How Important Is Correct Doctrine to Salvation?

[8thdaypriest]

In the last days, the BEAST will persecute people 

1.  "who keep the commandments of God"

2.  "who hold the testimony of Jesus"

What does this say about essential doctrinal beliefs?   Says - IMHO - that belief in Jesus Christ as Son of God, Lord and King, is essential.   Says that belief must be demonstrated in actions - keeping His commandments.   1 John 2:4  Whoever says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person." 

This does leave room for debate about "what He commands" and also debate about whether the Son of God began to exist, or has always existed (without beginning), and debate about whether the Spirit is a third divine personal being.    

 

[JoeMo]

On 8/2/2018 at 2:07 PM, The Wanderer said:

are you sure about this my friend?

Yes, but I am confident that 1 Cor. 13 is inspired.  Substitute the word "God" for the word "Love" in 1 Cor. 13; and it describes "God" to a "T".  Maybe that's why 1 John 4 is all about how "God is Love".

[JoeMo]

4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Yes - I realize we cannot "know".   I'm just asking if belief (concerning theological doctrine) becomes salvational IF one believes that it is - if one sincerely believes that God wants him to do those things.

This question gets to the heart of why I started this topic.

[JoeMo]

I have heard SDA preachers say that people who do not accept SDA doctrine my be sincere; but they are sincerely wrong.  Is it possible that we are sincerely wrong about some of our doctrine (whether described in the 28 Fundies or simply embedded in SDA culture and tradition)?

[Gail]

It's a hard question, and a great one! ✅

My thought is that Scripture gives us parts of the equation. What I think most important is the heart condition. Are we friends with God? Do we know His voice and follow our Shepherd as the flock depends on a human shepherd?

If doctrines are anything like other topics I have searched in the Bible, our understanding of them is puny at best. And then, with puny understanding we smash others over the head with our verbal and judgmental mallets.

I love 1 Cor. 13, too! Love trumps even the most God-blessed gifts. To me that is basic and I have a ways to go to even BEGIN to grasp it.

[dgrimm60]

HEY ALL

if we look at the 27 or 28 doctrines of the S.D.A. church  they should all go side by side with the bible truths 

dgrimm60

 

[8thdaypriest]

IMO,  attitude (of heart/mind) towards God -  is of paramount importance.   If one is humble, open, seeking to please HIM,  sorry for sins,  willing to change - this is the ATTITUDE God desires.  We cannot generate that attitude within ourselves.  Only the indwelling Spirit of Christ - working IN us, can generate that attitude.  

Galatians 4:6 God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!" (NKJ)

It is the Spirit of His Son - IN our hearts, that causes us to cry out to our Father God.  

Even faith is a gift to us, through His Spirit.  We can't even believe, without His Spirit - in us.  

Which brings the whole question down to,  receiving or resisting His Spirit.   This is the exercise of our FREE WILL.

Acts 7:51 "You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.  (NKJ)

Which is why the sin against the Holy Spirit is DECISIVE.   The sin against the Holy Spirit - is resistance.  Without that Spirit, one cannot come to Christ.  

Jesus said, "No one can come to Me unless drawn BY My Father."   and    "No one comes to the Father but BY Me."  

I don't understand exactly HOW all of this works.  I do believe that everyone feels the drawing, pulling, power of God's Spirit.  How the person then RESPONDS to that pulling/drawing/convicting - towards belief and faith and loving works (and yes, true doctrine) - that RESPONSE determines whether one is ultimately drawn to Christ as Savior, or resists - and that determines whether Christ can "save".  

It comes down to our FREE WILL.   Will we receive or resist?

How many times have I read about Muslim converts telling their stories - saying they "just felt deeply" that something was very wrong with their beliefs, and that "there must be something more".   That "more" was/is Christ.  Muslims are embracing Jesus risen - by the millions.   This is the work of the God's Spirit.  

 

[8thdaypriest]

On 8/2/2018 at 11:57 AM, The Wanderer said:

 

1 Cor 13:1  If I speak in the languages of humans and angels but have no love, I have become a reverberating gong or a clashing cymbal.

1 Cor 13:2  If I have the gift of prophecy and can understand all secrets and every form of knowledge, and if I have absolute faith so as to move mountains but have no love, I am nothing.

