Universalism- basic tenants

[8thdaypriest]

I've recently aquired a Bible study friend who is a Universalist.  She believes the "fire" is spiritual (not literal) and is cleansing.  The "fire" burns out the sin, but doesn't consume the sinner.   Every living sentient being is finally reconciled to God, by seeing His great love.  

Anyone here have some good argument ?   

I already pointed out that it's like the flood of Noah's day, which actually, literally killed almost every person on the earth.   She just said that's what Satan will bring about, but they will be resurrected later, and then reconciled.  

I've argued that God respects our free will informed choice.   I've argued that God does not manipulate human minds.   I've argued that the saved are "born again" and the lost are not.  

Anyone have a really great book or article that goes over all the Universalist arguments and boils it down to a few points?

[JoeMo]

4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Every living sentient being is finally reconciled to God, by seeing His great love.  

Anyone here have some good argument ? 

I agree that God offers reconciliation to every human being (which may be semi-universalism); but there are human beings who probably will  - by their own informed free will - refuse to be reconciled.  God - out of his great love for these people and His respect for free will, will sadly let them go.  He's not gonna drag people kicking and screaming into the Kingdom.

[8thdaypriest]

Yes Joe.   But I need Bible passages to counter the arguments of Universalism.  

I will post the verses my friend gives, and maybe some here will give counter arguments.   I do have a study posted on prophecyviewpoint.com on the topic, but I'm wondering if I have really covered the topic well.  The belief in universal salvation for all, has been around for a long time.  We need to be ready to argue effectively from the Scriptures, to help people out of that deception.

Please be clear.  I DO NOT believe that every sentient being will ultimately be "saved" or given eternal life.  I'm just wanting to find more effective arguments to support MY BELIEF that those who resist God's Spirit, and who fight against the LORD to their last breath, will NOT receive eternal life.  

The belief that God will ultimately reconcile every created sentient being, is very comforting to most.   

Why would it not be?

 

[JoeMo]

4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

But I need Bible passages to counter the arguments of Universalism. 

http://rethinkinghell.com/2017/11/18/three-biblical-arguments-against-universalism/ has some decent arguments.

Many other places I checked out based their arguments against universalism on the existence of an eternal hell as proof against it.  I couldn't go there.

Pure universalism seem to claim that all creation will be redeemed.  To me, that would include angels - fallen angels.  Scripture is very clear that there are angels locked in Tartarus/ the abyss that are destined for eternal death or torment. (See Jude 6-7; 1 Peter 3:19-20; and 2 Peter 2:4)

[8thdaypriest]

I tried the "forever and ever" argument.  She said that "unto the age of the ages" is unclear as to the final period of time.  They (the rebellious angels) might come out cleaned and restored.  

For me, it boils down to whether our God will overpower human will, or human minds.   I DO NOT believe He ever has or ever will.   We  - puny humans - are allowed to resist HIM.  

Do you think the "every knee shall bow" includes every created sentient being, or is this just speaking of every knee that is left - after the cleansing? 

Or is this saying that Satan and his, will finally kneel, admitting that God was right all along.   

I don't believe the last one.  I think Satan will go down screaming "Unjust!  Unjust!", or maybe just the Satanic equivalent of obscenities. 

[Gustave]

On ‎9‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 7:14 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

I've recently aquired a Bible study friend who is a Universalist.  She believes the "fire" is spiritual (not literal) and is cleansing.  The "fire" burns out the sin, but doesn't consume the sinner.   Every living sentient being is finally reconciled to God, by seeing His great love.  

Anyone here have some good argument ?   

I already pointed out that it's like the flood of Noah's day, which actually, literally killed almost every person on the earth.   She just said that's what Satan will bring about, but they will be resurrected later, and then reconciled.  

I've argued that God respects our free will informed choice.   I've argued that God does not manipulate human minds.   I've argued that the saved are "born again" and the lost are not.  

