Holy Spirit Withdrawn from earth

[JoeMo]

I as reading "The Great Controversy" in the chapter called the "Time of Trouble" where EGW talks about the Holy Spirit being withdrawn from the earth during the time of trouble.  I tried to verify this claim in scripture and found nothing.  In fact, I found that the Spirit would be poured on all mankind at the end of time.  This causes me to (once again) question EGW's prophetic authority and inerrancy.   If it exists, can someone please show me the scriptural reference(s) from which EGW draws this frightening conclusion?

[JoeMo]

1 hour ago, The Wanderer said:

Any chance you can give exact quote/references for what you have said regarding what EGW said? It would be easier to then explore it.

I'm too lazy to type the whole thing out; but Chapter 39 ("The Time of Trouble") of "The Great Controversy" discusses it.  One thing I will quote from page 615 (at least that's the page in my copy)states "... when the irrevocable decision of the sanctuary has been pronounced and the destiny of the world is forever fixed, the inhabitants of the world will know it not.  The forms of religion will be continued by a people from whom the Spirit of God has been finally withdrawn ..."

[8thdaypriest]

1 hour ago, JoeMo said:

I as reading "The Great Controversy" in the chapter called the "Time of Trouble" where EGW talks about the Holy Spirit being withdrawn from the earth during the time of trouble.  I tried to verify this claim in scripture and found nothing.  In fact, I found that the Spirit would be poured on all mankind at the end of time.  This causes me to (once again) question EGW's prophetic authority and inerrancy.   If it exists, can someone please show me the scriptural reference(s) from which EGW draws this frightening conclusion?

See Great Controversy, Chapter 39 - The Time of Trouble. 

pg 614  "When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth.  In that fearful time, the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor.  The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent.  God's long-suffering has ended.  The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law.  The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation;  the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn.  Unsheltered by divine grace. they have no protection from the wicked one.  Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. " 

I do not believe the redeemed (I don't call them "the righteous") will be without a Mediator/intercessor at any time.   The Son of God was appointed "a priest forever" - not just until probation closes.   I do not believe the redeemed will be supernaturally instantaneously transformed into literally "perfect" people.   That is what the 1000 years are for - a period of rehabilitation and education, before we receive a new earth.  So we won't mess it up the next time.   Who really knows their own heart?  We are committing sins every day, that we are not even aware of.   Instant "perfection" - bypassing our own awareness and conscious repentance is manipulation. 

It is "the wicked" who have persistently resisted the Spirit of God, and refused to confess/repent,  who will be "without an intercessor" - not the redeemed. 

Mrs White seems to equate  "without an intercessor" - and Spirit withdrawn - and "unsheltered by divine grace".    The redeemed with NOT be without grace.  The Spirit will NOT be withdrawn from them.   So why would we think they will be "without an intercessor" ??

[8thdaypriest]

TYPE:  King Saul

1 Samuel 16:14 "But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a distressing spirit from the LORD troubled him.
 

The "distressing spirit" was Satan.  He was "from the LORD" only in the sense that he was allowed to trouble Saul.

[8thdaypriest]

TYPE:  Judas

Luke 22:3  "Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve."

The sin against the Spirit is unpardonable.   The sin against the Spirit is persistent resistance, to the point of unreachable hardness.  

TYPE:  Pharaoh     TYPE:   Israel  

Acts 7:51 "You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you."

The Spirit withdrawn, just means that Christ stops pleading with those who will not be reached/softened.   He is respecting their own choice. 

[8thdaypriest]

In Ezekiel Cpt 10, the Spirit of God departs from the Temple (v.18) - on Nissan 10 by the way.  If the LORD has departed from His Temple, that would mean no forgiveness could be obtained there - wouldn't it.  The people coming to THAT place, would not find forgiveness there.    

The LORD leaves the Temple, and departs the city from the Mount of Olives (most interesting).  The LORD then follows the captives East - to Babylon (11:23-24).  The glory returns - "from the way of the East" - in 43:1-7, to the New forever Temple - the one from which the healing river flows to heal the earth (Cpt 47).  

Before the Spirit departs and the angels of destruction are released to do their work, those faithful to the LORD - are "sealed" (Ezek 9:4-6). 

[8thdaypriest]

On the Pentecost which followed Christ's resurrection, Peter quoted Joel 2, and then said:  "Repent, and let ever one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 'For the promise is to you and to your children and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.'" 

Peter was speaking by inspiration.   Peter believed that it WAS "the latter days", and that this WAS "the latter rain upon the earth".  

Was Peter wrong?  