1 Cor 13:3  Even if I give away everything that I have and sacrifice myself, but have no love, I gain nothing.

1 Cor 13:4  Love is always patient; love is always kind; love is never envious or arrogant with pride. Nor is she conceited,

1 Cor 13:5  and she is never rude; she never thinks just of herself or ever gets annoyed. She never is resentful;

1 Cor 13:6  is never glad with sin; she's always glad to side with truth, and pleased that truth will win.

1 Cor 13:7  She bears up under everything; believes the best in all; there is no limit to her hope, and never will she fall.

1 Cor 13:8  Love never fails. Now if there are prophecies, they will be done away with. If there are languages, they will cease. If there is knowledge, it will be done away with.

1 Cor 13:9  For what we know is incomplete and what we prophesy is incomplete.

1 Cor 13:10  But when what is complete comes, then what is incomplete will be done away with.

"God IS love."   

To be "without love" = to be without God - indwelling.   

The redeemed will be resurrected and "changed"  by the power of that indwelling.   

"Christ in us" = EVERYTHING.   Without HIM - we are nothing, and have nothing, and will have nothing.  

[JoeMo]

58 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

In verity, true oneness, Bible unity, is always centered around The Person Jesus.

The more I think about this - that Jesus is the central salvational doctrine - the more I agree with you.  If we truly believe in our heart (not just our mind) that Jesus is who He says He is (i.e., the Way the Truth, and the Light) and did what He said He would do (give eternal life in all who believed in Him), the more I think we will automatically respond in love and obedience learning as much about the Lover of our souls as we can.  Through His Word and the leading of His spirit, he can have His law and character (iow - doctrine) written on our hearts.

[Lone Ranger]

Given that "doctrine" is "a belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a church, political party, or other group. (Wikipedia)", Therefore:

What you believe about Jesus...is doctrine.

If someone asks you who Jesus is, and you tell them, ….that's doctrine.

If someone has a loved one who is dying, and they want to know what happens when you die....that's doctrine.

If you believe in a personal relationship with Jesus....that's doctrine.

So to argue whether Jesus is doctrine or not is moot, because...THAT is doctrine.

[JoeMo]

5 hours ago, Lone Ranger said:

So to argue whether Jesus is doctrine or not is moot, because...THAT is doctrine.

True; and it is another way of saying that Jesus is the central doctrine.  I don't mean "doctrine" in the sense of a rule or specific belief, I mean it in the sense that Jesus should be the central basis or theme for anything we believe. If anything I believe tends to lead me away from Christ,  I need to rethink it.

[Lone Ranger]

2 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

... "Is everything we say or believe "doctrine?"...

I understand doctrine as more a set of cohesive/related beliefs that explains a point of view.  IOW, all my ideas about what Jesus is like, his personality, his powers, his nature, his mission, etc together creates my "doctrine" of Jesus. Which, in Christianity, is called Christology. Which you already know.

We do the same thing in science, but call them theories instead of doctrines.  Evolutionary theory, Cell theory, Quantum theory, particle theory, string theory, chaos theory. These pull together all the related ideas about something into a logical explanation of it. (or words to that effect)

[JoeMo]

Just to bubble up this topic, I would point you to a great article about doctrine as it pertains to SDA's at https://www.rmcsda.org/mountain-views-magazine under "No Creed But The Bible" starting on page 12.

[8thdaypriest]

56 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Just to bubble up this topic, I would point you to a great article about doctrine as it pertains to SDA's at https://www.rmcsda.org/mountain-views-magazine under "No Creed But The Bible" starting on page 12.

Good article.   I always find myself wondering what the writer would be like, to talk with.   Would he be as open and accepting as he seems.  

[Gregory Matthews]

Rachel:   RB, the author of the article that you cited gave his e-mail address at the end of the article.  Anyone can send him an e-mail.

reinder@bruinsma.com

 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

So long as a person believes in Jesus - as the Son of God, Lord and King, and seeks to serve Him - that person would be "saved".  Is that about it?  

Are we asking what constitutes OUR PART in the salvation process?  I personally believe that our part is to respond to (rather than resist) the drawing/conviction of His Spirit.  

Then what place do "doctrines" occupy?   Are they just frosting on the cake - good but not essential?   Assuming - of course - that the doctrines are true, and not all mixed with falsehood.  

If one is convicted that he should serve the poor,  or travel to a third world country to drill water wells - what then?   If he runs away from that conviction, and refuses to do what the LORD has called him to do - is he risking his salvation?  

What if one is convicted concerning certain doctrines, and is convicted that she should teach those doctrines?   If she refuses, does she risk loosing her salvation?  Or does she just rack up more "sins" to be forgiven for?   

