The Little Horn--More

[JoeMo]

16 hours ago, TrevorL said:

The little horn of Daniel 7 is different to the little horn of Daniel 8.

Why would you say that?  When Daniel was written, there were no chapters and verses - the book was a continuous narrative.  With that in mind, the little horn should be the same power if the book is to be taken in context. Could it be that the little horn represents a power that is both a powerful theocracy AND an intimidating military presence?

[TrevorL]

Greetings again JoeMo,

1 hour ago, JoeMo said:

Why would you say that?  When Daniel was written, there were no chapters and verses - the book was a continuous narrative.  With that in mind, the little horn should be the same power if the book is to be taken in context. Could it be that the little horn represents a power that is both a powerful theocracy AND an intimidating military presence?

Daniel 7 and Daniel 8 are two different visions given at two different times, and the context of Daniel 8 is the Medo-Persians and the Grecians.  The context of the little horn of Daniel 7 is the fourth beast, the Roman. The chapter division is not necessary to assess this distinction.

 

The items that The Wanderer gave are like a number of jig-saw pieces, and most probably each of us will join different pieces together in different positions to make up our perspective of the final picture. The little horn of Daniel 7 arises out of one of the ten horns of the fourth beast, and I understand these ten horns to be the subdivisions of the Roman Empire. The little horn of Daniel 8 arises out of one of the four subdivisions of the Grecian Empire. I understand that this development represents the rise of the Roman Empire in the east to take over the role of the King of the North. The Roman power took over the Grecian firstly through being gifted the Pergamon territory, and then gradually other regions in Asia Minor. This speaks of the Eastern wing of the Roman Empire and is depicted in Daniel 8 and Daniel 11 in mainly a military role. The little horn of Daniel 7 is later and represents the rise of the Papacy and was more the Western wing of the Roman Empire.

 

Btw I am still interested in whether The Wanderer endorses the usual view that I mentioned, of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome and that the little horn of Daniel 7 is the Papacy as presented by Isaac Newton and Uriah Smith. I imagine that this is the view usually held by SDAs, and it was the view presented in the first session of a SDA seminar series titled The Prophetic Code that I attended a few years ago. The presenter spoke mainly on Daniel 2 and 7 and I could look for my notes that I took on the occasion. I also attended an earlier seminar series and the second session was on Daniel 2. I also completed the correspondence course on The Prophetic Code. I could consult both of the notes issued with these, but they presented the four empires.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[JoeMo]

As I have stated in other threads, I am a futurist;  therefore I don't think the prophecies in Daniel or Revelation have been fulfilled yet.  For example, Dan. 7:11-12 says - speaking of the little horn and the 4th beast:

“Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. 12 (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.)"

I don't see historically where Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece  went on after the destruction of Rome (either physical or spiritual Rome)

Also, Daniel states several times in Chapter 8 and 12 that the vision is for the latter days or the distant future (See Dan. 8:18, 19, 26,a dn 12:9 and 13, for example).  IMHO, "far into the future" or "the latter days" didn't begin  more than 1,500 years ago.  Most certainly, the historical and preterist views are good application of these prophecies and "models" for end time events, but I don't think they are the ultimate fulfillment of these prophecies.  I don't see them as fulfilling all of the details of these prophecies.  If they don't fulfill everything that is prophesied, the prophecies are not fulfilled.  I could be wrong.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again JoeMo,

3 hours ago, JoeMo said:

As I have stated in other threads, I am a futurist;  therefore I don't think the prophecies in Daniel or Revelation have been fulfilled yet.  For example, Dan. 7:11-12 says - speaking of the little horn and the 4th beast:

“Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. 12 (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.)"

I don't see historically where Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece  went on after the destruction of Rome (either physical or spiritual Rome)

My only suggestion here is that the main territory or headquarters of Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece were different to Rome. Rome is considered more to be Western Europe, Greece is distinct and partly Eastern Europe, and Babylon is more Iraq, and Medo-Persia is Iran. Now I do not believe that this fits in with SDA theology, as they believe that the whole population of the earth will be destroyed for the 1000 years. But I believe that this is teaching that although these countries will be part of the invasion of the Holy Land depicted in Ezekiel 38, Daniel 11:40-45, Zechariah 14, that it will mainly be Western Europe headed up by the Papacy that will not submit to the rule of Christ after Armageddon. The other nations after these judgements will submit and the visions of Isaiah 2:1-4 and Zechariah 14 are fulfilled in these nations coming to Jerusalem to worship when Jesus sits upon the throne of David in Jerusalem for the 1000 years.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[JoeMo]

5 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

May I ask how you are connecting Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece with "the beast" mentioned in Dan 7:11-12?  Do you see these Kingdoms as part of the great image Daniel saw & interpreted for the King in Daniel 2? I am trying to figure how you made the jump from those kingdoms of Dan 2 to being the "beasts" here in Dan 7?