Why would people living just before Christ's return need LESS of the Spirit's power, than the early disciples of Christ, then those being burned alive or thrown to wild beasts in the Roman arena?   Why would they need LESS of the Spirit's power than Elijah, who stood against the Prophets of Baal.   Today there IS a flood of false teaching - a media blitz, and pressure from all directions.  Why would we today need LESS of the Spirit's guidance and inspiration?  Satan has found that peer pressure and a more subtle attack, can be more effective than overt physical persecution - with some people groups.  

The point is:   "When the enemy comes in like a flood, The Spirit of the LORD will lift up a standard against him" (Isa 59:19 NKJ).   The LORD will lift up this standard through His faithful.   This happened in the past, and it will happen in the future - all the way to the return. 

[B/W Photodude]

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Why would people living just before Christ's return need LESS of the Spirit's power, than the early disciples of Christ, then those being burned alive or thrown to wild beasts in the Roman arena?   Why would they need LESS of the Spirit's power than Elijah, who stood against the Prophets of Baal.  

Who said there would be less of the Holy Spirit's power? While the Holy Spirit may be leaving those who are choosing to remain wicked, that does not mean the people of God will have less. In fact, they will have more. Exactly what is the "Latter Rain" but more of the Holy Spirit?

[B/W Photodude]

2 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I do not believe the redeemed (I don't call them "the righteous") will be without a Mediator/intercessor at any time.   The Son of God was appointed "a priest forever" - not just until probation closes.   I do not believe the redeemed will be supernaturally instantaneously transformed into literally "perfect" people.

 

When God pronounces some to remain righteous and some to remain filthy, that says to me that their reward is fixed and will not change. Something will happen in the righteous that will allow them to remain sinless during the time of trouble. Those are the 144,000. They will have had the character of Jesus as He was on earth fixed in them. While Jesus was on earth, he had to daily live with temptation, but never sinned. I tend to believe His natural self was to not want to sin even if the flesh tempted Him. And that is what the people of God will be like when they are pronounced righteous still. They will live the kind of life Jesus lived. However, Jesus will still be a priest, but no longer a mediator. I also believe that this idea that we can never overcome sin and live without sin to be just about the most dangerous belief that we face in the SDA church. We are frequently exhorted in the Bible to be perfect. Paul says the Holy Spirit will finish that work in us before the great day of the Lord. 

So, if God can call them righteous, who am I to call them anything else?

[8thdaypriest]

11 minutes ago, B/W Photodude said:

Who said there would be less of the Holy Spirit's power? While the Holy Spirit may be leaving those who are choosing to remain wicked, that does not mean the people of God will have less. In fact, they will have more. Exactly what is the "Latter Rain" but more of the Holy Spirit?

So you believe that the Pentecostal outpouring was the "early rain" and there will be another "rain" - the "latter rain" - just prior to the return of Christ.  Is that right?

In Ancient Palestine, the "early rains" were not heavier than the ripening rains.  It was just another period of rain.   Here in East Texas it rains more in Spring and Fall.  During Summer and Winter, it rains occasionally.  But in East Texas "severe thunder storms" are HEAVY!  LOL

[B/W Photodude]

17 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

So you believe that the Pentecostal outpouring was the "early rain" and there will be another "rain" - the "latter rain" - just prior to the return of Christ.  Is that right?

Yes, I do believe in a latter rain. The speed of that outpouring is undetermined to me as well as when it actually starts. However, something tells me it may have already begun. Explain 96,000 baptisms in Rwanda last year. I am not sure much of the Western (NAD,Euro,Aus Divisions) SDA churches will know when the latter rain comes.

[8thdaypriest]

3 minutes ago, B/W Photodude said:

When God pronounces some to remain righteous and some to remain filthy, that says to me that their reward is fixed and will not change.

(Yes.  Can agree with this.) 

Something will happen in the righteous that will allow them to remain sinless during the time of trouble.

(Nope.  Can't agree with this one.  They are judged "sinless" because they are given the robe of Christ's righteousness.)

  Those are the 144,000. 

(I personally believe the 144,000 could be those who live to see Christ come.  They could also be those who most resemble Christ in character - regardless of when they lived.  That number could also represent ALL of the redeemed.  Standing on Mount Zion - could be symbolic for standing with the LORD.  They will stand there AFTER He returns.)

They will have had the character of Jesus as He was on earth fixed in them. While Jesus was on earth, he had to daily live with temptation, but never sinned. I tend to believe His natural self was to not want to sin even if the flesh tempted Him. And that is what the people of God will be like when they are pronounced righteous still. They will live the kind of life Jesus lived. 

(As I said, I believe they will have "the robe" of Christ's righteousness to cover them.  They are NOT perfect yet - inside.  Zechariah 3:4 "who said to those standing in front of him, 'Take those filthy garments off of him.' Then to him he said, 'See, I am taking your guilt away. I will clothe you in fine robes.'")

