Is Jesus omnipresent?

[JoeMo]

23 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I believe that the Son of God "emptied himself" of His divine powers (though not His identity) in order to incarnate. 

I still believe that Christ could have taken up His divine powers any time He chose; He just never chose to do so.  If He couldn't have done so, satan's temptations in the wilderness were stupid, because Jesus couldn't have pulled them off if He was not able to call upon His divine powers to do so.

[8thdaypriest]

3 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I still believe that Christ could have taken up His divine powers any time He chose; He just never chose to do so.  If He couldn't have done so, satan's temptations in the wilderness were stupid, because Jesus couldn't have pulled them off if He was not able to call upon His divine powers to do so.

I think it POSSIBLE  - maybe - as an adult, following His baptism and anointing with the spirit of His Father - that He COULD have accessed the powers He left behind.  

But think about the time He spent as a little child,  a pre-teen, a teenager - perhaps more time than He spent living as an adult.  How could a little child, or pre-teen, handle such power, or the possibility of access to such powers?  

The Apocrypha has stories of Christ - as a child - giving life to birds formed out of clay.   I don't believe that for a second.   

[JoeMo]

35 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

But think about the time He spent as a little child,  a pre-teen, a teenager

I have no answer for that.  Another thing - had He accessed those powers on His own without His Father's direction/empowerment,  would that have violated the terms and conditions for redemption?  Would it have been a sin?

[Kevin H]

Maybe this can help some: We all have the sinful nature, or a disposition to think we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world, to serve self to seek the highest place. Jesus did not have this disposition. While we don't have all the answers for that, apparently Jesus did not begin to realize who he was until his bar Mitzva on the trip at the Passover.

[8thdaypriest]

13 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I have no answer for that.  Another thing - had He accessed those powers on His own without His Father's direction/empowerment,  would that have violated the terms and conditions for redemption?  Would it have been a sin?

The whole reason He came as a man, was to overcome as a human being - to fulfill the terms of the covenant (perfect obedience) - in order to reclaim dominion of earth.

Without dominion of the earth, He could not take possession of the humans on the earth.    

God could not just take back the earth from Satan.  It belonged to mankind - even if that meant they would destroy the earth without His continued blessing.   (Which they are well on the way to doing, by the way.)  

God is not some despot who keeps score, and then demands a death as payment.  I have serious problems with that view of the atonement.

 It was about covenant.   Dominion of the earth was "given to" mankind, upon condition of obedience.  The only way for men to keep their dominion (with powerful evil angels around) was for the LORD to protect that dominion.   When Eve/Adam openly rebelled against their Creator (seeking to be as gods) - the LORD could no longer legally protect their dominion.   Satan knew that.   He thought he had won.   He thought that earth and all humans would now be forever under his power.  

The Son of God had to overcome AS A MAN,  to win back dominion of the earth.  Once Christ legally is given the dominion - at the judgment of Daniel 7 - then everything on the earth comes under His rule and protection.  The humans on the earth belong to Him.   He decides who will be protected, and who will not, as the final destruction unfolds.  

Christ is going to make "new heavens" and a "new earth".   The REASON He wanted dominion of this old earth, was to rescue human beings.   He wanted all of them, of course.   But free will allows most to refuse His offer of protection and rescue.  

IF Christ had some super advantage - some power to avoid sinning that Adam did not have - then His overcoming was all a sham.  He didn't really overcome anything.  He did not struggle against sin (and sinning).  He did not fulfill the terms of the covenant with mankind, because He was not really a man at all.  He was more God than man - God just wrapped in a suit of flesh.  They killed the wrapper - not the contents.  He - didn't really die at all.  I've heard some teach this, that only His humanity died.   

I believe the Son of God actually BECAME a human being.   He "emptied Himself" of all divine powers.   He would have ONLY those powers which were "given" to Him, by His Father.  He could not access any other powers.  Angels might obey His commands, because of who He was, but He had no special powers of His own to draw upon.   

Satan wanted Jesus to try to make stones become bread.   He wanted Him to find that impossible, and then to doubt that He was indeed the Son of God.   Jesus knew Satan's game, and refused, effectively saying, "Supernatural powers, or lack of them, don't make me who I am."  

That is my belief - my opinion.  

[phkrause]

Here are some very interesting comments by EGW on this subject!

