of His salvation with no baptism. The ages are full of them. Jesus is in the business of throwing open the gates wide. Unlike many theologies and congregations. JoeMo 1 Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
CoAspen Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 He, Christ, lived in a time of much symbolism. Could it not be simply a public symbol of the change in a persons life for His time? In our day and time, when we are not so much, very little, into symbols, we still maintain it, but is it a requirement? If there is no one around to view this 'public statement', does that change or mean anything different about that individual? Would Christ say "Go and dunk thine self"? JoeMo and GayatfootofCross 2 Quote
GayatfootofCross Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 1 hour ago, CoAspen said: He, Christ, lived in a time of much symbolism. Could it not be simply a public symbol of the change in a persons life for His time? In our day and time, when we are not so much, very little, into symbols, we still maintain it, but is it a requirement? If there is no one around to view this 'public statement', does that change or mean anything different about that individual? Would Christ say "Go and dunk thine self"? Philip and the Eunuch had no audience. ....... Years ago ... A dear Saint from 3ABN came to a church that was theoretically close enough by car to visit as a gang of us for a weekend seminar. My Partner, Me, a free Spirit Hippie Lady and an Elderly Mother of Israel. We hung on every word! At the close of the weekend The Saint told us of her story in being called to Ministry and at one point (years later?) She was really convicted to be anointed by oil. She came upon a few passages/stories seeming to urge the importance. And went to various people high up to see if it can be done. No one was willing to do it. I don't know if cause she was a woman or the people around her didn't see the need or... maybe thinking they had no authority to tread that ground? I don't know. I dont even know the Church's official position of pouring oil on the head. Well as the story goes.. she was in a Christian bookstore and came upon a bottle of "anointing oil". The conviction deepened. Well talking to God she went and did it herself. I am not giving the name cause I don't know if I should. But I have my car gang as witnesses. ...... Now I am wondering if to tell my dear lady to baptize herself since she can't get a blessed minister to do it. Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
TrevorL Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 Greetings GatfoC, 51 minutes ago, GayatfootofCross said: Now I am wondering if to tell my dear lady to baptize herself since she can't get a blessed minister to do it. Baptism is first and foremost between Jesus and the believer. If your friend believes the Apostolic Gospel and this motivates her to be baptised, then she can request ANYONE who is sympathetic to her position to baptise her. She will be baptised into Christ, hence not into a religious body or Church. If she requests you to baptise her, what is your or her reticence in this matter? My main caution to you and her is that please consider the need to understand the Apostolic Gospel, and the need to be motivated by this Gospel to be identified with the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Christ. I would personally discuss the fact that the Gospel that Philip Acts 8:5,12 and Paul Acts 28:30-31 preached consisted of things concerning the Kingdom of God and things concerning the Name of Jesus Christ. If you do not believe this Gospel, then your immersion in water will not be a true baptism. Kind regards Trevor Quote
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted March 28, 2018 Moderators Posted March 28, 2018 Baptism without joining a congregation: * Such is generally considered to be against policy in the SDA Church. * Some SDA clergy do such. * I have never done such. * I once stated that I was going to do such if. . . . . [No need to give the details.] * I can think of rare occasions to include there not being an available congregation for one to join, when I might do so. * I am aware of an Islamic who accepted Christ, who was sentenced to death by public stoning, which was carried out, due to his conversion to Christianity. [NOTE: the stones that the people threw at him failed to kill him. Finally the Imman (sp) stopped the execution with a statement that Allah had spared this persons life.] Later a SDA clergy person baptized him under conditions where he knew nothing about Adventism and there was no opportunity for him to learn about Adventism. The SDA clergyperson has not been disciplined by the SDA Church for doing so. There is more that cannot be told. It is clear that God not only saved his life during the stoning, but also placed the SDA clergyperson in a position to baptize him. 8thdaypriest 1 Quote Gregory
