How Important Is Correct Doctrine to Salvation?

[JoeMo]

There are several of us on this forum who's opinions differ from that of the SDA Church and prevailing SDA tradition.  Some recent examples are the inerrancy of EGW, and the Trinity.  While I agree that there are certain doctrinal beliefs "necessary" for salvation (e.g., belief in the God of Israel, belief that Christ is the only hope for salvation, a certain degree of conformance to the Laws of God).  But there are other doctrines or strong traditions that we argue over that (IMHO) we don't necessarily need to believe to be saved.

Do we have to believe EGW was an inerrant prophet to be saved?

Do all Christians have to keep the 7th-day sabbath to be saved?

Do all Christians have to believe in the Trinity (Three Persons in One God) to be saved?

Do we have to believe in the pre-existence of Jesus to be saved?

Do we have to abstain from unclean foods to be saved?

Do we have to abstain from all alcohol and nicotine to be saved?

There are many other examples of things that people passionately defend that maybe don't need such passionate defense.  It might be necessary for some and not for others.  For example, my honoring of the Sabbath feels like a necessary part of my personal doctrine to be saved.  But that doesn't lead me to believe that all Sunday-Keepers are condemned; or that the Sabbath will be THE end-time issue.

I'm not starting this thread to defend or condemn any non-mainstream points of doctrine.  It's just that I think certain non-salvational topics and/or the people who support them can feel marginalized when they go "Outside the Limits".

[Joel Melashenko]

A very interesting topic..I’ll give much more time in thought and study before posting, but I look forward to this discussion.

[8thdaypriest]

If Jesus is "the way" and no man comes to the Father except through Jesus, than believing in Jesus as Savior - is salvational.  

People "believe in Jesus" on many levels and in many ways.  Some believe He was liternally begotten from His Father before anything was created.  Some believe He is a co-equal member of the Trinity.  Some believe He retained His divine nature during His incarnation.  Some believe He "emptied Himself" of all divine power before incarnating, to take on human nature.  There are many different things that people believe ABOUT Jesus.   Most of these doctrinal differences are not essential to salvation.  

Jesus said, "If you love me, keep My commandments."   Apparently - just believing in Christ as savior, is not enough.  Now the debate begins over just which commandments are His, the extrapolated meaning of each commandment, and what we need to do if/when we have not kept those commandments.  Were THE 10 His Commandments?  (I would say yes.)  

If one knows to do good, and does not do it - to him it is sin.   The more we learn, the more we have to confess/repent.  Teachers for instance, will be held to a "higher standard". 

I would say there are TWO salvational issues.  1)  Belief in Jesus Christ and His resurrection  2)  Attempting - on a personal level, to do what Christ commanded, believing that Christ in me, will make me able to do those things.  

  

[dgrimm60]

JOEMO

are we talking about BIBLE DOCTINE or church doctrine???

the bible points out that the  7th DAY SABBATH is very important===

also staying away form any alcohol is biblical  ==we are to be in good health

as well as the TRINITY=== one church does not think is important

as for the pre existence is also very important and pointed our in the bible as important ==the same church also thinks this is not important

the unclean meats is also important for our bodies  are the temple of GOD to keep clean

so  every thing here is very important to GOD if not they why did GOD put all these in the bible

so yes every true  follower of GOD needs to put all these things in there mind and life style

 

as for the last point on believing ELLEN WHITE  === the 7TH DAY ADVENTIST church was raised up 

to make things clear and to put all the bible truth in one church  belief=== ELLEN WHITE  was used

by GOD to do this

so  to answer your question I will say  YES if we want to follow GOD all the way all these will be in our minds and life style

 

dgrimm60

 

 

 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

1 hour ago, JoeMo said:

Do all Christians have to keep the 7th-day sabbath to be saved?

Do all Christians have to believe in the Trinity (Three Persons in One God) to be saved?

Do we have to believe in the pre-existence of Jesus to be saved?

Do we have to abstain from unclean foods to be saved?

Do we have to abstain from all alcohol and nicotine to be saved?

IF the Lord has convicted you, that you should believe such, or abstain from such, then FOR YOU, this becomes a salvational issue.  Why?  Because you are responding to your Lord and King.  Will you obey Him as your LORD, or not.  