 

God always has been. He is the great I AM. The psalmist declares, “Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.” Psalm 90:2. He is the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity. “I am the Lord, I change not,” He declares. With Him there is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. He is “the same yesterday, and to day and for ever.” Hebrews 13:8. He is infinite and omnipresent. No words of ours can describe His greatness and majesty. {FLB 42.3}

 

Although our Lord ascended from earth to heaven, the Holy Spirit was appointed as His representative among men. “If ye love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not,, neither knoweth Him; but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless.” Cumbered with humanity, Christ could not be in every place personally; therefore it was altogether for their advantage that He should leave them, go to His Father, and send the Holy Spirit to be His successor on earth. The Holy Spirit is Himself, divested of the personality of humanity, and independent thereof. Christ would represent Himself as present in all places by His Holy Spirit,—as the Omnipresent. “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall [although unseen by you] teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. . . . Nevertheless, I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away, for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you.” {PrT May 30, 1895, par. 7}

Mrs. E. G. White.

 

Cumbered with humanity, Christ could not be in every place personally; therefore it was altogether for their advantage that He should leave them, go to His father, and send the Holy Spirit to be His successor on earth. The Holy Spirit is Himself divested of the personality of humanity and independent thereof. He would represent Himself as present in all places by His Holy Spirit, as the Omnipresent. “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall (although unseen by you), [This phrase was added by Ellen White.] teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you” [John 14:26]. “Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will come not unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you” [John 16:7]. {14MR 23.3}

 

The Omnipresent God sees every criminal act done, and He will judge those who have dared to dishonor Him. Every wrong act will meet its penalty unless the sinner consents to wear the robe of Christ’s righteousness. Will God punish the transgressor of His law according to His justice, or will He soften His justice and refuse to punish? Will mercy triumph over justice? Will His love and unbounded compassion for the creatures He has formed come in and excuse the sinner, the man who has dishonored Him through his life, and who, by his example, has led others to be as regardless of God as himself? These are questions that need to be considered. {Ms143-1898.25}

 

“And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes, and looked, and, behold, there stood over against him, with his sword drawn in his hand; and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto His servant? And the captain of the Lord’s host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoes from off thy feet; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.” [Joshua 5:13-15.] God always has been. He is the great I AM. The psalmist declares, “Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever Thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting Thou art God.” [Psalm 90:2.] He is the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity. “I am the Lord, I change not,” He declares. [Isaiah 57:15; Malachi 3:6.] With Him there is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. He is “the same yesterday, today, and forever.” [James 1:17; Hebrews 13:8.] He is infinite and omnipresent. No words of ours can describe His greatness and majesty. {Ms132-1903.35}

 

OMNIPRESENT, a. Present in all places at the same time; ubiquitary; as the omnipresent Jehovah.

[stinsonmarri]

On 9/5/2018 at 3:16 AM, The Wanderer said:

The trinity is how the one infinite God reveals God's self inside of time and space.

This prove against a trinity because ONE of THE ELOHIYM'S became flesh which is YAHSHUA. That means HE was on earth and THE FATHER was in Heaven so how can THEY be this one that is stated, can't be. SON returns to Heaven sits on THE RIGHT SIDE of HIS FATHER. Then THE SON will return with all of HIS angels, and again THE FATHER is in HEAVEN. The Hebrew word "echad," mean as I will continue to say THE THREE ARE ONE meaning THEY ARE INDIVIDUAL BEINGS who work together just like Adam and his wife became one! THREE ALMIGHTY INFINITE ELOHIYM!!!

Blessings!

[stinsonmarri]

3 hours ago, phkrause said:

Here are some very interesting comments by EGW on this subject!

 

God always has been. He is the great I AM. The psalmist declares, “Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.” Psalm 90:2. He is the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity. “I am the Lord, I change not,” He declares. With Him there is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. He is “the same yesterday, and to day and for ever.” Hebrews 13:8. He is infinite and omnipresent. No words of ours can describe His greatness and majesty. {FLB 42.3}

 

Although our Lord ascended from earth to heaven, the Holy Spirit was appointed as His representative among men. “If ye love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not,, neither knoweth Him; but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless.” Cumbered with humanity, Christ could not be in every place personally; therefore it was altogether for their advantage that He should leave them, go to His Father, and send the Holy Spirit to be His successor on earth. The Holy Spirit is Himself, divested of the personality of humanity, and independent thereof. Christ would represent Himself as present in all places by His Holy Spirit,—as the Omnipresent. “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall [although unseen by you] teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. . . . Nevertheless, I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away, for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you.” {PrT May 30, 1895, par. 7}

Mrs. E. G. White.