However, Jesus will still be a priest, but no longer a mediator.

(A "mediator" is a go-between, a representative between one party and another.   If God needed His Son to represent Himself to sinless angels, why would He not continue to have His Son represent Himself to humans - even redeemed ones?)  

I also believe that this idea that we can never overcome sin and live without sin to be just about the most dangerous belief that we face in the SDA church. We are frequently exhorted in the Bible to be perfect. Paul says the Holy Spirit will finish that work in us before the great day of the Lord. 

(I do believe that redeemed human beings will eventually, completely stop sinning.  I just don't believe that will happen BEFORE Christ returns.  Lots of people have believed in Christ and then died before they stopped sinning.  When they wake up on the resurrection morning - will they instantly stop sinning?  That would mean their thinking would need to be changed artificially, supernaturally.   If the LORD were going to use the "Easy Button" like that - why didn't He just use it back in the garden, and skip all this mess?  I believe the healing will be a process.  Until that healing process is complete, we will have "the robe" of Christ's righteousness to cover us. )

So, if God can call them righteous, who am I to call them anything else? 

Several concepts and beliefs in there.  My comments are in red.

[8thdaypriest]

On 4/21/2018 at 6:19 PM, The Wanderer said:

And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. (Gen 6:3, KJV)

Just looking at the pre-flood context of this verse.  Was the LORD saying that "man" (mankind) would perish 120 years from the day these words were spoken?   

Was this a prediction of how length of life would be shortened?   (To 120 years max.)

[thx4mercy]

JoeMo, why in the world would you bother reading a book by Ellen White?

[Gregory Matthews]

In an eaqrlier post, Rachel has posted the      quote below:

There is a large segment in Adventism who would agree with much that  Rachel said below, with the exception of her thinking on the 1,000 years.

 

See Great Controversy, Chapter 39 - The Time of Trouble. 

pg 614  "When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth.  In that fearful time, the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor.  The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent.  God's long-suffering has ended.  The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law.  The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation;  the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn.  Unsheltered by divine grace. they have no protection from the wicked one.  Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. " 

I do not believe the redeemed (I don't call them "the righteous") will be without a Mediator/intercessor at any time.   The Son of God was appointed "a priest forever" - not just until probation closes.   I do not believe the redeemed will be supernaturally instantaneously transformed into literally "perfect" people.   That is what the 1000 years are for - a period of rehabilitation and education, before we receive a new earth.  So we won't mess it up the next time.   Who really knows their own heart?  We are committing sins every day, that we are not even aware of.   Instant "perfection" - bypassing our own awareness and conscious repentance is manipulation. 

It is "the wicked" who have persistently resisted the Spirit of God, and refused to confess/repent,  who will be "without an intercessor" - not the redeemed. 

Mrs White seems to equate  "without an intercessor" - and Spirit withdrawn - and "unsheltered by divine grace".    The redeemed with NOT be without grace.  The Spirit will NOT be withdrawn from them.   So why would we think they will be "without an intercessor" ??

[thx4mercy]

On 4/21/2018 at 7:16 AM, JoeMo said:

This causes me to (once again) question EGW's prophetic authority and inerrancy.  

Why in the world would you bother reading a book by Ellen White?

[thx4mercy]

2 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

Why in the world would you ask such a question.

Because if I didn't believe that a person was an inspired prophet of God, I would not waste time reading a book by them.

[thx4mercy]

1 hour ago, The Wanderer said:

What I do not know though is why its wrong for someone to read one of her books?

I guess I must have been confusing.  I myself believe that Ellen White is an inspired prophet of God given for the end times.  But JoeMo said he "questions her prophetic authority and inerrancy."  So it just baffles me that if he thinks that way, why spend hours reading one of her books?

[JoeMo]

15 hours ago, thx4mercy said:

JoeMo, why in the world would you bother reading a book by Ellen White?

Just because I don't believe that EGW was a prophet in the OT sense does NOT mean I don't respect her as an inspired writer, like many other revivalists like Billy Graham and Jonathan Cahn.  There are some things EGW states that IMHO are contrary to a plain read of scripture (at least my understanding of it).  There are also many inspired insights into scripture in her writings; and I have learned from her writings over the years.

[8thdaypriest]

On 4/22/2018 at 7:28 PM, thx4mercy said:

Because if I didn't believe that a person was an inspired prophet of God, I would not waste time reading a book by them.

