Is Jesus omnipresent?

[Lone Ranger]

From another thread:

Given that I have yet to see a Biblical argument that Jesus is no longer omnipresent, the OP may be seen as a challenge to the Omnipresence of God.

[Kevin H]

The omnipresence is one of the few things we know about the infinite God, the part that the Bible only describes as "Holy, Holy, Holy" The trinity is how the one infinite God reveals God's self inside of time and space. What makes us confused about and debate the trinity is because we want to pin God in total to one of these revelations and don't even think about the fact that God is both outside and inside of time and space. The fact that God has manifestations with in time and space limits omnipresence, but remembering that they are just manifestations with a whole infinite omnipresence outside the realm of time and space shows how the trinity are a oneness of the opposites of both omnipresent and limited.

[Lone Ranger]

11 hours ago, Kevin H said:

The omnipresence is one of the few things we know about the infinite God, the part that the Bible only describes as "Holy, Holy, Holy" The trinity is how the one infinite God reveals God's self inside of time and space. What makes us confused about and debate the trinity is because we want to pin God in total to one of these revelations and don't even think about the fact that God is both outside and inside of time and space. The fact that God has manifestations with in time and space limits omnipresence, but remembering that they are just manifestations with a whole infinite omnipresence outside the realm of time and space shows how the trinity are a oneness of the opposites of both omnipresent and limited.

Impressive. One rarely encounters such well articulated....nothing.

Is there any evidence at all to base these, um, random statements on?

How does one arrive at "omnipresence" from "Holy, Holy, Holy."?

"Limited omnipresence" is....NOT omnipresence.

If Jesus does not posses ALL the characteristics of God, then he is not fully God.

IM(NS)HO.

[LifeHiscost]

1 hour ago, The Wanderer said:

what "evidence" do you have regarding your random statement about "omniscience?" How would you prove from scripture that this is an absolute, as in must have quality for being "fully God?" What is your definition of "fully God" and how would you prove it from scripture?

Is this satisfactory?

Micah 5:2

But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

 

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

[LifeHiscost]

3 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

That doesnt say "Jesus was omnipresent."

Since He is described as "from everlasting". is there some other description more indicative of that neccarry

The term "everlasting" or "eternal," applied to God, describes Him as filling, or enduring through, all the "ages" of time. It is only thus that we can symbolically represent eternity. In reality, however, the eternity of God is not simply His filling of ever-flowing "ages," but rather that aspect of His being in which He is above time; for which time (the succession-form of existence) does not exist; to which the terms past, present and future do not apply. Yet, while God is not in time (rather holds time in Himself), time-sequence, as the form of existence of the world, is a reality for God  

https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/everlasting/

God is Love!~Jesus saves!  

[JoeMo]

Depending on whether you believe God is One, Two, or Three; does every Member of the Godhead need to be present simultaneously for God to be omnipresent? Couldn't one Member (or Power) inherent to the Godhead be omnipresent and instantaneously report to the other Member(s)?

However it works - and I don't pretend to have a clue - I believe God is omnipresent.

[LifeHiscost]

2 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

"Eternal" and "Omnipresent" are two different words, with different meanings.

You're absolutely correct. Could you tell me how He could fulfill this biblical description without being everywhere at once?

 

 

 

 

20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. ..1 John

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

 

 

 

 

 

[stinsonmarri]

I have question this myself even though I believe in THREE INDIVIDUAL BEINGS! But if every eye shall see HIM, then I suspect that this POWER was return to HIM. When HE return to Heaven THE FATHER said ALL POWERS was given to HIS SON. To me that means ALL HIS POWERS were restored. This is a mystery but I like to hear other views on this matter!

Blessings!

[Kevin H]

11 hours ago, Lone Ranger said:

Impressive. One rarely encounters such well articulated....nothing.

Is there any evidence at all to base these, um, random statements on?

How does one arrive at "omnipresence" from "Holy, Holy, Holy."?

"Limited omnipresence" is....NOT omnipresence.

If Jesus does not posses ALL the characteristics of God, then he is not fully God.