 

Cumbered with humanity, Christ could not be in every place personally; therefore it was altogether for their advantage that He should leave them, go to His father, and send the Holy Spirit to be His successor on earth. The Holy Spirit is Himself divested of the personality of humanity and independent thereof. He would represent Himself as present in all places by His Holy Spirit, as the Omnipresent. “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall (although unseen by you), [This phrase was added by Ellen White.] teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you” [John 14:26]. “Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will come not unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you” [John 16:7]. {14MR 23.3}

 

The Omnipresent God sees every criminal act done, and He will judge those who have dared to dishonor Him. Every wrong act will meet its penalty unless the sinner consents to wear the robe of Christ’s righteousness. Will God punish the transgressor of His law according to His justice, or will He soften His justice and refuse to punish? Will mercy triumph over justice? Will His love and unbounded compassion for the creatures He has formed come in and excuse the sinner, the man who has dishonored Him through his life, and who, by his example, has led others to be as regardless of God as himself? These are questions that need to be considered. {Ms143-1898.25}

 

“And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes, and looked, and, behold, there stood over against him, with his sword drawn in his hand; and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto His servant? And the captain of the Lord’s host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoes from off thy feet; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.” [Joshua 5:13-15.] God always has been. He is the great I AM. The psalmist declares, “Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever Thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting Thou art God.” [Psalm 90:2.] He is the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity. “I am the Lord, I change not,” He declares. [Isaiah 57:15; Malachi 3:6.] With Him there is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. He is “the same yesterday, today, and forever.” [James 1:17; Hebrews 13:8.] He is infinite and omnipresent. No words of ours can describe His greatness and majesty. {Ms132-1903.35}

 

OMNIPRESENT, a. Present in all places at the same time; ubiquitary; as the omnipresent Jehovah.

Sir: I have great respect for you, but EGW did not have a vision. This were her thoughts and belief. The Bible shows that YAHSHUA became flesh. I never read anywhere in the New Testament where  HE was in various places as the same time. But when HE rose HE SAID:

And then shall appear the sign of THE SON OF MAN in Heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see THE SON OF MAN coming in the clouds of Heaven with POWER and GREAT GLORY. When THE SON OF MAN shall come in HIS GLORY, and all the holy angels with HIM, then shall HE SIT upon the Throne of HIS GLORY: Mat 24:30, 31 

I stand on what she always said and that is to take the Bible. I have quoted from her that she is fallible but only THE ALMIGHTY ONES are not! HE never used HIS POWERS here on earth. Yes DIVINITY flesh through when the Priest and Rabbi's insulted HIS FATHER'S HOUSE but HE always prayed to HIS FATHER.  Actually the Bible only speaks that every eye will see HIM that shows THE POWER we call OMNIPRESENT. Everybody all around the world will see HIM coming at the same time. That is what the Bible said, but I have never read anything like this anywhere else in the New Testament. If so can please show me.

Blessings!

[stinsonmarri]

On 9/4/2018 at 2:40 PM, Lone Ranger said:

If Jesus does not posses ALL the characteristics of God, then he is not fully God.

A POWER is not THE CHARACTER of THE FATHER, nor HIS SON! Even we have special and unique talents individually as human beings, that has nothing to do with the character of our parents that we have. Can you kindly show me that power means a character?

Blessings!

[8thdaypriest]

4 hours ago, phkrause said:

Here are some very interesting comments by EGW on this subject!

 

God always has been. He is the great I AM. The psalmist declares, “Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.” Psalm 90:2. He is the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity. “I am the Lord, I change not,” He declares. With Him there is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. He is “the same yesterday, and to day and for ever.” Hebrews 13:8. He is infinite and omnipresent. No words of ours can describe His greatness and majesty. {FLB 42.3}

 

Although our Lord ascended from earth to heaven, the Holy Spirit was appointed as His representative among men. “If ye love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not,, neither knoweth Him; but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless.” Cumbered with humanity, Christ could not be in every place personally; therefore it was altogether for their advantage that He should leave them, go to His Father, and send the Holy Spirit to be His successor on earth. The Holy Spirit is Himself, divested of the personality of humanity, and independent thereof. Christ would represent Himself as present in all places by His Holy Spirit,—as the Omnipresent. “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall [although unseen by you] teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. . . . Nevertheless, I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away, for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you.” {PrT May 30, 1895, par. 7}

Mrs. E. G. White.