I do connect them with the statue in Daniel 2 and the rams/goats in Daniel 8.  I understand why you would ask this question, though.  Daniel 7 doesn't identify any kingdoms.

 

5 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

What I am wondering is do you have a way to decide/know that this "end time" period is upon us? If so, how do you see it reflected in scripture? (and where do you get that 1500 years from?)

I don't know specifically what "signs" to look for; but - as an ardent student os scripture and as guided by the Spirit, I pray I will know the signs when they appear.  We may not be sure the end of time is upon us until we see the awesome supernatural signs predicted in eschatology.

The 1500 years (more like 2300 years) comes from the traditional SDA interpretation of the 2300 days, 1260 days etc. which started when the Jews returned to Israel from the Babylonian exile and allegedly ended in 1798 (or 1844).

I'm not saying I'm right or wrong; I'm just stating my opinions here.  I can't "prove" anything I'm saying here; I don't "know" the future.

[stinsonmarri]

On 1/8/2019 at 5:50 PM, JoeMo said:

The 1500 years (more like 2300 years) comes from the traditional SDA interpretation of the 2300 days, 1260 days etc. which started when the Jews returned to Israel from the Babylonian exile and allegedly ended in 1798 (or 1844).

I'm not saying I'm right or wrong; I'm just stating my opinions here.  I can't "prove" anything I'm saying here; I don't "know" the future.

 

Joe: Again you are holding on to everything is future; instead of futurist, preterist, and historicist. YAHWEH WAYS are not our ways nor is HIS THOUGHTS. A day is like a thousand years to THE ALMIGHTY ONES! This is not traditional SDA, interpretation. This is something, I truly disagree with you based on time. I will go back and say today as I am writing to you is the present, and tomorrow it will be the Sabbath. But when the Sabbath comes it is no longer tomorrow because tomorrow is always the next day. Tomorrow never comes! Yesterday was Thursday and it is the past. Time for the eastern coast is different from the central, midwest, and western coast. Albert Einstein theory of relativity has to do with the gravitational potential and heights. In other words, the farther the clock is from the source of gravitation, the faster time passes. Now I am not a great mathematician but as a historian, I understand time a little. 

Now scientist, want us to believe that the earth is older then is. We know that the earth has a crust, once man went out into space. The crust shows, that the entire earth was covered with water. YAHWEH original calendar is found in Gen 1:14 and it uses both the moon and the sun. Today we use only a solar calendar and our time is not correct. The Naval base uses a lunar-solar calendar like the Hebrews of the Bible. They keep up with the moon phases and Abib in Ex 13:4 is so important to time. I am saying this because of Gabriel not SDA, who gave the exact time of the end. It has to do with YAHWEH'S original calendar of time. That's is before the flood, when there were 30 days in a month or each moon cycle. We are off time because YAHWEH gave the month of Abib, to keep up with time. It had to do with the barley crop been ripe in Jerusalem. The Karites kept up with this time and with Gen 8:22. That's when we were given the various seasons, not before the flood.

You then have to accept futurist, preterist, and historicist in order to understand that the 2300 days prophecy was correct. The end of time begins in 1798 and the proof is knowledge did increase and that's where history comes in. From that time on man inventions moved at a specific pace. Within 163 years men invented the train, telegraph machine guns, armor tanks, submarines, cars, planes, phones television, atomic, and nuclear bombs, atomic ships, broke the speed of light, computers, and traveling out in space. I know I miss a lot and all before 200 years, Joe. Europeans living in America has only been here a few years, just over 400 years. Half that time knowledge has increased with rapid speed!

The end of time began in 1798 and the time of the end began in 9/11. Islam did what no one ever did to the United States of America. It took out, with a most generous plan, the twin towers. As intelligent and sophisticated this country had become, right under our noses, they did this. Now, Russia has used our own internet system against us and mess for the first time in our election. Yet, we are not defeated, even though all of the things that are happening now, including the closing of the government. Any other country would have collapsed with what is happening with our government. What makes us so different? The Bible and how this country will assist the beast! What's happening now should wake all of up! We are on the cuff of YAHWEH'S Appointed Time. We are still debating past time when the future time is upon us! The Time of Trouble is about to begin, now here is the great shocker, SDA is now putting everything off to the future. Wrong! They think SDA Denomination will finish the gospel. Wrong! They think the whole church is the remnant! Wrong! It is the seed that will finish the work along with those in Dan 12:2. Time waits on no one, haven't you heard. I urge you all get your house in order because time is running out and where will you stand when it does!