Anyone have a really great book or article that goes over all the Universalist arguments and boils it down to a few points?

Essentially the Jews of Jesus' day taught that everyone, eventually, would be spared. Gehinnom, according to Judaism was understood to be a place of spiritual purification where the individual would eventually get out. Jesus shocked His listeners ( and departed from traditional Judaism ) when He stated it (Gehinnom) was PERMANANT. Jews to this day believe that Hell is basically a washing machine for dirty laundry (souls) and eventually everyone is cleaned up enough to get out. 

Mark 9, 43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where THEIR worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where THEIR worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where THEIR worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

The individual's worm does NOT die, does NOT go away. This is not to be understood in a "literalist sense" where there would be an actual worm but in a literal sense. The destruction of the person is ongoing (eternal) and the worm that's personal to the person signifies this destruction isn't stopped by a "morners Kaddish". This would have been a radical thing for a Jew in Jesus' day to hear, it was not a common teaching at all. 

[8thdaypriest]

 I was writing some notes on a pad last nite, while watching an old movie.  My notes were asking what the bottom line is, in the whole Universalist argument.  

I had concluded that the bottom line is asking whether the Creator is ultimately responsible for the Fall, and therefore responsible for the restoration - of every being that has fallen into the pit.    

I'm thinking about the old Exodus law about the man who dug a pit and failed to cover it, and his neighbor's ox fell into the pit.  The man who dug the pit and failed to cover it, was held responsible for the ox.   

I was born with the carnal nature because Adam sinned.  How am I then responsible when I sin?  Is it not HIS responsibility to save me?  

I believe THIS is ultimately what the great contest between Christ and Satan.  Is the Creator responsible for sin?   Did the Creator open a "pit" when He created sentient beings with FREE WILL, who could choose to act against His will, and to separate themselves from Him?  

Was "sin" therefore inevitable - because FREE WILL beings are curious and would seek to act independently? 

It's not about who is more powerful.  Even Satan knows that God is more powerful.  

It's not about how many sins one has committed, or exactly how many he has confessed and repented of.  I don't believe our God is a scorekeeper.  

A person's "salvation" hinges on what he thinks of God.  Does he believe God is good, and fair, and just, and supremely loving, and forgiving . . . ? 

If he does, then he will open his heart to God, and God can then change him and heal him.  

If he does not, then he will continue to resent God, even if he does believe that God exists.  

Is it God's responsibility to bring every sentient created being to a full realization/understanding of His character of love.   

And IF God did this, would every created being then love Him?  

[8thdaypriest]

11 hours ago, Gustave said:

Essentially the Jews of Jesus' day taught that everyone, eventually, would be spared. Gehinnom, according to Judaism was understood to be a place of spiritual purification where the individual would eventually get out. Jesus shocked His listeners ( and departed from traditional Judaism ) when He stated it (Gehinnom) was PERMANANT. Jews to this day believe that Hell is basically a washing machine for dirty laundry (souls) and eventually everyone is cleaned up enough to get out. 

Mark 9, 43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where THEIR worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where THEIR worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where THEIR worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

The individual's worm does NOT die, does NOT go away. This is not to be understood in a "literalist sense" where there would be an actual worm but in a literal sense. The destruction of the person is ongoing (eternal) and the worm that's personal to the person signifies this destruction isn't stopped by a "morners Kaddish". This would have been a radical thing for a Jew in Jesus' day to hear, it was not a common teaching at all. 

God Himself IS "the fire" that is "not quenched".  

Hebrews 12:29 "For our God is a consuming fire. "  (Deut 4:24)

Gehinnom was a garbage dump.  It had once been the place of human sacrifice, by wicked kings of Judah.  It was cursed, according to Jeremiah the prophet.  

They did NOT throw live persons into Gehinnom.  But they did throw the bodies of DEAD executed criminals.  Jesus was saying essentially, "If you don't go with me, you will end up like that garbage over there, when the earth and the works thereof are burned up (IPeter Cpt 3).  