 

Cumbered with humanity, Christ could not be in every place personally; therefore it was altogether for their advantage that He should leave them, go to His father, and send the Holy Spirit to be His successor on earth. The Holy Spirit is Himself divested of the personality of humanity and independent thereof. He would represent Himself as present in all places by His Holy Spirit, as the Omnipresent. “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall (although unseen by you), [This phrase was added by Ellen White.] teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you” [John 14:26]. “Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will come not unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you” [John 16:7]. {14MR 23.3}

 

The Omnipresent God sees every criminal act done, and He will judge those who have dared to dishonor Him. Every wrong act will meet its penalty unless the sinner consents to wear the robe of Christ’s righteousness. Will God punish the transgressor of His law according to His justice, or will He soften His justice and refuse to punish? Will mercy triumph over justice? Will His love and unbounded compassion for the creatures He has formed come in and excuse the sinner, the man who has dishonored Him through his life, and who, by his example, has led others to be as regardless of God as himself? These are questions that need to be considered. {Ms143-1898.25}

 

“And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes, and looked, and, behold, there stood over against him, with his sword drawn in his hand; and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto His servant? And the captain of the Lord’s host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoes from off thy feet; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.” [Joshua 5:13-15.] God always has been. He is the great I AM. The psalmist declares, “Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever Thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting Thou art God.” [Psalm 90:2.] He is the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity. “I am the Lord, I change not,” He declares. [Isaiah 57:15; Malachi 3:6.] With Him there is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. He is “the same yesterday, today, and forever.” [James 1:17; Hebrews 13:8.] He is infinite and omnipresent. No words of ours can describe His greatness and majesty. {Ms132-1903.35}

 

OMNIPRESENT, a. Present in all places at the same time; ubiquitary; as the omnipresent Jehovah.

We agreed that comments by EGW would not be used in this thread.   Several of us posting in this thread do not accept her as a prophet.  We prefer Sola Scriptura. 

[8thdaypriest]

1 hour ago, stinsonmarri said:

This prove against a trinity because ONE of THE ELOHIYM'S became flesh which is YAHSHUA. That means HE was on earth and THE FATHER was in Heaven so how can THEY be this one that is stated, can't be. SON returns to Heaven sits on THE RIGHT SIDE of HIS FATHER. Then THE SON will return with all of HIS angels, and again THE FATHER is in HEAVEN. The Hebrew word "echad," mean as I will continue to say THE THREE ARE ONE meaning THEY ARE INDIVIDUAL BEINGS who work together just like Adam and his wife became one! THREE ALMIGHTY INFINITE ELOHIYM!!!

Blessings!

This thread is about the nature of Christ.  Is He presently omnipresent?   

When Gregory sees this post he is going to move this thread to the "Outside the Limits" forum, under Trinity Topics.

[8thdaypriest]

4 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

The Holy Spirit is Himself, divested of the personality of humanity, and independent thereof. Christ would represent Himself as present in all places by His Holy Spirit,—as the Omnipresent.  EGW

I think I've been saying the same thing.   The Spirit Comforter IS Christ glorified.   Jesus was speaking of His future glorified SELF - not of a different divine being, a third divine being. 

"The last Adam was made a life-giving spirit" (1Cor 15:45).  

Christ is the last Adam.  He was made spirit.   Christ glorified IS with us and in us.  

[Gregory Matthews]

O.K.  I see that people are speculating as to whether or not I will move this thread to another location:

*  I have reviewed all three pages of this thread.  I find that the majority of the posts have been about the omnipresence of Jesus.

*  There are a few posts that have gotten into the Trinity.    I do not want to move  this long thread that is primarily devoted to another subject based upon the minority of the posts.

*   So, I suggest that we continue to discuss the main issue of this thread--the omnipresence of Jesus.  I can agree that this might lead to a minor reference to a Trinitarian issue.  But, there is a section devoted to a discussion of that issue.  Let us continue to focus in this thread on the main issue.

*  We are clearly not going to prohibit people posting abut EGW and what she wrote.  However, in this thread a request has ben made to not quote EGW and to quote more from the Bible.  I think that we can do so in  this thread.  So, while I am not removing the few quotes that have been made I this thread, let us respect the wishes of those who have made that request and continue to focus on the Bible.

 

  

[B/W Photodude]

On 9/4/2018 at 12:02 AM, Lone Ranger said:

From another thread:

Given that I have yet to see a Biblical argument that Jesus is no longer omnipresent, the OP may be seen as a challenge to the Omnipresence of God.

13 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

We agreed that comments by EGW would not be used in this thread.   Several of us posting in this thread do not accept her as a prophet.  We prefer Sola Scriptura. 