IM(NS)HO.

For some much better jobs of well articulated ….nothing. may I recommend:

http://www.biblicalresources.net/product.cfm?product=32

as well as John W. Wood's "Studies in the Great Controversy"  which is available on DVD from the South Lancaster Village Church. In these two works you will find two different theologians, one Methodist the other a Seventh-day Adventist, who have come to the same articulated....nothing.

For a better understanding of the nature of opposites may I recommend Eli Siegel's "Self and World". https://www.amazon.com/Self-World-Explanation-Aesthetic-Realism/dp/091049228X Developed in the 1940s but mostly printed in the 1970s Siegel was both a man a head of his time, as well as a victim of his times. Sadly the Aesthetic Realism foundation sees his ideas as the last words on everything, but there is a proper way to use his works.

As in the number "0" and in a well placed pause, nothing can be quite powerful.

[Kevin H]

Excellent post Wanderer!

Lone Ranger: You are correct in your concern "If Jesus does not posses ALL the characteristics of God, then he is not fully God." And Jesus does indeed possess ALL the characteristics of God and is fully God. The problem is that we try too much to squeeze the trinity, especially Jesus, into a box. And yes, there are aspects of God that accommodates our box, but we need to remember that our box is only a way of us having some comprehension and that God is way out of our box, far beyond our comprehension.

[Rahab]

the Father is omnipresent, the Holy Spirit is omnipresent

but, after Jesus became a man, (100% divine, 100% man) He no longer is omnipresent.....  

Mat 24:23  Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Mat 24:26  Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

[8thdaypriest]

17 hours ago, LifeHiscost said:

Since He is described as "from everlasting". is there some other description more indicative of that neccarry

We have TWO QUESTIONS.  1.  Was the Son of God present through all eternity past, without beginning?   2.  Is the Son of God present in all places now and since the beginning of the creation?  

If you are citing Micah 5:2,  here are my comments on passage.

Micah 5:2  “But you, O Bethlehem of Ephrathah, who are one of the little clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to rule in Israel, whose origin is from of old, from ancient days.” NRS

Micah 5:2  “. . . . whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” KJV

        The words “from everlasting” are sited by those who believe that the Son of God had no beginning, but instead has always existed.  They believe that He was one of three co-eternal divine persons who together make up “God”.  

        The Hebrew translated “goings forth” in the KJV (Strong’s #4163) means “origin.”  This would mean that Christ originated from something, someone, or somewhere.

God the FATHER has no origin. 

Jesus said, “I proceeded forth and came from God” (John 8:42).  “I came forth from the Father (John 16:28).  

From The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament by Harris, Archer, Waltke who give the meaning of “everlasting” as simply “most distant times.”
        The word translated “everlasting” (#5769) is from a root word meaning “to hide,” thus pointing to what is hidden in the distant future or in the distant past.  When the word is used to refer to the past, it generally points to the far distant past, but rarely to a limitless past. 
 
        In Deut. 32:7 and Job 22:15 the word may refer to the time of one’s elders. In Prov. 22:28; 23:10; Jer. 6:16; 18:15; 28:8 it points back somewhat farther.  In Isa. 58:12, 61:4; Mic. 7:14; Mal. 3:4, and in the Aramaic of Ezra 4:15, 19, it clearly refers to the time just before the exile. In 1Sam. 27:8; in Isa. 51:9 and 63:9, 11, it refers to events of the exodus from Egypt.  In Gen. 6:4, it points to the time shortly before the flood.  None of these references has in it the idea of endlessness or limitlessness, but each points to a time long before the immediate knowledge of those living. 

        My personal understanding is that time began with the Son - when He was begotten.  He was the beginning (Jn. 1:1), and He calls Himself “the Beginning” (Rev. 3:14, 21:6, 22:13).  

[8thdaypriest]

Just now, 8thdaypriest said:

2.  Is the Son of God present in all places now and since the beginning of the creation?  

"I am with you always, even to the end of the age"  (Matt 28:20).    Considering that the Apostles went in different directions,  and Christ was with them wherever they went, and later promised to be "there in the midst of" the smallest gathering (Matt 18:20),  that rather convey's the idea of omnipresence. 