[8thdaypriest]

I could throw verses and verses and verses that say the wicked will be consumed or burned up.  The Universalist would reply that only the sin (in them) will be consumed, leaving the person cleansed and healed.  The Universalist dismisses all such verses.  

When I quote verses that say one must believe, to be saved - the Universalist replies that everyone WILL believe - eventually.  

Did God create this problem?   Is it therefore HIS RESPONSIBILITY to solve this problem FOR EVERYONE who has been caught up in this problem?  

This is the Universalist question.  Their answer is yes - it is HIS responsibility to "save" every created being - therefore HE WILL SAVE every created being.  

They say that God wanted free-will beings, so they could love Him.  He created free-will beings to satisfy HIS desire, therefore HE is responsible for any consequence of that creation. 

What keeps coming to my mind is Isaiah 5:3.  

"And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard. 4 What more could have been done to My vineyard That I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes?

Is this not the question that every created sentient being will need to answer - for himself?  

And does not this verse also suggest that - in spite of everything HE has done - there will still be "wild grapes" who then have to be destroyed (or at least let go of)?  

And IF God cannot "save everyone", does that mean the creation was a "bad idea".   Or was some  "loss" acceptable, to end up with a "new earth" full of happy people?   

[Gail]

I like your line of reasoning, Rachel. For me the issue is free choice and the depth of that.

While reading this thread through, a thought passed my mind: What if the wicked, after having the fire burn out all the sin, could see God without the burden of the baggage and make a better informed choice for Him?

 I guess that’s what universalists might be hoping will occur. That would be a help to humans trying to understand why God saves who He does. But it seems like an extra step for a God who knows all hearts.

[Gustave]

4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

God Himself IS "the fire" that is "not quenched".  

Hebrews 12:29 "For our God is a consuming fire. "  (Deut 4:24)

Gehinnom was a garbage dump.  It had once been the place of human sacrifice, by wicked kings of Judah.  It was cursed, according to Jeremiah the prophet.  

They did NOT throw live persons into Gehinnom.  But they did throw the bodies of DEAD executed criminals.  Jesus was saying essentially, "If you don't go with me, you will end up like that garbage over there, when the earth and the works thereof are burned up (IPeter Cpt 3).  

When Jews spoke of Gehinnom in the context of "the after-life" they weren't referencing the City Dump, Gehinnom is often times translated "Hell". If YOU end up being lost it's your worm that doesn't die ( not someone else's worm ).  I understand it's somewhat vogue these days to appeal to George Storr's / Jehovah's Witness theology pertaining to the subject of the afterlife but the concept was alien within Judaism with the exception of the Sadducees - whom Jesus went out of his way to correct. 

 

[Gustave]

2 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

I think by its very nature and purpose, "the fire" does not have the purpose of "burning out" the sin; but rather, just burning of it as in destroyed.

Is it possible that the sin that can't be forgiven is the sin where the person willfully chooses to permanently separate themselves from God? If this is the case that sin can't be destroyed, it's perpetual. I would agree however at that point the person is destroyed ( not annihilated ). 

[8thdaypriest]

13 minutes ago, Gustave said:

When Jews spoke of Gehinnom in the context of "the after-life" they weren't referencing the City Dump, Gehinnom is often times translated "Hell". If YOU end up being lost it's your worm that doesn't die ( not someone else's worm ).  I understand it's somewhat vogue these days to appeal to George Storr's / Jehovah's Witness theology pertaining to the subject of the afterlife but the concept was alien within Judaism with the exception of the Sadducees - whom Jesus went out of his way to correct. 

 

Gustave, I don't want to get side tracked into a discussion of everlasting conscious torment vs annihilation.  

[8thdaypriest]

2 hours ago, Gail said:

I like your line of reasoning, Rachel. For me the issue is free choice and the depth of that.