The salvational issue is NOT the doctrine, or the abstinence.  The issue is whether you will obey the Lord you have chosen.   Paul wrote that "each one is tested".  Adam and Eve were tested.  I believe that everyone who is awarded eternal citizenship in the Father's kingdom, will have been tested.  We are afforded many opportunities to pass and retry, during our lifetimes.  Jesus was afforded only one chance.   He had to succeed each and every time.   

[Kevin H]

I agree with The Wanderer's excellent first post. The issue is to know God as our personal friend (which is the aspect of God's love and personality that we as Christians believe is Jesus).

Doctrines are things to help us have a clearer picture of Jesus.

Superstitions  are things that make our picture of Jesus less clear.

In the movie of the life of John Wycliffe there is a scene where a mother is grieving because her priest preached that lighting bugs were the souls of the babies who died without being baptized suffering in hell. How important was it for the mother's salvation to know that what she heart the priest teach is not a teaching in the Bible?

Looking at some of your questions:

Do we have to believe EGW was an inerrant prophet to be saved? 
Come now, what kind of a stupid question is this? Mrs. White herself did not believe that she was an inerrant prophet. There is no such thing as an inerrant Mrs. White, no such thing as an inerrant Paul, an inerrant Isaiah, an inerrant Moses, an inerrant Matthew etc. The idea of an inerrant prophet is just as much nonsense as the idea that lighting bugs are the babies who died without being baptized suffering in hell.

Do all Christians have to keep the 7th-day sabbath to be saved?

The Sabbath is 1/3 of the Exodus 20 version of the 10 commandments. The first third teaches us about loving God supremely, the role of God the Father. The last third is how the Holy Spirit changes us into loving and lovable people who love our neighbor as ourselves. The middle third tells us that the only way to keep the other 2/3rds is through resting in a relationship with this God, it is the role of Jesus. There is a blessing in the Sabbath. It helps us see more about Christ and less of superstition. But it is just a servant in the process.

Do all Christians have to believe in the Trinity (Three Persons in One God) to be saved?

With out the trinity we have an unbalanced picture of God. All of our pictures of God are incomplete (and since we will always be finite and God is infinite we always will have an incomplete picture of God.) but holding in tension the 3 aspects of the trinity is what keeps us balanced. The WHOLE of Satan's work are wrapped up in 3 lies about God. Each one of the 3 lies are about an aspect of the trinity.

Do we have to believe in the pre-existence of Jesus to be saved?

He won't hold it against you. However, if you do not believe in the trinity, then human nature has a tendency of picking one of the three thirds of the trinity and make that 1/3 god in total. In the western world we tend to attach ourselves to God as power/God as authority/God the Father. Emphases tends towards  authority and submission. The tendency is to preach the law the law the law until we are as dry as the hills of Gilboah. A person in this situation may not be lost, but they are in danger of becoming quite beastly and thus accepting the mark of the beast.

In Eastern religions they tend to emphasize the work of God working with our subjective. The work of the Holy Spirit, but make that aspect of the trinity god in total. So they look inward. But there are 3 voices inward: The Holy Spirit, Satan and the demons, and self, our thoughts and feelings. Eventually our judge of reality is our feelings and that is spiritualism.

Isn't it interesting that while Satan is comfortable with about half the world worshiping God the Father as god in total, and the other half worshiping God the Holy Spirit as god in total, we don't find any aspects that focus fully on God the Son as god in total.

Do we have to abstain from unclean foods to be saved? Do we have to abstain from all alcohol and nicotine to be saved?

Maybe not to be saved, but it decreases our risk of health issues that shorten the time we can spend with our friends and family and other loved ones, or at least decrease our interactions with our loved ones. Pigs tend to have a higher form of self awareness and fear of death than is found in many other animals. What kind of character does it develop to want to put those poor animals through this just to worship our taste buds?  

 

 

 

[JoeMo]

11 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

To me, in my meagre understanding, this kind of thinking simply means that all truth/doctrine is relative, and that ONLY if YOU believe it, it is truth

 I agree that there is an absolute truth; and that truth is found in Jesus Christ and in scripture.  The problem is that hardly anyone agrees on what the Bible says or what Jesus said; so few if any know what all those absolute truths are.  Even within our own denomination, if you get 2 SDA's together you get 3 different opinions on some "doctrines" (official or otherwise).