11 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

*  We are clearly not going to prohibit people posting abut EGW and what she wrote.  However, in this thread a request has ben made to not quote EGW and to quote more from the Bible.  I think that we can co so in  this thread.  So, while I am not removing the few quotes that have been made I this thread, let us respect the wishes of those who have made that request and continue to focus on the Bible.

As noted by one other poster, I do not see where "we" agreed not to post EGW! In the original post, it was only stated that the poster had not seen a Biblical argument. I write this because I happen to value the written works of others including those long out of our company. I have one Adventist friend that seems to get upset when one will quote EGW. But what are books of a person's writings but a way to be a part of a discussion after their earthly existence has ceased? It is the ultimate of Proverbs that their part under the sun is gone, so shut up and lay in your grave quietly!

I also find it strange that a discussion in an SDA forum should exclude EGW. I find many of her writings to be very illuminating for many Bible texts. But then so does the works of Waggoner, Andreasen, Douglas, Goldstein, and many more help me understand what is in Scripture. Everyone should not have to re-invent the wheel every time they pick up their Bible.

So, if anyone is making a Biblical argument, they are only pontificating on their own understanding and nothing but direct Bible verses should be allowed!

[stinsonmarri]

16 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

This thread is about the nature of Christ.  Is He presently omnipresent?   

When Gregory sees this post he is going to move this thread to the "Outside the Limits" forum, under Trinity Topics.

Rachel did you see the quote? "The trinity is how the one infinite God reveals God's self inside of time and space." My question kindly to you, so it is alright to define trinity here but I cannot comment on the quote? Did you write the same comment to this person as you did to me? Can one comment on what they claim and the other cannot present their claim? The thread is not the NATURE of YAHSHUA which is another word for character. The theme states: "Is YAHSHUA OMNIPRESENT." I think I explain to another that OMNIPRESENT is a POWER and not YAHSHUA'S NATURE/CHARACTER.

My very first comment on this thread states; "I have question this myself even though I believe in THREE INDIVIDUAL BEINGS!" So I brought it up briefly then. I just want understand why would Pastor Matthews move this base on what I responded to?

Blessings!

[Gregory Matthews]

Stinsonmarri:  I am sorry to have to tell you that you were not the focus of my post.

No, we do not prohibit posting from EGW.  I simply asked if we could refrain from doing so in this thread.  So, I am not suggesting that anyone did wrong.

You will all notice that I have not moved the thread.

 

 

 

[stinsonmarri]

On 9/8/2018 at 10:38 PM, The Wanderer said:

Many people keep trying to dilineate Christs nature/substance from texts like this which have nothing, or very little to do with the actual Substance of Deity. It is literally a pointless exercise in isolated word or verse "study." (called Pretext by some, Proof text by others). Sometimes, it seems to me, that "study" to some people, simply means "my opinion."

I agree if I understand Wanderer correctly. Why do we even use the word substance, these are HOLY BEING! I am not a substance I am a being that is flesh and became a living soul! By WHOM, THE CREATORS of course. I think we don't even realize that we use words that is so beneath THEM! The Bible expresses over and over THE EXALTATION of THE FATHER and THE SON. THE HOLY SPIRIT never speaks of HIMSELF so much of the record about HIM is silent and we should respect that too!

Wings are given to angels to cover themselves before THE ALMIGHTY FATHER and all bow down, even the elders cast their crowns down in reverence. Coming boldly before the Throne should not take away our reverence.

Finally, this is not mythical, or some scientific absurdities, THEY ARE BEINGS and THEY made the universe. I watch Origin on the Hope Channel, even time of the first day of the week at 7:00 pm eastern time. It was base on just scientific fact alone. It proves the truth of the Bible and creation. It was fascinating and I cried and I shouted and I praise THE ALMIGHTY ONES.  These scientists were magnificent explaining the facts down to the proteins in the universe, chemicals in the universe, molecules and cells in our bodies, RNA in the DNA. It was on today at 12:00 pm eastern time. Maybe Pastor Matthews can try to get it. Then we should never use the word substance again!  Because THEY ALL ARE OMNIPRESENCE!!!!!!

Blessings!

[Gregory Matthews]

My knowledge of the Biblical languages is very limited and subject to being wrong.  IOW, what I say in this area should be ipso facto considered to be without error.  :)  But the following are my comments on statements as to whether or not Hebrew has a word for "grandfather."

*  Modern Hebrew often differs from Biblical Hebrew.  Words and their meanings that exist today may not be exactly that same as existed in Biblical times.