While reading this thread through, a thought passed my mind: What if the wicked, after having the fire burn out all the sin, could see God without the burden of the baggage and make a better informed choice for Him?

 I guess that’s what universalists might be hoping will occur. That would be a help to humans trying to understand why God saves who He does. But it seems like an extra step for a God who knows all hearts.

If God says, "What more could I have done,"  then who are we to say HE must do more, until every last created sentient being is brought to love and salvation???  

I believe the all-powerful Creator has limited Himself.  He WILL NOT violate the human mind/will.   He will not use mind manipulation.   THAT is where He has drawn a line - for Himself.

Everything else - short of that - He HAS DONE.   He has used "tough love" allowing human beings to experience the consequences of their choices.  He has rescued them.   He has taught them.  He has revealed Himself to them.   He sent His Son to become a human and then die by torture  (a sacrifice beyond our full comprehension).  

Israel and what happened to Israel, is a MODEL - a TYPE, for what God has done for the whole world, and how God will deal with the whole world.  

Just looking at that MODEL,  almost all of those who left Egypt (who had been slaves) DIED IN THE WILDERNESS.   They resisted the Holy Spirit, forgot all the miracles, and were "broken off" because of unbelief.   They could not deny that God existed.   They just doubted that He would defeat their enemies and give them the land HE had promised.  

I believe this is the BOTTOM LINE argument.  Universalists keep saying "He is responsible" therefore "He must do more" until HE has saved everyone.  

I say there IS NO MORE that He can do, without violating man's free will.

In the MODEL:  When divine "fire" consumed Nadab and Abihu - it killed them.  It didn't "cleanse them" so they now behaved righteously.

When divine "fire" consumed the 250 princes - same thing.  

I don't buy the argument that the fire is just "cleansing".  It cleanses "the camp" - Yes.   But it cleanses the camp by consuming "the chaff", AFTER the wheat is harvested.  

[Gustave]

4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Gustave, I don't want to get side tracked into a discussion of everlasting conscious torment vs annihilation.  

No problem, I was basically agreeing with Wanderer - that in Hell the sin ISN'T burnt out of the individual - (my belief follows = because the individual determined that fate for themselves).

[Gregory Matthews]

Gustave,  In that short sentence you seem to have expressed a SDA belief, at least as far as that sentence goes.

 

[Gustave]

11 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Gustave,  In that short sentence you seem to have expressed a SDA belief, at least as far as that sentence goes.

 

Hell is a condition, a state that's unable to be mitigated against - it's a persons intentional separation away from God. From the posts it appeared that some SDA's (and all Universalists) were under the impression that the Jews of Jesus' time and today were correct - that everyone eventually gets out of Hell. I'm saying that once you're there you are there, forever. 

[Gregory Matthews]

My comment about you was focused on your statement that the individual determines their individual fate, to include their intentional separation from God.  [NOTE:  On a personal basis, I find it  very interesting that you have made this statement.  I would not have expected such.  Perhaps I should check my Catholic Catechism.]  In other aspects, you and traditional SDAs likely have major differences.

Traditional SDAs do not believe that Hell is a place where God keeps people alive in order to eternally torture them.

Rather, traditional SDAs believe in hell as being the grave, place of the dead,  where the dead are not conscious.

SDAs, like me, believe that those eternally lost are lost because God has accepted their decision to eternally separate from God.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

For those of you who wonder what I might have as a source of Catholic doctrine, I will list below, the  book that I have.  It is not an easy book to use, probably as it was primarily intended for the use of Catholic Bishops.  Frankly, I find my book of Canon Law  easier to use.  However, I am gaining in increasing understanding as to how to use this book.  In some ways, it is logically arranged  which gives some ease in use.

 

Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2nd Edition.  English Translation, 1997, United States Catholic Conference, [Glossary & Index Analyticus, copyright 2000] 904 pages.

Imprimi Potst, Cardinal Ratzinger.

