A couple questions on God's plan of salvation

[Kevin H]

23 hours ago, JoeMo said:

No we wouldn't.  I'm sure there were angels on the fence - maybe even leaning towards satan's side until they saw satan's true plan - to overtake God and destroy humanity.  Once they saw the enormous consequences of the evil they were doing, some of them repented and were forgiven.  Some did not.

Anyways, I'm just proposing certain scenarios here; throwing them against the wall to see if they stick.  I don't necessarily believe everything I'm throwing out here - just trying to see what others think.

 

Legalism is deeply ingrained in our thinking. Your post here is a very good post, but still is tainted with the deep legalism that is ingrained in our thinking. We subconsciously believe that while those who sin or in the above quote, close to sin, are saved by righteousness by faith, people have a tendency to feel that those who have not sinned are saved by their perfect works and thus don't need redemption nor righteousness by faith. We tend to feel that if Adam and Eve did not sin that their works would have saved them. But eternal life is ALL and ONLY Jesus. Whether it be for you and me, or for Gabriel.  When you and I cast our crowns at Jesus feet and sing "Worthy is the lamb" and other praises to Jesus, Gabriel is not going to stand wearing his crown and singing "Worthy am I". And while deep inside we know this, we still hold on to the mindset that anyone who did not sin are saved by their won works and without thinking about it we tend to initially react to surprise to the idea that Jesus also died for the unfallen. 

[JoeMo]

23 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Leaving their assigned positions - positions assigned by the Father in the spirit realm - to tempt human beings to rebellion in the earthly sphere - against the LORD's commands.   Makes me think the LORD must have warned them, they would not be able to return, if they went down that road. 

So again, why are certain fallen angels held in the abyss while satan is free to roam the earth, seeking out those he can destroy?  Is it because they crossed a boundary that even satan dare not cross? Certainly the Lord warned satan as well.

[JoeMo]

10 minutes ago, Kevin H said:

we still hold on to the mindset that anyone who did not sin are saved by their won works and without thinking about it we tend to initially react to surprise to the idea that Jesus also died for the unfallen. 

I agree that Jesus died to save all of creation.  The flaw of anyone thinking that they did not (or don't continue to) sin eliminates their need for a savior is purely delusional.  Speaking for humans, all have sinned and fallen short of the mark; and we're likely to continue sinning until we are changed.  So anyone who thinks they don't need a savior will be mighty surprised at the Judgement.

[8thdaypriest]

23 hours ago, JoeMo said:

That's not what Jude and Peter say:

"And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day." (Jude 1:6)  Could that "proper dwelling" have been heaven and their spiritual bodies?

"By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." (2 Peter 3:19-20) Why in the days of Noah? Because humans and angels were having babies. Something God could not allow.

This leads straight into the Trinity question, asking whether the Holy Spirit is a third divine being.

CJB  1 Peter 3:18 For the Messiah himself died for sins, once and for all, a righteous person on behalf of unrighteous people, so that he might bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but brought to life by the Spirit; 19 and in this form he went and made a proclamation to the imprisoned spirits, 20 to those who were disobedient long ago, in the days of Noach, when God waited patiently during the building of the ark, in which a few people- to be specific, eight- were delivered by means of water. (CJB)

1.  God the FATHER resurrected His Son from death. 

        Galatians 1:1 “Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead)”

        Jesus did not raise Himself from death.  The Father resurrected His Son.  (See also Acts 3:15, Acts 13:30, Acts 17:31, Rom. 4:24, Rom. 6:4, Rom. 8:11, Rom. 10:9, Eph. 1:20, 1Thess.    1:10, 1Pet. 1:3). 

2.  Before the Son of God incarnated to become a man, He existed as Spirit.   He "preached" through OT prophets, inspiring them.  He was exactly like His Father, who is also Spirit. 

1 Peter 1:11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. (NKJ)

Peter is consistent - that the Son of God was spirit, and became human, and was made spirit once again (when He was glorified).  The "Spirit of Christ" was not a third separate divine being.  This was Christ Himself - as Spirit - WHO was "in" the OT prophets, and speaking through them.

3.  The "spirits in prison" were those controlled by Satan, in bondage to his lies.  The Spirit of Christ preached to them - back in the days of Noah, before the flood.  He preached THROUGH Noah.