Blessings!

Blessings!

[stinsonmarri]

14 minutes ago, stinsonmarri said:

The 1500 years (more like 2300 years) comes from the traditional SDA interpretation of the 2300 days, 1260 days etc. which started when the Jews returned to Israel from the Babylonian exile and allegedly ended in 1798 (or 1844).

I'm not saying I'm right or wrong; I'm just stating my opinions here.  I can't "prove" anything I'm saying here; I don't "know" the future.

I tried to edited because I left out something. So here it is edited.

Joe: Again you are holding on to everything is future; instead of futurist, preterist, and historicist. YAHWEH WAYS are not our ways nor is HIS THOUGHTS. A day is like a thousand years to THE ALMIGHTY ONES! This is not traditional SDA, interpretation. This is something, I truly disagree with you based on time. I will go back and say today as I am writing to you is the present, and tomorrow it will be the Sabbath. But when the Sabbath comes it is no longer tomorrow because tomorrow is always the next day. Tomorrow never comes! Yesterday was Thursday and it is the past. Time for the eastern coast is different from the central, midwest, and western coast. Albert Einstein theory of relativity has to do with the gravitational potential and heights. In other words, the farther the clock is from the source of gravitation, the faster time passes. Now I am not a great mathematician but as a historian, I understand time a little. 

Now scientist, want us to believe that the earth is older then is. We know that the earth has a crust, once man went out into space. The crust shows, that the entire earth was covered with water. YAHWEH original calendar is found in Gen 1:14 and it uses both the moon and the sun. Today we use only a solar calendar and our time is not correct. The Naval base uses a lunar-solar calendar like the Hebrews of the Bible. They keep up with the moon phases but not Abib in Ex 13:4, which is so important to time. I am saying this because of Gabriel not SDA, who gave the exact time of the end. It has to do with YAHWEH'S original calendar of time. That's is before the flood, when there were 30 days in a month or each moon cycle. We are off time because YAHWEH gave the month of Abib, to keep up with time. It had to do with the barley crop been ripe in Jerusalem (there is more to this). The Karites kept up with this time and with Gen 8:22. That's when we were given the various seasons, not before the flood.

You then have to accept futurist, preterist, and historicist in order to understand that the 2300 days prophecy was correct. The end of time begins in 1798 and the proof is knowledge did increase and that's where history comes in. From that time on man inventions moved at a specific pace. Within 163 years men invented the train, telegraph machine guns, armor tanks, submarines, cars, planes, phones television, atomic, and nuclear bombs, atomic ships, broke the speed of light, computers, and traveling out in space. I know I miss a lot and all before 200 years, Joe. Europeans living in America has only been here a few years over 400 years. Half that time knowledge has increased with rapid speed!

The end of time began in 1798 and the time of the end began in 9/11. Islam did what no one ever did to the United States of America. It took out, with a most generous plan, the twin towers. As intelligent and sophisticated this country had become, right under our noses, they did this. Now, Russia has used our own internet system against us and mess for the first time in our election. Yet, we are not defeated, even though all of the things that are happening now, including the closing of the government. Any other country would have collapsed with what is happening with our government. What makes us so different? The Bible and how this country will assist the beast! What's happening now should wake all of us up! We are on the cuff of the second to the last of YAHWEH'S Appointed Time (HE gave all the Appoint Times in Daniel and Revelation). We are still debating past time when the future time is upon us! The Time of Trouble is about to begin and then the one hour time, now this is the great shocker, SDA is now putting everything off to the future. Wrong! They think SDA Denomination will finish the gospel. Wrong! They think the whole church is the remnant! Wrong! It is the seed that will finish the work along with those in Dan 12:2. Time waits on no one, haven't you heard. I urge you all get your house in order because time is running out, and where will you stand when the Appointed Time of the Time of Trouble found in Daniel and the final hour of Appointed Time comes in both Daniel and Revelation!

Blessings!

[stinsonmarri]

On 1/6/2019 at 6:53 PM, The Wanderer said:

A quick preview from Scripture on "the little horn": "The Little Horn" seems to be the first of at least twelve titles given to the power commonly known, in Scripture; and by most commentators as "the Antichrist": compare Dan_11:21-30,

Wanderer: Maybe the antichrist is not the correct word that should be used at all for the little horn. The word is only mentioned four times in the Bible. It isn't mentioned at all in Daniel or Revelation! 