I know that I am convicted of some things that are very important to me that others scoff at.  And vice-versa. Do I quit believing in something because the majority of people don't believe it?  If that's the case, I would have never converted from Catholicism to Adventism.Do I look down my nose at someone else because they don't believe like I do? If that were the case, I'd have very few friends.

IMHO, few if any of us will know the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth until we reach the Kingdom.  But that shouldn't stop us from searching.

[8thdaypriest]

13 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

To me, in my meagre understanding, this kind of thinking simply means that all truth/doctrine is relative, and that ONLY if YOU believe it, it is truth. Does that sound right to anyone? Its like saying that its only "truth" to some people. But I do agree that its not the doctrine that is the issue. I will not be "saved" because of anything I do or believe. Otherwise; it truly is "salvation by works." The reason I stated that NO doctrine will "save us" is because its true. That happens, through a Person, and what He has done. Not in what I believe. I preached a sermon years ago called "getting doctrinal." I will share bits of it here as time permits

"only if you believe it, it is truth".   

I wouldn't say that.  Truth is truth - whether one is aware of that truth, or not.  

Jesus said, "IF you were blind (ignorant of the truth of Jesus as Messiah) you would have no sin" (Jn 9:41, 15:22, 15:24).      God does not COUNT against us, those sins we commit because of ignorance (UNTIL we "see" them).   

If I (for instance) only "see" a few truths, I am responsible for those few truths - not the vast ocean of all truth.   The sin offering for the congregation covered all sins committed in ignorance.   Yes - those are STILL SINS.   But they were put upon Christ, and so they are not counted against the one who sinned in ignorance. 

Does this mean that we should just keep quiet about the Law, or "sins" or doctrines, lest we cause someone to become guilty, when they were free of guilt before they "heard" ?   

Does this mean that we can/should keep quiet about inconvenient truths - the ones that our friends, or other Christians don't like or don't agree with - lest we cause controversy? 

[8thdaypriest]

2 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

John 7:17  If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Everyone posting here wants to "do His will".   I'm sure that everyone here prays and is searching for truth.   That is why we respect each other.  

But we do disagree - significantly.   

Does that mean (for instance) that I will be "lost" because I sincerely believe and teach (after much study and prayer) that our God is NOT "three beings" ?  

Or (in your view) will I just learn the truth, when I get to the kingdom? 

What genuinely held doctrinal belief would keep me OUT of the kingdom?

Saul genuinely believed that Jesus followers were a threat to Israel and the true faith.   That is why he was forgiven for persecuting them. 

[JoeMo]

There is a difference between what we "know" to be truth and what we "believe" to be truth.  Faith is different from fact, because (IMHO) there is always a measure of doubt associated with faith.  For example, If I promise to give you $5.00 this afternoon, you would "believe" strongly that I would give you $5.00; but you would concede that there is a possibility that I won't.  That is some measure of doubt.  When tomorrow rolls around, it would be a "fact (no doubt whatsoever) on whether I gave you $5.00 or not.

IMHO, it's the same way with our spiritual experience.  We believe that God created the universe; and that Jesus' sacrifice is the only adequate atonement for our sins.  But do any of us - even for a moment - sometimes doubt or question these things?  I do - in my dark moments.  There are strong biblical arguments on both sides certain things that people consider to be strong doctrine.  Who has "the truth"? (Hint: it's not you (plural you) or me.

To me, many of these things will not be universally accepted by true believers until we get to the Kingdom.  At that time, Jesus clearly reveals to us the absolute eternal truths ("doctrines") when we are changed to be like Him and see Him face to face.  No matter what our personal positions are on these things, if we truly love the Lord we will readily change our opinions if Jesus says we're mistaken.  For example, if Jesus tells me that the Holy Spirit is indeed a Person, I will become a Trinitarian faster than you can blink.  I won't dare ask Him to prove it by introducing me to the Person of the Holy Spirit. At that point, "belief" becomes "fact" - no more doubt at all.