4.  I can agree that Jesus has been "made a life giving Spirit" (1Cor 15:45). 

QUESTION

5.  If - as you say - these "spirits in prison" were the evil angels who crossed the line - imprisoned in everlasting chains, just waiting for judgment, what would be the point of preaching to them?  They were not going to be "saved".   Or is this just a proclamation to say, "I won!".  

 

[8thdaypriest]

1 hour ago, Kevin H said:

Legalism is deeply ingrained in our thinking. Your post here is a very good post, but still is tainted with the deep legalism that is ingrained in our thinking. We subconsciously believe that while those who sin or in the above quote, close to sin, are saved by righteousness by faith, people have a tendency to feel that those who have not sinned are saved by their perfect works and thus don't need redemption nor righteousness by faith. We tend to feel that if Adam and Eve did not sin that their works would have saved them. But eternal life is ALL and ONLY Jesus. Whether it be for you and me, or for Gabriel.  When you and I cast our crowns at Jesus feet and sing "Worthy is the lamb" and other praises to Jesus, Gabriel is not going to stand wearing his crown and singing "Worthy am I". And while deep inside we know this, we still hold on to the mindset that anyone who did not sin are saved by their won works and without thinking about it we tend to initially react to surprise to the idea that Jesus also died for the unfallen. 

Every created being must understand the Creator's love - spirit beings as well as human beings.  

As created beings, angels as well as men would be tempted to feel disposable, or manipulated, without freedom, or free will.  The Creator is so powerful.  No created being could resist Him - unless allowed to resist.  

All the stupidity and outright EVIL that has been perpetrated,  in both the heavenly and the earthly realms, has demonstrated the freedom of created beings, to think and act as they choose.   All this freedom resulted in a stupendous, painful MESS. 

The Father offered healing and a way back to wholeness and perfect health.  He sent His Son with that message. 

Only when God's Son (not created) incarnated to live as a man, and consented to die by torture - seemingly rejected by His Father (Whom they knew loved His Son immeasurably), in order to show His love for created beings,   could spirit beings of the heavenly realm fully realize how much they also - were loved.  It is the love of God that pulls us, and holds us, and heals us - not any threat of punishment.   It is the love of God that "saves" us. 

Some still feel this would mean giving up their freedom.  But who wants freedom - in a pig pen?  Apparently Satan does.  He would rather die, than surrender.   Satan's LIE is that God is selfish - not totally loving.   THIS is how he deceived angels.  THIS is how he deceives men.

[8thdaypriest]

On 11/14/2018 at 11:36 AM, JoeMo said:

That's not what Jude and Peter say:

"And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day." (Jude 1:6)  Could that "proper dwelling" have been heaven and their spiritual bodies?

"By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." (2 Peter 3:19-20) Why in the days of Noah? Because humans and angels were having babies. Something God could not allow.

What does this have to do with MY salvation, and YOURS?   Does this somehow cast doubt upon God's justice?  Does it give me an excuse for sin?  -  "It's my evil genes." 

Is it something I need to know - for the coming time of trouble, or the deceptions of the last days?  

I know the First Book of Enoch is a popular fad recently.   It goes along with all the stories of super-human villains and heroes.  THEY are messing up the world.  Not humans. 

Just asking . . .

[8thdaypriest]

1 hour ago, JoeMo said:

So again, why are certain fallen angels held in the abyss while satan is free to roam the earth, seeking out those he can destroy?  Is it because they crossed a boundary that even satan dare not cross? Certainly the Lord warned satan as well.

Spirit beings are more powerful than human beings.   God may have told the fallen spirit beings NOT to manipulate human minds - at least not until the humans knowingly rejected God  (eg the story of King Saul).   NOTE:  It seems that demons take away free will - not the Creator. 

In the story of the demon possessed man, who was set free by Jesus, the demons begged Jesus not to send them to "the pit"(abyss).   The demons had taken over that man's mind.  Those demons seemed to believe they had "crossed a line" ?   We do not know what led to the man being possessed. 

I have wondered about the madness of King Nebuchadnezzar.   The NT certainly supports the reality of spirit beings manipulating or taking over human minds.  Without a severe penalty applied against fallen spirit beings who cross this line, human beings would be extremely vulnerable.  

Tempting human beings,  putting thoughts into their minds - is one thing.   Completely taking over human minds - is something else. 