*  Biblical Hebrew often contained Aramaic words and words of other Semitic background.

*  Modern Hebrew, in addition to the above often contains Yiddish words.

*  Biblical Hebrew often used the phrase translated as "father of his father" to reference a grandfather.

*  In Biblical times an Aramaic word existed that could be translated as grandfather.  That word has been transliterated several different ways, one of which is "saba."   But, that word is not a Hebrew word, it was an Aramaic word that entered the Hebrew language.  

 

 

 

 

[Rahab]

On 9/7/2018 at 3:28 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

I'm not saying that I understand exactly HOW the Son of God was "begotten" .  I believe it is plain that He existed before anything was created.   I also believe that He was "the Son of God" before anything was created.  

I believe it very possible that ONE became TWO - that God divided Himself, - like cell division.   As one being, God could not truly literally DIE while at the same time He continued to uphold all things.  Not if He really DIED.   There had to be TWO - of HIM.   

There had to be TWO, so that one could resurrect the other.  

Before God divided Himself - to become TWO separate beings (each with mind and will)  - the being known as "the Son" did not yet exist as a separate being.    

You could say that He existed IN God, like Levi existed "in the loins of Abraham", but neither Levi nor The Son yet existed as separate beings from their "parent" of origin.   

You make a good point here.  Kinda like a clone right?

[Rahab]

On 9/7/2018 at 9:26 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

I think it POSSIBLE  - maybe - as an adult, following His baptism and anointing with the spirit of His Father - that He COULD have accessed the powers He left behind.  

But think about the time He spent as a little child,  a pre-teen, a teenager - perhaps more time than He spent living as an adult.  How could a little child, or pre-teen, handle such power, or the possibility of access to such powers?  

The Apocrypha has stories of Christ - as a child - giving life to birds formed out of clay.   I don't believe that for a second.   

note:  there are things in the apocrypha that differ from the Bible...  so do read with caution

[Rahab]

Just another note here:

This topic seems to tread on dangerous ground.  So much that we really don't know.  So much we cannot prove.

maybe silence is golden on such topics? 

 

[JoeMo]

20 hours ago, Rahab said:

Just another note here:

This topic seems to tread on dangerous ground.  So much that we really don't know.  So much we cannot prove.

maybe silence is golden on such topics? 

 

Thanks for the heads-up Rahab.  Given the people participating in this thread, I don't think it will "derail" anyone's salvation.  Because there is so much we don't (or can't) understand, I know for me this is just an interesting discussion.  Nothing here will change my "theology".

[8thdaypriest]

On 9/8/2018 at 7:37 PM, The Wanderer said:

Cumbered with humanity, Christ could not be in every place personally; therefore it was altogether for their advantage that He should leave them, go to His Father, and send the Holy Spirit to be His successor on earth. The Holy Spirit is Himself, divested of the personality of humanity, and independent thereof. Christ would represent Himself as present in all places by His Holy Spirit,—as the Omnipresent. {PrT May 30, 1895, par. 7}

I copied it from a post by phkrause.  We weren't going to quote EGW, but since he already did, I thought I would call attention to what she said, so those who quote her constantly could see that I'm not so far off. 

[8thdaypriest]

On 9/11/2018 at 12:50 AM, The Wanderer said:

Do you have any scripture in mind that would support these ideas, even a little bit?  I have, for convenience, listed the points by number, to clarify how you would extrapolate these things from the Bible

Do you have any Scriptures - specifically - that say there are THREE DIVINE BEINGS, or a command to worship the Holy Spirit,  or any example that believers did so ?

Or will you just quote Ellen White  (AFTER 1893)  ?  

I've already given Scriptures supporting the Father as "the only true God", and "God IS spirit".   

His Jesus was "the Son of God" and "the Son of the Father".   He "came forth from the Father" - not just from Bethlehem.  

John 16:28 "I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father." 

[8thdaypriest]

We already know that Jesus IS omnipresent.   "I am with you always" - conveys the idea of omnipresence.  

The question we are asking is HOW.  How can Jesus be omnipresent?   

SDAs believe a THIRD divine being was sent to represent Christ to believers.  So Christ is not really there.  The Holy Spirit is personifying Him.

I believe Christ's divine powers were restored to Him, (by His Father) in His resurrected glorified spiritual state.  These powers enabled Him to communicate - mind to mind - with believers on the earth.  When God (the Father) "sent forth the spirit of His Son" - He did NOT send forth a third divine being.  He sent "the spirit OF His Son" - just as the text says. Gal 4:6