[8thdaypriest]

There's a study on prophecyviewpoint.com titled "Hell - What It's Not".

https://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/14-Hell.htm

In that study, I look at every verse where a word from Hebrew or Greek was translated as "Hell".  

sheol (Strongs #07585): 
    A Hebrew word meaning “the grave” or “the abode of the dead.”      
    Rendered: “grave” - 31 times, “pit” - 3 times, and “hell” - 31 times.  

      There are other verses where “sheol” is simply translated as “grave.”   Jacob went to “sheol” (Gen 37:35, 42:38, 44:29, 31).   One assumes he did not go to “Hell,” as understood by the Greeks - a place of punishment and torment.  Job longed to hide in it (Job 14:13).  David saw it as a “resting place” but wanted to be rescued from it (Psa. 16:9-10).

The righteous, the wicked and the ignorant - all went to “sheol.”  They wait there - for resurrection.  “Sheol” is a place of waiting. 

When "sheol" from the Hebrew, was translated to "Hades" by the 70 rabbis who prepared the Septuagint, the word took on the Greek meaning - from Greek mythology - a place of punishment, at least for awhile.   

This is where the Catholic Church got the idea of Purgatory.   That one could pay for their sins for awhile, and then go on to Heaven.   Sort of an early release program.   And the living could induce God to move a person out of Purgatory,  and on to Heaven, with large offerings  made to the church.   Purgatory is also where unbaptized infants go.  

[8thdaypriest]

I find a finality in Revelation 22:11. 

 "He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still." 

The one thing I would qualify is the ignorant.  Those who have sinned ignorantly, are covered by the blood of Christ (symbolized by the sin offering and the daily sacrifice), until such time that they "see" their sin.  Then they must confess and repent (with the help of Christ).   

A whopping lot of people have sinned in ignorance over the 6000 years of this age.  That is why I believe "the rest of the dead" will be those who lived and died in ignorance (because of age or disability or circumstances).  They must be resurrected to then HEAR the Law, the Gospel, to confess their sin, and to repent.  Short of this, they really have no opportunity to come to Christ.   And I do NOT believe the LORD will simply give them a FREE PASS into His Kingdom, without belief, faith, confession, or repentance.   That would require mind manipulation to make sure they do not make bad choices.  

[8thdaypriest]

The arguments for "Universal Restoration" as they call it, boil down to 

1.  Will God ever violate FREE WILL?   Is FREE WILL sacrosanct with God?

2.  Is the "fire" cleansing or destroying?  

Obviously those "thrown in" to the Lake of Fire,  don't go there willingly.  That sounds like manipulation - to me.  

The righteous "walk through the fire" and are "not burned".   Like Daniel's three friends.   That "fire" was not divine fire - I know, but it is a TYPE.  

I believe that God IS the "fire", and HE consumes what HE does not indwell.  

[JoeMo]

On 9/15/2018 at 10:09 PM, The Wanderer said:

where is the scripture that says we need to be concerned about "the rebellious angels?"

See Hebrews 9:1-11.  I believe that the "locusts" coming out of the pit are those fallen angels who were imprisoned at the time of the flood.  Jesus said that the end would be like the days of Noah.  Fallen angels and their offspring - the Nephilim - were on the earth at that time.  They will be released from the abyss at the 5th trumpet.

The fifth trumpet is also the first Woe.  If there is a rapture, I hope it happens prior to the 5th trumpet.

[JoeMo]

The scripture passage below is often used by Universalists to prove their point.  I've never come up with a good rebuttal,  Have any of you?

 "By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.  If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,  their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.  If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.  If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames."  (1Cor.3:10-15)

[JoeMo]

28 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

The Bible does not speak in prophecy about some sort of special resurrection for people to have a second chance like this

Yes it does.  Those people are called "the rest of the dead" in Rev. 20:5.  And it won't be their second chance.  These are the people who never even heard about Christ, were taught a very twisted image of Christ, or were too young or retarded to make an informed choice; so it will be their first chance. Just my opinion.