[8thdaypriest]

It seems natural that folks with a set of doctrinal beliefs, especially ones that influence how their worship is practiced (like Sabbath, like Catholics with the Mass,  like Pentecostals with "falling out" and speaking in tongues, like eating only "clean" meats)  would meet together, and would begin to separate themselves from folks who do not hold those beliefs.   Is this not how believers in Christ have split up into some 100+ denominations?   

[dgrimm60]

JOEMO and anyone else

JESUS CHRIST  died for  every person that has lived on this earth==== GOD THE FATHER===JESUS===THE HOLY SPIRIT gave us the

bible as an instruction book for us to have a health mind==health body==and health spirit life

the diet is world wide not just for people in the UNITED STATES===the bible out lines  how ot eat===what no t to drink===

teaches us about where the dead people are ===about his judgment and also HIS love of people===every thing you listed 

in the 1st post TO GOD  is important for HIS follower to believe and accept in to their minds and life style

any thing else would be going against GOD so if we want to follow GOD 100% then we need to follow ALL of GODS  instructions totally

any other way is   following out own way to heaven ===and the bible says there is only 1 way to heaven

and if we want to get to heaven and be with GOD THE FATHER===JESUS===THE HOLY SPIRIT then we have to do it HIS WAY

dgrimm60

 

[LifeHiscost]

5 hours ago, dgrimm60 said:

JOEMO and anyone else

JESUS CHRIST  died for  every person that has lived on this earth==== GOD THE FATHER===JESUS===THE HOLY SPIRIT gave us the

bible as an instruction book for us to have a health mind==health body==and health spirit life

the diet is world wide not just for people in the UNITED STATES===the bible out lines  how ot eat===what no t to drink===

teaches us about where the dead people are ===about his judgment and also HIS love of people===every thing you listed 

in the 1st post TO GOD  is important for HIS follower to believe and accept in to their minds and life style

any thing else would be going against GOD so if we want to follow GOD 100% then we need to follow ALL of GODS  instructions totally

any other way is   following out own way to heaven ===and the bible says there is only 1 way to heaven

and if we want to get to heaven and be with GOD THE FATHER===JESUS===THE HOLY SPIRIT then we have to do it HIS WAY

dgrimm60

 

And besides;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRXyVbCVj-c

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

[JoeMo]

18 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

 Is this not how believers in Christ have split up into some 100+ denominations?

Try over 33,000 denominations; broken down as follows:

Inde­pen­dents: 22,000 denom­i­na­tions

Protes­tants: 9000 denom­i­na­tions

Mar­gin­als: 1600 denom­i­na­tions

Ortho­dox: 781 denom­i­na­tions

Catholics: 242 denom­i­na­tions

Angli­cans: 168 denom­i­na­tions

Source: World Christian Encyclopedia; Oxford University Press

[8thdaypriest]

17 hours ago, dgrimm60 said:

JOEMO and anyone else

JESUS CHRIST  died for  every person that has lived on this earth==== GOD THE FATHER===JESUS===THE HOLY SPIRIT gave us the

bible as an instruction book for us to have a health mind==health body==and health spirit life

the diet is world wide not just for people in the UNITED STATES===the bible out lines  how ot eat===what no t to drink===

teaches us about where the dead people are ===about his judgment and also HIS love of people===every thing you listed 

in the 1st post TO GOD  is important for HIS follower to believe and accept in to their minds and life style

any thing else would be going against GOD so if we want to follow GOD 100% then we need to follow ALL of GODS  instructions totally

any other way is   following out own way to heaven ===and the bible says there is only 1 way to heaven

and if we want to get to heaven and be with GOD THE FATHER===JESUS===THE HOLY SPIRIT then we have to do it HIS WAY

dgrimm60

 

I think you missed the point of this thread.   

I read a story in the newsletter from The Jesus Film Ministry.   Told about a couple in China (just recently), who knew nothing about Jesus, hearing about Him for the first time through The Jesus Film, in their Chinese language, viewed on a cell phone using a microchip given to them by a friend who had also come to hear about Jesus in the same way.   After viewing the film many times, they gave their hearts to God and His Son, and prayed (for the very first time in their lives) to belong to Christ.  This couple knew nothing about the Bible except the story of Jesus from the Gospel of Luke (that's what is portrayed on the film).  They knew nothing about different doctrines.   