[8thdaypriest]

16 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

I dont get how this could possible be connected to "the Trinity question" whatever that might happen to be; and which, btw, no one is asking. At least not in this scripture psaage. Certainly, this is NOT speaking about Substance of Deity; it is only speaking about ROLES:

1Pe 3:18  For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19  By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (KJV)

It was by way of the Spirit's help that Jesus did this. It really IS that simple. If anyone is interested; I have a detailed study on this kind of idea : God: The Holy Spirit, Part Two

Wander - you just made my point.   We disagree concerning just who "the Spirit" is.  This is why we understand this passage differently. 

You believe the passage describes ROLES - THREE divine beings, each with a different ROLE.

I believe the passage describes the ACTIONS, of TWO divine spirit beings - the Father and His Son.

We can agree to disagree. 

I have detailed studies also: 

https://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/44a-Part 1 TR-Intro.htm

https://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/47j-TR-Part8-Father and Son-NT Review.htm

https://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/47m-HS-TheHolySpirit-ANTReview.htm

 

[Lone Ranger]

2 hours ago, Kevin H said:

Legalism is deeply ingrained in our thinking. Your post here is a very good post, but still is tainted with the deep legalism that is ingrained in our thinking. We subconsciously believe that while those who sin or in the above quote, close to sin, are saved by righteousness by faith, people have a tendency to feel that those who have not sinned are saved by their perfect works and thus don't need redemption nor righteousness by faith. We tend to feel that if Adam and Eve did not sin that their works would have saved them. But eternal life is ALL and ONLY Jesus. Whether it be for you and me, or for Gabriel.  When you and I cast our crowns at Jesus feet and sing "Worthy is the lamb" and other praises to Jesus, Gabriel is not going to stand wearing his crown and singing "Worthy am I". And while deep inside we know this, we still hold on to the mindset that anyone who did not sin are saved by their won works and without thinking about it we tend to initially react to surprise to the idea that Jesus also died for the unfallen. 

What absolute cra….BS. If you haven't fallen, you don't need redemption. It's that simple, works or no works.  By his own words, Jesus did NOT die for the unfallen: Luke 5:23 "I have not come to save the righteous, but sinners…"   You should read Scripture more...just sayin'.

Scripture says very little about angels, and nothing about their salvific state. Therefore any comments about such are pure (wild) speculation. They are quite obviously in a different class and category than humans; therefore "Human theology" cannot apply to angels.

[8thdaypriest]

5 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

My point in the above post was NOT to "prove" Three, Two, or One Divine being. THAT is not what I am trying to prove. I was trying to demonstrate that IN CONTEXT, this passage is NOT addressing or hinting at Divine Substance at all. The text being cited is lifted out of context when we try to make it support a preferred doctrine on Substance. I only see a role of whatever one thinks this Spirit is in 1 Pet 3:18

It's OK Wanderer.  We can agree to disagree. 

[8thdaypriest]

7 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

If, as you say, "its not a salvational matter," then why even bring it up here anyway? This topic is "a few questions about salvation," not an apologetic platform . It actually doesnt matter a hill of beans what people think of this text in 1 Pet 3:18 as it is unlikely to affect their salvation anyways, for the simple reason its only one text, and left on its own to "prove" some preferred doctrine, it fast becomes taken quite out of the author's intended context.

Will start another thread to discuss "essential beliefs" for salvation.  This question already came up in another thread.  Which teachings are "essential"?  Which are "supportive"?

[8thdaypriest]

1 minute ago, The Wanderer said:

I am just saying that the text in 1 Pet has nothing to do with Jesus' Substance; except to dilinate His ROLE in HIS resurrected form, but the text does NOT cross the line in trying to "prove" Three, Two, or even One. Its just saying what Jesus did when He was resurrected.

You already said that. 

[8thdaypriest]

17 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

Oh dear, was that "wrong?"

lol  ??

[JoeMo]

7 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

If - as you say - these "spirits in prison" were the evil angels who crossed the line - imprisoned in everlasting chains, just waiting for judgment, what would be the point of preaching to them?  They were not going to be "saved".   Or is this just a proclamation to say, "I won!".  

Just my opinion, but I would say the latter.  But I would guess He said it differently - like "you lost.  You have no more hope of ever running the world."  To inform them that their doom is sealed, so to speak.  Not that they had any reason to hold out any hope; being imprisoned in the abyss.

[JoeMo]

6 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

What does this have to do with MY salvation, and YOURS?   Does this somehow cast doubt upon God's justice?  Does it give me an excuse for sin?  -  "It's my evil genes." 