GayatfootofCross Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 42 minutes ago, TrevorL said: Greetings GatfoC, Baptism is first and foremost between Jesus and the believer. If your friend believes the Apostolic Gospel and this motivates her to be baptised, then she can request ANYONE who is sympathetic to her position to baptise her. She will be baptised into Christ, hence not into a religious body or Church. If she requests you to baptise her, what is your or her reticence in this matter? My main caution to you and her is that please consider the need to understand the Apostolic Gospel, and the need to be motivated by this Gospel to be identified with the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Christ. I would personally discuss the fact that the Gospel that Philip Acts 8:5,12 and Paul Acts 28:30-31 preached consisted of things concerning the Kingdom of God and things concerning the Name of Jesus Christ. If you do not believe this Gospel, then your immersion in water will not be a true baptism. Kind regards Trevor Would a felt board presentation of Jesus loves me this I know ..work? Thank you for your suggestions, Trevor. We indeed should/could baptize also. What a thought. I'm still raptured by the thought that Jesus lives in us. Now! Talk about credentials! Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
Moderators Kevin H Posted March 28, 2018 Moderators Posted March 28, 2018 I've mentioned before the ancient world thought in terms of cycles. Yes, baptism is a washing away the sins, but it means so much more. It is passing though the Red Sea with the children of Israel, passing over the Jordan with the next generation. We are being Baptized with those who John the Baptist baptized. And it is even remembering that there is something in paganism that is corrupted truth, and there is the universal myth of the hero who defeats the sea monster. This is also why Solomon had this lip to look like he was standing on the water on that waster container at the temple and why Jesus walked on the sea. The baptism of Jesus shows that he is going through this with everyone who in one way or another is reaching out to him. However, in the book of John, Jesus is NOT baptized. John has Jesus above baptism. GayatfootofCross 1 Quote
TrevorL Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 Greetings Kevin H, 1 hour ago, Kevin H said: However, in the book of John, Jesus is NOT baptized. John has Jesus above baptism. Are you suggesting that the record of John and Matthew disagree, or do these records need to be placed side by side and the details compared? The Spirit descended on Jesus after he was baptised in the water by John the Baptist. Kind regards Trevor Quote
GayatfootofCross Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 10 hours ago, Kevin H said: However, in the book of John, Jesus is NOT baptized. John has Jesus above baptism. Thank you! I just saw something beautiful,spiritual, and surprising! Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
JoeMo Posted March 28, 2018 Posted March 28, 2018 On 3/27/2018 at 9:48 AM, Gregory Matthews said: I tend to think that as Christ lived the life that we must live I hate to be "picky", but it seems to me that Christ lived the life we all SHOULD live; but unfortunately, every human except Him has failed. That's why we all need a Savior. CoAspen and LifeHiscost 2 Quote
CoAspen Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 So perfection is possible, Christ was perfect? My understanding is not that he came to 'prove', but to 'save'. In doing so, He did show that Adam and Eve, had They not step into and followed up on temptation, could have led the life Christ designed for them. Yes, there are many 'things' that Christ did, we could also achieve, but perfection, no, because then we would not need a Savior. JoeMo 1 Quote
CoAspen Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 Context...context....The rabbit hole of 'perfectionism' is to small for me! GayatfootofCross and JoeMo 2 Quote
JoeMo Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 18 hours ago, JoeMo said: I hate to be "picky", but it seems to me that Christ lived the life we all SHOULD live; but unfortunately, every human except Him has failed. That's why we all need a Savior. I will modify the above statement to read " I hate to be "picky", but it seems to me that Christ lived the life we all SHOULD live; but unfortunately, I have failed. That's why I need a Savior". I understand that there are many people much less sinful than I am. Maybe they don't need a Savior as much as I do, but they still need a Savior. Quote