But how can a man be omnipresent?   The NT Testament places Jesus - sitting at the right hand of His Father - in Heaven.   This is why many teach that the Holy Spirit (believed to be a THIRD divine being/person,  has to represent Jesus to believers.  

My problem with that teaching, is that it places God (as the Holy Spirit) BETWEEN Jesus and man.   ITim 2:5 says that Jesus is the ONLY MEDIATOR between God and man.   I do not believe that is limited to protecting us from the wrath of God.  I believe it means that Jesus is the communicator - communicating God's messages TO us.   A mediator does not act for one party only.  

Folks immediately point to John 14 thru 16, to support the teaching that the Spirit is a THIRD divine being.   I have several responses to Jesus dialog about the coming Comforter.   But - in short - I believe that Christ was speaking of His coming glorified self.   Once restored to His former glory with the Father, He would once again be omnipresent.  If not in body, then certainly in mind.   He is able to communicate with us.   He is there "with us" and  He communicates with our minds.  He is "in us".   His presence with us, is not just a message sent by Him through another being.  It is Him - in Spirit.  

Paul did say, "God has sent forth the Spirit OF His Son" (Gal 4:6).  

Christ spoke of His glorified self,  in THIRD PERSON, when describing His glorious return.  

Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth: In the age when all things are renewed, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. "

Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory.

[8thdaypriest]

1 hour ago, Rahab said:

the Father is omnipresent, the Holy Spirit is omnipresent

but, after Jesus became a man, (100% divine, 100% man) He no longer is omnipresent.....  

Mat 24:23  Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Mat 24:26  Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

I believe Christ was warning His disciples against any secret coming, one which did not involve "every eye" seeing Him,  in a cloud of glory.  

[8thdaypriest]

I do not believe that God the Father is stuck to one place - sitting on the throne.   I believe God the Father is omnipresent.  

Jesus said,  "No one can come to me unless drawn by the Father who sent me; and I will raise that person up on the last day." (Joh 6:44)

The Father draws men to Christ, who is then the only way to the Father.   Certainly appears the TWO work together.   

It's just my personal view - at this point - but I believe that Father and Son work together.   Christ came to represent His Father.   The Father comes (as spirit) representing His Son.   

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him."

"You also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1Jo 2:24 NKJ)

 It seems that Christ was somehow fused with His Father - when He was glorified.    They were TWO, and yet ONE.   

John 14:11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves." (NKJ)

[LifeHiscost]

1 hour ago, Rahab said:

the Father is omnipresent, the Holy Spirit is omnipresent

but, after Jesus became a man, (100% divine, 100% man) He no longer is omnipresent.....  

Mat 24:23  Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Mat 24:26  Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

I'm of the opinion those scriptures are specifically given in order to warn the followers of Christ not be mistakenly led into pursuing an entity not sent forth by  God Almighty, therefore  seen by only some more privileged humans to follow.

Revelation 1:7

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him.

 

God is Love!~Jesus saves!

[LifeHiscost]

3 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

Are you saying here that Christ was a created Being? That He is not fully God, because of His "goings forth?"

John 17:11

Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.

In Context |

John 17:21

that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

In Context |

1 Corinthians 8:6

yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

 

It seems only logical that any Holy Divine Creator, willing to call us His friend, would not hide the fullness of His Divine attributes from His children, and the only limitation, if it could be called that, are the scars in His body.

 

John 20:27

Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

 

God is Love!~Jesus saves!

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

5 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Are you saying here that Christ was a created Being? That He is not fully God, because of His "goings forth?"

Of course not!  The Son of God was "begotten" - NOT created from nothing, from the mind of God, spoken into existence.  

The Son of God "came forth from the Father".   He existed before the world was created, because He created all things.  

Then - the Father "brought" His Son into our world.  