Nothing really - no more than the believing in your 8th Day study is necessary for my salvation (which I do accept incidentally).  Both my Nephilim theory and your eighth day theory fall in the category of "good to know" to me.  Even the Trinity (or not) falls into that category to me.

Your theoretical "evil gene" ( Iprefer to call it a "sinner gene" is your tendency toward sin.  Most of the time, Holy Spirit control of frontal cortex is able to control one's tendency towards sin, but sometimes we don't listen.  There are some people who never listen and follow their flesh wherever it takes them - to their destruction.

Like I said before, I'm not trying to start a new religion here, just throwing out ideas - mostly to get us to start talking about something besides national and church politics.

[JoeMo]

5 hours ago, Lone Ranger said:

Luke 5:23 "I have not come to save the righteous, but sinners…" 

I don't think this has anything to do with angelic salvation; just humans.  The bible also says:

"There is no one righteous, not even one;  there is no one who understands;  there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,  not even one.” (Romans 3:12 Psalms 14:1-3; 53:1-3; Eccles. 7:20)

So, if there is no one righteous, then Jesus came to save everyone! ?

[Lone Ranger]

1 hour ago, JoeMo said:

I don't think this has anything to do with angelic salvation; just humans.  The bible also says:

"There is no one righteous, not even one;  there is no one who understands;  there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,  not even one.” (Romans 3:12 Psalms 14:1-3; 53:1-3; Eccles. 7:20)

So, if there is no one righteous, then Jesus came to save everyone! ?

I agree that Jesus came to save everyone, but, IMO, this does not include angels. "Angels" are not included in the collective pronoun "everyone."

[Lone Ranger]

18 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

I dont know why this would be true; I always thought the opposite. The ministry of angels is referred to quite a bit in Scripture; and it is actually a very encouraging point of study.

True. But the MINISTRY of angels is not the point under discussion. Rather, the question involves whether or not Jesus' redemption extends to angels, about which Scripture says nothing, TMK.

[Kevin H]

1 minute ago, Lone Ranger said:

True. But the MINISTRY of angels is not the point under discussion. Rather, the question involves whether or not Jesus' redemption extends to angels, about which Scripture says nothing, TMK.

It does not go into detail, and we live in a different culture with different thought patterns so that we don't notice it when we get to it, but there are phrases and comments here and there that indicates something happening with the angels.  What we Seventh-day Adventists call "The Great Controversy" was a major part of the thoughts of ancient people. The Bible makes corrections to the corrupted versions that were among other people, and yes we find Mrs. White putting what the ancient world believed and what the Bible touches on into modern western thought.

Phrases such as the Hebrew "Without form and void" for example, when compared to other uses of those words in documents found in the ancient world gives an indication that there was something going on here. We are not told details about that part of earth's history, but it indicates that for what ever life was from was doing something here, and that what ever they were doing here just ended up into total chaos (the darkness and the water).  Also, we read the book of Job different from how the ancient world would have read it. To the ancient world the "satan" was not a name but basically the prosecuting attorney, who's job is to make sure all the facts are given. The big part for them is at the end when Yahweh speaks out of the whirlwind. Mrs. White was able to summarize this message by saying that God could have dealt with Satan and evil as easily as throwing a pebble to the ground, if all he needed was power and force. But in dealing with behemoth (who is a symbol of God working with - our beast in Revelation 13) and the Leviathan (the ancient world's understanding of the Devil and the demons -- our dragon in Revelation 13).  So it is there, but not in detail and we are so far away from the Biblical world that we miss what is there.

[Lone Ranger]

9 minutes ago, Kevin H said:

It does not go into detail, and we live in a different culture with different thought patterns so that we don't notice it when we get to it, but there are phrases and comments here and there that indicates something happening with the angels.  What we Seventh-day Adventists call "The Great Controversy" was a major part of the thoughts of ancient people. The Bible makes corrections to the corrupted versions that were among other people, and yes we find Mrs. White putting what the ancient world believed and what the Bible touches on into modern western thought.

Phrases such as the Hebrew "Without form and void" for example, when compared to other uses of those words in documents found in the ancient world gives an indication that there was something going on here. We are not told details about that part of earth's history, but it indicates that for what ever life was from was doing something here, and that what ever they were doing here just ended up into total chaos (the darkness and the water).  Also, we read the book of Job different from how the ancient world would have read it. To the ancient world the "satan" was not a name but basically the prosecuting attorney, who's job is to make sure all the facts are given. The big part for them is at the end when Yahweh speaks out of the whirlwind. Mrs. White was able to summarize this message by saying that God could have dealt with Satan and evil as easily as throwing a pebble to the ground, if all he needed was power and force. But in dealing with behemoth (who is a symbol of God working with - our beast in Revelation 13) and the Leviathan (the ancient world's understanding of the Devil and the demons -- our dragon in Revelation 13).  So it is there, but not in detail and we are so far away from the Biblical world that we miss what is there.