If they died (let's say in a terrible earthquake) the next week, would they be in the Kingdom??????   I say YES.  

[8thdaypriest]

10 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I think you missed the point of this thread.   

I read a story in the newsletter from The Jesus Film Ministry.   Told about a couple in China (just recently), who knew nothing about Jesus, hearing about Him for the first time through The Jesus Film, in their Chinese language, viewed on a cell phone using a microchip given to them by a friend who had also come to hear about Jesus in the same way.   After viewing the film many times, they gave their hearts to God and His Son, and prayed (for the very first time in their lives) to belong to Christ.  This couple knew nothing about the Bible except the story of Jesus from the Gospel of Luke (that's what is portrayed on the film).  They knew nothing about different doctrines.   

If they died (let's say in a terrible earthquake) the next week, would they be in the Kingdom??????   I say YES.  

If they had died BEFORE they watched the video and BEFORE they prayed to belong to Jesus, would they be in the Kingdom?   

[dgrimm60]

8TH DAYPRIEST  AND JOEMO

the Chinese couple would be in GODS KINGDOM  if they died===  and yes  there are many denominations

but the bible says in EPH 4: 5  - 6  ===one LORD, one faith, one baptism, one GOD AND FATHER of all

there is 1 truth that is the bible truth   so unless we teach the other people in other denomination about

all the bible truths that is if they do not die and live to serve HIM these people need to learn then 

they can make a choice to follow   all the bible truths or stay in their own man  made beliefs

yes come as you are but then a change  has to be make to worship THE FATHER==JESUS===HOLY SPIRIT 

THE BIBLE WAY

dgimm60

[8thdaypriest]

4 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

You have no authority of any kind to say either "yes" or "no" to someone being "saved" or not. Thats something ONLY God gets to do. I dont think anyone except you has "missed the message" of this thread.

Do I THINK the LORD who died for them, would give to them eternal life?  Yes I THINK so.  Just my opinion Wanderer.  Sorry - if it sounded otherwise.   Do I have to put IMHO before every post?  Isn't it a given here, that folks are sharing their opinions? 

The tread asked how many doctrines one must believe and practice, in order to "be saved".  Right?  

The people I described were did not hold any doctrines except to believe that Jesus is the risen Son of God who died for them, so they could receive eternal life.   

How is THAT missing the point of this thread?  

I was NOT SAYING that other truths or doctrines are unimportant, or can knowingly be discarded.   Study of the Scriptures, and expanding ones understanding of the truths therein, is very important. 

The people I described did NOT HAVE  a Bible.  They had only the dramatized version of the Gospel of Luke.   (I might note that all dialog in the film is from the Book of Luke, and follows that Book.  Even SDA missionaries in other countries are fine with that film. )  

To posit another example,  what about people living during the Dark Ages when all services over most of Europe were conducted in Latin, by priests.   Most Christians during that era knew very little of what the Bible said, because they did not own Bible's themselves.  Most could not read at all, much less the Latin.   Superstition was liberally mixed with what little truth reached the people.   In that situation,  what beliefs or doctrines or practices would determine ones salvation?   

[Lone Ranger]

I have to say that I am a "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." person.

But I do think that "doctrine" helps us express our view on various aspects, so from that perspective they can be useful. The danger may come when one tries to make the doctrine "the thing" when it's actually Jesus.

[JoeMo]

9 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

You have no authority of any kind to say either "yes" or "no" to someone being "saved" or not.

I don't think Rachel is passing judgement; she's simply stating an opinion; one that I happen to agree with.  But what do I know?  God's standards are different than mine or Rachel's.  He judges the heart; not the outward reaction to some movie.  Jesus said that whoever believes shall not perish, but have everlasting life.  If these Chinese folks believe that Jesus is who He says He is and did what the gospels say He did, who are we to say they aren't saved?  We can't say either way.  It's God's choice.

[thx4mercy]

17 hours ago, Lone Ranger said:

The danger may come when one tries to make the doctrine "the thing" when it's actually Jesus.

Doctrines are the teachings of Jesus.  How can they be separated?

[JoeMo]

1 hour ago, The Wanderer said:

Is 1 Cor 13 all one doctrine, or separate doctrines all tied together?