Almost every reformer got a whopping lot of resistance and persecution for their preaching - on doctrines.   Without the reformers - preaching on doctrine, there would have been no Reformation, and we would all be chanting the Rosary.  Doctrines take on immense importance, in light of the Reformation.  

[8thdaypriest]

If "the truth will set you free" - it would seem that every truth would set one free from some falsehood - a false belief about our God, that hinders one's loving/trusting God fully. 

Take the Forever Burning HELL doctrine, for instance.   The LORD commanded, "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind."

You cannot fully love a supreme being if you don't trust Him.   And you cannot trust Him, if you believe Him capable of throwing you into a horrible pit to be tortured forever.  This creates a cognitive dissonance.   One part of your mind says "I must" and "I should", while the other part says "I don't trust Him."   

So the truth that the "second death" is NOT forever burning conscious torture,  sets one free to love God more fully.  

It might be good to look at every doctrine in that light.  For each one - how does it free us to love our God more fully?

The 10 Commandments used to stir up resentment in my mind.   Because I know I cannot keep them perfectly.   Why would my God set up these rules that He knows I cannot keep?   But when I "saw" that the 10 are a promise of what HE will do - in me, then I was set free to love Him even more.  

[JoeMo]

On 9/1/2018 at 10:13 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

So long as a person believes in Jesus - as the Son of God, Lord and King, and seeks to serve Him - that person would be "saved".  Is that about it?  

 

Yes, but it should be believing in one's heart; not just mental assent. It's easy for me to believe that Jesus existed and did a lot of great things.  It's another thing to believe ON Jesus - that He is able to save to the uttermost even the guttermost;, that He loves us and is for us, and to absolutely depend and trust Him to save us.  We can do nothing to save ourselves or "help" Jesus to save us.

[8thdaypriest]

What do you think Joe?  Shall we go through each of the 28, to discuss how each doctrine sets us free in some way, (or not) to love our God more fully?  

[JoeMo]

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

What do you think Joe?  Shall we go through each of the 28, to discuss how each doctrine sets us free in some way, (or not) to love our God more fully?  

I hesitate to do that.  I would be hard pressed to think of a way some of the 28 set us free; I think some of them constrain us  (or the way some of the saints interpret them constrain us).  If all of us can behave ourselves and limit backing up the 28 with scripture only (i.e., not use EGW) to show us the way it might be interesting.

At any rate, no denominational guidelines, arcane interpretations, or "prevailing" Christian opinion can turn me from depending totally on Christ for my salvation; and to prepare me for the Kingdom in any way He sees fit - whether inside or outside of the denomination.

[Lone Ranger]

2 hours ago, JoeMo said:

At any rate, no denominational guidelines, arcane interpretations, or "prevailing" Christian opinion can turn me from depending totally on Christ for my salvation; and to prepare me for the Kingdom in any way He sees fit - whether inside or outside of the denomination.

I'm with you on that, Buddy.

[JoeMo]

The doctrine you speak of which was delivered to us (i.e., the Gospel or "good news") is a lot simpler than many of us make it out to be.  If you got 2 SDA's together, you would get at least 3 different opinions on what "correct doctrine" is.  I'm sure if we discussed specifics, there would be doctrines of which I am sincerely convicted that may not mean a hill of beans to you; and vice-versa.  I'm always open to listening to scripture on a specific belief to determine whether or not I should change my mind.  There are a few occasions where I have actually dome so on this forum; and several in my evolution as a maturing believer.  Biggest example is that I'm not near the Taliban SDA I was 25 years ago.

[JoeMo]

As you all know, I'm not the world's biggest EGW fan.  There's a lot of her stuff I don't agree with; but much that I DO agree with.  I'm not gonna throw the baby out with the bathwater.  One of those statements is below:
"In laboring in a new field, do not think it your duty to say at once to people, 'We are Seventh-Day Adventists; we believe that the seventh day is the Sabbath; we believe in the immortality of the soul.  This would erect a barrier between you and those you wish to reach.Speak to them as you have opportunity, upon points of doctrine on which you can agree.  Dwell on the necessity of practical godliness.  Give them evidence that you are a Christian, desiring peace, and that you love their souls.  Let them see that you are conscientious.  Thus you will gain their confidence; and there will be time enough for doctrines. Let the heart be won, the soil prepared,and then sow the seed, presenting in love the truth as it is in Jesus."  (Gospel Workers pp. 119, 120)