None of which sheds any meaningful light on the question of the relationship between Jesus, the angels, and their salvation, if any.

[JoeMo]

23 minutes ago, Lone Ranger said:

None of which sheds any meaningful light on the question of the relationship between Jesus, the angels, and their salvation, if any.

Call me selfish; but I am much more concerned about humanity's salvation (especially my own) than that of a class of beings that I can barely wrap my head around (angels). Angelic salvation is between God and angels.

[Kevin H]

1 hour ago, The Wanderer said:

May I ask please what IS your question re the angels & Jesus and salvation? Please accept my apology if you have stated it, and I missed it.

I believe he's asking about my comment that Jesus' death redeems all creatures, including those who have never sinned, and Lone Ranger asked how could beings that had never sinned need Jesus to die for them. I pointed out that all of us, sinners and non-sinners still need to be won into the life giving relationship with God through the righteousness of Christ. Lone Ranger then pointed out that he thought the Bible was silent on the topic. I pointed out that while the Bible does not say much on the topic, that it does say some, but says in a way that the people living in the Bible's day would understand, however we in modern western thought tend to read over the verses and not catching the message. We closed by agreeing that the Bible does not focus on this but focuses on human salvation. 

[8thdaypriest]

15 hours ago, Lone Ranger said:

I agree that Jesus came to save everyone, but, IMO, this does not include angels. "Angels" are not included in the collective pronoun "everyone."

I believe that God the Father sent His Son to "save" human beings, and to SECURE His entire universal kingdom (which includes spirit beings).  The created spirit beings did NOT fully UNDERSTAND the ugliness and awfulness of rebellion against the Creator.  For the entire created universe to be SECURE forever, they needed to understand how a tiny seed of rebellion, could grow to destroy the entire creation.  

The created spirit beings had to have questions.  Most chose to remain loyal to the Creator - but they did have questions.   Those questions had to be answered, in order to SECURE God's creation for eternity. 

Whether you call that "saving" some spirit beings, or simply securing their loyalty  -  either way - Christ died to demonstrate God's love - for EVERY CREATED BEING, not just His love for humans.    

[Lone Ranger]

3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I believe that God the Father sent His Son to "save" human beings, and to SECURE His entire universal kingdom (which includes spirit beings).  The created spirit beings did NOT fully UNDERSTAND the ugliness and awfulness of rebellion against the Creator.  For the entire created universe to be SECURE forever, they needed to understand how a tiny seed of rebellion, could grow to destroy the entire creation.  

The created spirit beings had to have questions.  Most chose to remain loyal to the Creator - but they did have questions.   Those questions had to be answered, in order to SECURE God's creation for eternity. 

Whether you call that "saving" some spirit beings, or simply securing their loyalty  -  either way - Christ died to demonstrate God's love - for EVERY CREATED BEING, not just His love for humans.    

With all due respect...

The above sentiment is pure EGW* and begs the question: "How stupid are these spirit beings?" Seriously, it's been 7-10 THOUSAND YEARS (that we know of, perhaps more) and they still don't understand?

Something is wrong here. I can barely think for all the BS alarms going off in my head.

No disrespect intended.

* which for me is a problem

[Lone Ranger]

14 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

I am guessing BS means Barely Sane.

It should be noted that 8th day is NOT an Adventist and frequently requests that NO EGW be used in topics she has started. It is my understanding that this forum does allow widely divergent view points to be expressed. The only lines drawn are the usual ones, such as no abuse, name-calling, nothing illegal, racist and all those good things that we have grown to count on here.

Or words to that effect...

If I recall correctly, 8th WAS an Adventist and left. I think I read that on her website. It is ABSOLUTLY possible that I am mistaken and confusing her with someone else. I'm sure she will correct me if such is the case.

I have nothing against EGW; quote her all you like. I may even quote her myself.  Just don't expect that I will take her with the same degree of authority someone else might. And if 8th was SDA, this (meaning her post) may be one of those little scraps of theology one has never challenged. I know I have bags and bags of them.