I have shelves and shelves of "books" by different authors - all writing commentary on the Bible.  I read those books.  Why wouldn't I read EGW?  I no longer regard her as an infallible "prophet".  I believe some things she wrote are just wrong.  But I read things published under her name, because I find much well written commentary on things Biblical, which I can then incorporate into my own thinking.  I read her with a filter - that filter being the Bible and science and history.  I read her with the understanding that she was NOT infallible.  (Swollen heads and deformed limbs resulting from masturbation - just one example). 

[JoeMo]

5 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

(Swollen heads and deformed limbs resulting from masturbation - just one example). 

I wish you would quit mincing your words!

[8thdaypriest]

19 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

I would like to see specific reference for this.

 Comment: The small tract - An Appeal to Mothers, was the first writing of Mrs. White on health reform after her “health reform vision.”  The subject of this tract was the “soul destroying vice” of  “self abuse.”  Coincidentally, the Whites had just visited a health sanitarium run by a Dr Jackson.  He had written tracts on this subject, and strongly taught against "self-abuse".   

    “Females possess less vital force than the other sex, and are deprived very much of the bracing, invigorating air, by their in-door life. The result of self-abuse in them is seen in various diseases, such as catarrh, dropsy, headache, loss of memory and sight, great weakness in the back and loins, affections of the spine, and frequently, inward decay of the head. Cancerous humor, which would lie dormant in the system their lifetime, is inflamed, and commences its eating, destructive work. The mind is often utterly ruined, and insanity supervenes.”  A Solemn Appeal (Appeal to Mothers) pg.73

COMMENT:  Females - at every stage of life, from conception to old age, have MORE "vital force" than males.  More female fetuses survive, and women live longer.

    “The state of our world was presented before me, and my attention was especially called to the youth of our time. Everywhere I looked, I saw imbecility, dwarfed forms, crippled limbs, misshapen heads, and deformity of every description. Sins and crimes, and the violation of nature's laws, were shown me as the causes of this accumulation of human woe and suffering. I saw such degradation and vile practices, such defiance of God, and I heard such words of blasphemy, that my soul sickened. From what was shown me, a large share of the youth now living are worthless.”  An Appeal to Mothers pg.17  

    “It is not the taxation of study alone that was doing the work of injury to your children, but that their own wrong habits were sapping the brain, and robbing the entire body of vital energy.  The nervous system was becoming shattered by being often excited and thus laying the foundation for premature and certain decay.  Self -abuse is killing thousands and tens of thousands.”  Manuscript Releases Volume Five pg. 396 (Letter to Dr. and Sister Lay, Feb. 13, 1870)

“The minds of some of these children are so weakened that they have but one half or one third of the brilliancy of intellect that they might have had, had they been virtuous and pure.  They have thrown it away in self-abuse.  Right here in this church, corruption is teeming on every hand.”  Testimonies for the Church volume Two pg. 361

There is no present medical evidence that masturbation causes any problems, other than a loss of zinc (for males) if practiced to excess. 

 

 

[LifeHiscost]

Since the thread is about the Holy Spirit being withdrawn from the earth, maybe this would be better evidence.

 

Could California Ban The Bible? 

https://radio.foxnews.com/2018/04/24/could-california-ban-the-bible/

 

God is Love!~Jesus saves!    Time for Jesus to come.

[CoAspen]

The Fox article is not accurate, normal for them, and the site is a blog from talk show hosts. It qualifies as opinion not news. A simple review of the said Bill....

AB 2943, as amended, Low. Unlawful business practices: sexual orientation change efforts.

Existing law, the Consumer Legal Remedies Act, makes unlawful certain unfair methods of competition and unfair or deceptive acts or practices undertaken by any person in a transaction intended to result result,or which results results, in the sale or lease of goods or services to any consumer. Existing law authorizes any consumer who suffers damages as a result of these unlawful practices to bring an action against that person to recover damages, among other things.

Existing law prohibits mental health providers, as defined, from performing sexual orientation change efforts, as specified, with a patient under 18 years of age. Existing law requires a violation of this provision to be considered unprofessional conduct and subjects the provider to discipline by the provider’s licensing entity.

This bill would include, as an unlawful practice prohibited under the Consumer Legal Remedies Act, advertising, offering to engage in, or engaging in sexual orientation change efforts with an individual. The bill would also declare the intent of the Legislature in this regard.

 

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201720180AB2943

The unamended bill is about fraudulent advertising practices. Much data is supplied in the bill amendment for the context of the addition to it.

 

Of course the sky could fall down tomorrow, the wolf is coming, the wolf is coming.....

[Gregory Matthews]

Moderator Speaking:

I consider this thread to be  both interesting and of value.  As to the three (3)  comments pertaining to the proposed law in California, that issue has been addressed. in the Religious Liberty section.  I would like to see any further comments on that posted in the Religious  Liberty section.