 

1 hour ago, thx4mercy said:

Doctrines are the teachings of Jesus.  How can they be separated?

This is getting into a definition of doctrine that never occurred to me.  I have always considered doctrine to be what you must believe to be a Christian (e.g., the 28 Fundies).  Not to be "picky", but 1Cor. 13 is the teachings of Paul, not Jesus.

That being said, should the entire Bible be considered as doctrine?  Maybe; if we could all agree on what the Bible actually is "saying"; but we dont.  That won't happen until the Kingdom. The original question was how important is it to salvation to "get it all right" and practice it consistently?  IMHO it will be impossible throughout this Age.

[Lone Ranger]

1 hour ago, thx4mercy said:

Doctrines are the teachings of Jesus.  How can they be separated?

I actually define "doctrine" a little differently. "Doctrine" is the teaching of the church/religious organization(s).  As such it can be wrong.

The teaching of Jesus is a different, although related, entity. As such it CANNOT be wrong. But sometimes we don't understand it. Which  leads to "What the Bible SAYS is not as important as what WE THINK the Bible says.

[8thdaypriest]

On 8/2/2018 at 2:33 PM, Lone Ranger said:

I actually define "doctrine" a little differently. "Doctrine" is the teaching of the church/religious organization(s).  As such it can be wrong.

The teaching of Jesus is a different, although related, entity. As such it CANNOT be wrong. But sometimes we don't understand it. Which  leads to "What the Bible SAYS is not as important as what WE THINK the Bible says.

If a man believes a doctrine (which turns out to be a false teaching), and believes that he is obeying God by fulfilling the requirements of the doctrine (let's say confession to a priest and penance), FOR HIM is obedience to that doctrine "a test" in the eyes of God?   

Yes - I realize we cannot "know".   I'm just asking if belief (concerning theological doctrine) becomes salvational IF one believes that it is - if one sincerely believes that God wants him to do those things.   His obedience of those teachings, does demonstrate his attitude towards God.   Does it not?  Even if he is doing the wrong things. 

Paul's sincerity for instance - when rounding up followers of Jesus.   Our attitude towards God, is primary - whether humbly obedient, or lukewarm and uncaring,  or actually rebelling against.  

[8thdaypriest]

doctrine >noun a set of beliefs or principles held and taught by a Church, political party, or other group. 
-DERIVATIVES doctrinal >adjective doctrinally >adverb. 
-ORIGIN Latin doctrina 'teaching, learning'.

From the Oxford University Press Dictionary

Our world is so divided.  Folks are so weary of arguments and division.  They want peace and fellowship.   I think that is why they want to avoid "doctrines".  They know that doctrinal differences may cause them loss of family, or church fellowship, or their entire social support.  Possibly their employment as well.  They are afraid - of doctrines.

In the Middle Ages, the Roman church tortured people to death - over doctrinal differences.   Small church groups fled Europe - over doctrinal differences.   Islamic radicals kill those who oppose their doctrines - about "God".  In the US presently, political "doctrines" are tearing communities apart.  Each side blames the other.  

How I long for Jesus return!!  I imagine His angels holding small gatherings, where we can ask hundreds of questions, and come to understand exactly what is TRUE.  Each person will listen with heart completely open to receive it.  

Until then, we discuss the Bible text.  That's what He has preserved for us.  The Bereans were "more fair-minded" (open minded) and "searched the Scriptures" to find out what was true (Acts 17:11).  

Do I believe Paul was inspired of God?  Yes!!  Do I believe Paul was infallible?  No.  I believe Paul's choice to appear at Jerusalem, and to offer sacrifices was a mistake, and clearly ignored the clear warnings from Christ.  

Do I believe the surviving ancient manuscripts - the ones we have today, are completely without error?  No.  The manuscripts  do not match up perfectly.  There are passages that were purposefully altered.  Others were altered unintentionally.   

We MUST discuss doctrinal differences with respect for each other - because we know that we will not understand "absolute pure truth" - all of it, while we are yet in this world.  We "see through a glass darkly".  

And we know that Christ will forgive sins of unintentional ignorance. 

The sister you debate with,  may live beside you in the kingdom.