TrevorL Posted March 29, 2018 Posted March 29, 2018 Recently one of our senior expositors considered Isaiah 40. What is impressive is the strong figurative language, especially captured in Handel’s Messiah, “Comfort ye …” and “Every valley …”, and this latter one associated with the preaching of John the Baptist. Isaiah 40:3-5 (KJV): 3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. 4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: 5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it. One aspect that arose in the class, and especially in the discussion towards the end of the class, is how this figurative language is reflected in the NT. Luke 3:10-14 (KJV): 10 And the people asked him, saying, What shall we do then? 11 He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise. 12 Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do? 13 And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you. 14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages. John the Baptist gives practical application to the figurative language. Every valley being exalted, and the mountain and hill made low corresponds to sharing clothing and food between the rich and poor. The crooked straight corresponds to the publicans to cease from exaction, and the rough places is applied to the soldiers and their violence, false accusation and seeking spoil. There is an overall greater application of “Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low” in that the preaching of John the Baptist altered the situation in Judea. The Pharisees were rejected by John the Baptist when they came to be baptised because of their pride and failure to repent. On the other hand the poor readily received the preaching and repentance and baptism. This prepared the way for their reception of Jesus and his teaching. Here the salvation of God was revealed outside the Law of Moses. Kind regards Trevor GayatfootofCross 1 Quote
Moderators Kevin H Posted March 30, 2018 Moderators Posted March 30, 2018 On 3/28/2018 at 2:10 AM, TrevorL said: Greetings Kevin H, Are you suggesting that the record of John and Matthew disagree, or do these records need to be placed side by side and the details compared? The Spirit descended on Jesus after he was baptised in the water by John the Baptist. Kind regards Trevor We have to let each individual book first speak for itself, what was the message the author was trying to bring. What are the samenesses and differences. Too many people are not interested in the Bible beyond it being some kind of magical book. Most of us are victims of Fundamentalism. There are much more harder things in the Bible that we close our eyes to. Have you ever noticed that in Mark no one knows who Jesus is until at the cross the Roman centurion is the only person who understands who Jesus is. He is a pagan, so far away from the people who are supposed to know the truth that he proclaims the truth in words that would horrify a good monotheistic Jew. In Luke nearly everyone knows who Jesus is from before his birth, and when we get to the centurion all he says is "he was a good man." The last deception is to make of no effect the word of God. Too many who base their faith on Fundamentalism as they start seeing these would throw out the Bible in the same way many have thrown away Mrs. White because she does not fit the Fundamentalist mold. GayatfootofCross and phkrause 2 Quote
TrevorL Posted March 30, 2018 Posted March 30, 2018 Greetings again Kevin H, 5 hours ago, Kevin H said: We have to let each individual book first speak for itself, what was the message the author was trying to bring. What are the samenesses and differences. I appreciate your comment that we should consider each book on its own merits and the individual message of that particular writer. Perhaps each record makes a different impression on each of us according to our background, environment and how we have studied both the Bible and other material. 5 hours ago, Kevin H said: Most of us are victims of Fundamentalism. There are much more harder things in the Bible that we close our eyes to. I am a bit reticent to endorse your comments here as I do not know exactly what is Fundamentalism. As I believe in the Divine inspiration of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, I am not sure if you would label me as a Fundamentalist. You state that there are many hard issues to resolve and then you give some examples of difficult problems. I will not discuss these, but look again at John the Baptist. From a Bible inspiration perspective, we have three accounts of Jesus being baptised in water, and no direct mention of Jesus being baptised in water in John’s account. Now if you are simply saying that the emphasis or purpose of John can readily exclude the baptism of Jesus in water, then we are back to our initial agreed position. But if you suggest that John is correct and the other three records are wrong, or that the four cannot be reconciled, then I disagree strongly. One step in reconciling the different records is the suggestion that the following occurs after Jesus returns after his 40 days in the wilderness. John 1:29-34 (KJV): 29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. 30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. 31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. 32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Spirit. 34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God. Even here with this passage, we could have trouble with a cursory reading. Is the above recording the baptism of Jesus by the Holy Spirit, on the day mentioned in verse 29, or is John the Baptist simply stating what he had observed at least 40 days previously? I suggest it is after the 40 days, as John the Baptist recognises Jesus as the Lamb of God, even while Jesus was on his way in the vicinity of John. Also in verse 31 it states that the purpose of John baptising in water was so that Jesus would be revealed. Reading the records of Matthew, Mark and Luke together with this record in John clarifies what happened at Jordan. Another aspect that may need reconciling, is why does John make the comment in Matthew 3:13-15 that John initially refused to baptise Jesus, saying he needed to be baptised by Jesus, if John did not realise that Jesus was the Lamb of God until the Holy Spirit came upon him in the form of a dove? I would like any suggestions of how to reconcile this. I have heard one answer, but would like to hear from others. Kind regards Trevor Kevin H 1 Quote