Hebrews 1:6  "And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, 'Let all God's angels worship him.'" (NRS)

The Son - unassisted - did not bring about His own incarnation.  

[8thdaypriest]

The Son of God was "begotten" - NOT created from nothing, from the mind of God, spoken into existence.  

The Son of God "came forth from the Father".   He said so.  He existed before the world was created, because He created all things.  

Then - the Father "brought" His Son into our world,  incorporated into flesh.   

Hebrews 1:6  "And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, 'Let all God's angels worship him.'" (NRS)

The Son - unassisted - did not bring about His own incarnation.  

When the Son of God - a divine being - incarnated to become fused with flesh, a NEW BEING came into existence - Jesus the Son of Mary, and Son of God.  

Jesus - the man - did NOT exist before.  The Son of God did exist before.  

We speak of His "pre-incarnate existence", but really Jesus (the man) had no pre-incarnate existence.   

When the divine Son of God incarnated, He was profoundly changed - imprisoned in, and limited by, flesh and blood and bone.  

He was no longer a spirit being, no longer powerful,  or omnipresent, or omniscient.   

He had to overcome AS A HUMAN - to recover the dominion which Adam had lost through disobedience, to fulfill the terms of the covenant.  

Having finished that work, He could then be set free from the limitations of flesh.   Divine powers could be restored to Him, poured upon Him by His Father.

[Kevin H]

5 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

The Son of God was "begotten" - NOT created from nothing, from the mind of God, spoken into existence.  

The Son of God "came forth from the Father".   He said so.  He existed before the world was created, because He created all things.  

Then - the Father "brought" His Son into our world,  incorporated into flesh.   

Hebrews 1:6  "And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, 'Let all God's angels worship him.'" (NRS)

The Son - unassisted - did not bring about His own incarnation.  

When the Son of God - a divine being - incarnated to become fused with flesh, a NEW BEING came into existence - Jesus the Son of Mary, and Son of God.  

Jesus - the man - did NOT exist before.  The Son of God did exist before.  

We speak of His "pre-incarnate existence", but really Jesus (the man) had no pre-incarnate existence.   

When the divine Son of God incarnated, He was profoundly changed - imprisoned in, and limited by, flesh and blood and bone.  

He was no longer a spirit being, no longer powerful,  or omnipresent, or omniscient.   

He had to overcome AS A HUMAN - to recover the dominion which Adam had lost through disobedience, to fulfill the terms of the covenant.  

Having finished that work, He could then be set free from the limitations of flesh.   Divine powers could be restored to Him, poured upon Him by His Father.

If the Father could "begat" the son, then why did he not prevent the whole sin problem by also begetting instead of creating Lucifer? Lucifer was upset that Michael was considered to be God, and that he could not be what Michael was. This makes sense if God the Son is the eternal God without beginning because God cannot create another eternal self existent one. But if he could have "begotten" the son, then why could he not have begotten Lucifer and others? This makes God selfish where he arbitrary begot one but created the other.

Coming forth from the father means yielding to the authority of the Father and Holy Spirit. the trinity live in a righteousness by faith relationship with each other based on the law of self sacrificing love.

Sorry 8thday priest, but your mistake is that you want to make God the Father God in total.

 

[JoeMo]

22 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Are you saying here that Christ was a created Being?

I can't answer for Rachel; but NO - Christ was NOT a created being.  Nowhere in scripture is Christ (pre-incarnate or post-incarnate) referred to as a created being.  To me created (in the divine sense) means coming forth from nothing.  Christ did NOT come forth from nothing.  He came forth from the Father - made of the same "stuff" the Father is made from.

[8thdaypriest]

19 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

4. Though this is an intimate union, yet the two natures are not confounded, nor their properties mixed. When the Son of God was manifested in flesh, his divine nature did not become finite, neither did his human nature become infinite. They continued to retain their distinct properties or attributes. They have distinct understandings, and distinct wills, though their operations are always in unison. Thus, though, as God, he knew all things, yet, as man, he is said not to have known the day of judgment (Joh 21:17. Mat 24:36 ).

This sounds like the writer wants to have it both ways.  All powerful "God" and limited physical man - at the SAME TIME.   He knew and did not know - AT THE SAME TIME.  

Don't think I can buy this one.   I believe that the Son of God "emptied himself" of His divine powers (though not His identity) in order to incarnate.  

Upon returning to His Father, and then being "glorified",  many of His divine powers were returned to Him.   

We do not know what we will become, in our new "spiritual body" - what communication skills we may employ, or with what strength we will be empowered.  While we will not be "glorified" as Christ was,  I do believe we will have powers above and beyond what we now possess.   

[8thdaypriest]

18 hours ago, Kevin H said:

If the Father could "begat" the son, then why did he not prevent the whole sin problem by also begetting instead of creating Lucifer? Lucifer was upset that Michael was considered to be God, and that he could not be what Michael was. This makes sense if God the Son is the eternal God without beginning because God cannot create another eternal self existent one. But if he could have "begotten" the son, then why could he not have begotten Lucifer and others? This makes God selfish where he arbitrary begot one but created the other.

Coming forth from the father means yielding to the authority of the Father and Holy Spirit. the trinity live in a righteousness by faith relationship with each other based on the law of self sacrificing love.

Sorry 8thday priest, but your mistake is that you want to make God the Father God in total.

I am posting to you personally, because you have made it personal.

When you get personal Kevin H, and say things like "your mistake" ,  you are being DISMISSIVE.   I do not appreciate it.   Just state what you believe, and why you believe thus, and leave it at that.   

Who are you to say what God our Father, "should" or should not have done?   

I don't know WHY God wanted to create beings in His own image.   He just did.   

I believe the Son of God - after creating beings in the image of His Father and Himself - then took on the form of the created being (as an "angel" - the Angel Michael) to represent His Father to created beings.   He did this long before incarnating to become a man.

Matthew 11:27 "no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." 

You would think - if the Holy Spirit is a THIRD divine being, that "He" would also know the Son, and "He" would know the Father.   

1 Corinthians 8:6 "yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things .  

ALL THINGS are from the Father - including His begotten Son.

Ephesians 4:6 "one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all." 

[8thdaypriest]

3 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government shall be upon HIS shoulder, and HIS name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, the mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Isa 9:6.

I do not see a problem with the Son of God being called "mighty God" or "everlasting Father".   

He is our God, but His Father is "His God".   He said so, long after He returned to Heaven. 

As for "everlasting Father", the Son of God existed before time, therefore He is "from everlasting", or "from eternity".  

The Hebrew has no word grandfather.   Every male ancestor was a "father".   In our language today we could call God the Father - God our Grandfather.   I do.  I often pray to Him as such. 

[8thdaypriest]

On 9/5/2018 at 10:19 PM, The Wanderer said:

Before Abraham was, I am — The words rendered “was” and “am” are quite different. The one clause means, “Abraham was brought into being”; the other, “I exist.” The statement therefore is not that Christ came into existence before Abraham did (as Arians, and semi-Arians affirm is the meaning), but that He never came into being at all, because Jesus existed before Abraham had a being; In other words, Jesus existed before creation, or eternally (as John 1:1). In that sense the Jews plainly understood Him, since “then took they up stones to cast at Him,” just as they had before done when they saw that He made Himself equal with God (John 5:18).

I'm not saying that I understand exactly HOW the Son of God was "begotten" .  I believe it is plain that He existed before anything was created.   I also believe that He was "the Son of God" before anything was created.  

I believe it very possible that ONE became TWO - that God divided Himself, - like cell division.   As one being, God could not truly literally DIE while at the same time He continued to uphold all things.  Not if He really DIED.   There had to be TWO - of HIM.   

There had to be TWO, so that one could resurrect the other.  

Before God divided Himself - to become TWO separate beings (each with mind and will)  - the being known as "the Son" did not yet exist as a separate being.    

You could say that He existed IN God, like Levi existed "in the loins of Abraham", but neither Levi nor The Son yet existed as separate beings from their "parent" of origin.