Moderators Kevin H Posted March 30, 2018 Moderators Posted March 30, 2018 As to Fundamentalism, I am talking about the views of inspiration that may have been somewhat subconscious over the centuries, but basically came into a conscious form in the late 1800s as a reaction to Modernism. It was spread in a series of pamphlets in the early 1900s called the Fundamentals and was taught in a series of Bible Conferences coming to a climax at the great 1919 Bible Conference in Philadelphia. The misunderstood doctrine of the shut door while being wrong was still a blessing as it isolated us from the churches falling into either the ditches of Modernism/Preterism or Fundamentalism/Futurism (Dispensationalism). Our church came from such a wide background that we could have either fallen into either camp or split into two churches falling into the two camps. And when we were influenced by this we fell into Fundamentalism but divorced it from it's sister Futurism. It appears that the first person to bring Fundamentalism into Adventism was W. W. Prescott. He read a book, liked it and started to teach it. When Mrs. White learned about it she asked him to stop teaching for a while and to come to help her with her works. She gave him tasks that absolutely horrified him with his fundamentalism mindset. A. G. Daniels and D. M. Canright were also early fans of Fundamentalism who Mrs. White also called and gave similar assignments to. Prescott and Daniels more or less ended up giving up Fundamentalism. Canright gave up Mrs. White's writings and fully embraced the most extreme form of Fundamentalism and joined the most Fundamentalist church, the Northern Baptists. Stephen Haskell and Mrs. White had many long talks and letters with Haskell trying to convince Mrs. White to accept Fundamentalism and how God really works through her and gives his message through her. She disagreeing and telling what her visions do and don't do for her. Both were frustrated that they could not convince the other to join their side, however they remained the best of friends. As the churches were falling into the two camps there was a non-Adventist minister who saw that the churches were falling into two false extremes. He started to preach a middle ground, hoping to encourage people to keep their heads, that the Bible could still be inspired yet contain contradictions and different view points, allow for editing and even have some errors. He became hated by both groups. Sadly he finally lost his ministry when a woman claimed that she was having an affair with her. It was later proved to be a lie but the woman said that she decided it was a smaller sin to lie and stop his preaching of heresy attacking the sacred word of God. Mrs. White had a different opinion of this pastor's message. She took his message, made one change (he saw inspiration as more of a subjective experience, she made it clear that it was a very objective experience.) and used his works for her writings that are not in selected messages, the introduction to Great Controversy, and communications with people such as Haskell on their debates over Fundamentalism. The fight against Fundamentalism increased in the end of the first decade of the 1900s with Adventists reading and siding with the views of the pamphlets "The Fundamentals". Thus Mrs. White started to spend more time fighting it. It was her last great battle, Of course she was an old lady at this time and it was a battle that she was loosing and she died while fighting it. Elder Butler died in 1917. He and his nephew Elder Washburn were united against Jones and Wagner, but they were on opposite sides of the Fundamentalist battle. Elder Butler having written against Fundamentalism as early as the 1880s. In 1919 way too many Adventists were heading to Philadelphia for the 1919 Philadelphia Bible Conference on Fundamentalism. Daniels and Prescott invited them to first stop in Washington DC for a Bible conference. A large part of this conference was trying to teach a more balanced view of inspiration. Willie White was asked to help but he unfortunately had to go out of town. Daniels and Prescott started to make some headway but sadly they did not collect the train tickets to Philadelphia and burn them. The delegates left Washington DC and boarded the train to Philadelphia and brought home the message from the Philadelphia Bible Conference rather than the Washington DC Bible conference. Quote
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