Antichrist means one who oppose THE MESSIAH! 1John 2:18 states that in the last time or days that you hear about opposing THE MESSIAH, and it is that time because there are many who oppose the MESSIAH. 1John 2:22 states anyone who is a liar and they don't believe in THE FATHER or THE MESSIAH opposes THE MESSIAH. 1 John 4:3 states every mind (spirit is used and brings on confusion, it should have been written mind), that does not accept that YAHSHUA came in the flesh is not of THE FATHER and opposes THE MESSIAH and they are already in the world during John's time! Finally, 2 John 1:7 states many deceivers are in the world who do not accept that YAHSHUA, THE MESSIAH came in the flesh, this is a deceiver who opposes THE MESSIAH! So the word has to with all who do not accept the truth about THE MESSIAH and THE FATHER period. Yes, Satan is the main deceiver, and he goes up against THE MOST HIGH, but he knows that YAHSHUA came in the flesh! But Satan is a liar and he deceives men and he opposes THE MESSIAH. Many who call themselves saying they believe the truth, but are liars. It is how they preach about YAHSHUA they deceive people to become delusional and to believe a lie. All religions and churches oppose THE MESSIAH because many are tares! Yes, the little horn opposes THE MESSIAH, but he does much more, he tries to take away THE MESSIAH PRIESTHOOD! He claims he is both THE MESSIAH and THE FATHER and what he says is above the Bible. No other religion makes that claim that why he blaspheme against the Heavenly host, the true Heavenly Sanctuary and the work that takes place in the Sanctuary down to the Book of Life! He tries to make people that the sanctuary is still here on earth. Even the Jews have plans to rebuild the sanctuary. He feels when it is done, it will belong to him! That's why he owns Jerusalem!

On 1/6/2019 at 6:53 PM, The Wanderer said:

I think it can be seen that my above post where I posited that "there will be more than one church involved" as being "the little horn power" can be seen more clearly; what else could all these scriptures mean? It almost does not matter which ones they are for purposes of this "little horn" prophecy." It is/will be easy for us to spot as the world powers that be start to flex their muscles more during the "time of the end."

The Christians or Protestants started protesting against the papacy empire in the Middle Ages. But did they really? The only Catholic and Protestant civil war was in Ireland since Napoleon took the Vatican's states and imprisoned the pope.

The Catholic restarted the Trinity belief, Sunday worship, the T cross, Christmas, Easter, Halloween, St. Patrick, Valentine the Gregorian Calendar (mostly all countries follow it today including the Rabbinic Jews), and Communion. The nuns are married to Jesus but they are not virgin there are facts to prove the killing of babies. We all know about the priest! This Church says that they are both YAHSHUA and THE FATHER, they claim the sanctuary still exist on the earth. They have taken over the priesthood and opposes the PRIESTHOOD of THE MESSIAH in Heaven and The Heavenly Sanctuary also the Book of Life. They claim the papacy authority is over the Bible. Now the Jews are planning to rebuild the earthly sanctuary, but here is the shocker, the Catholic Church owns the land.  That's the treaty Richard Lionhearted made with Islamic Sultan! The papacy will rule in Jerusalem/Babylon. The belief system all started with Nimrod and this is why the last three empires in Daniel were a part of the fourth beast!

 Rome actually followed Greece and Persian religions and combine them together. Rome did everything like Greece, and we do everything today like ancient Greece. Ancient Greece has Hellenized the Western world from our politic to our religious and philosophical thought. Our Medicine as well, we have held on to Latin names for our prescriptions. What made the fourth beast so different is he stamp the residue which a bear, brass nails and body of a leopard is Greece, iron teeth Rome and its head was a lion which is Neo-Babylon. Both Daniel and Revelation make this claim. Daniel and John saw the beast in different periods of time! Yet, they both saw the beast burning in the Lake of Fire!

The papacy is shown to be a stout fellow, then he plucks up from the root three kingdoms. Only a church kingdom still has power today. That is the Catholic church, that is a kingdom or country (the Vatican city), within a city of another country called Italy surrounded it is called the city of Rome. It has an army of Swiss soldiers (do not be fool by this small army force). It is the only church that is a part of the United Nation and has embassies all over the world except a few Islamic Countries. There a lot of Islamic embassies that are not in most countries of the world. Some Islamic countries don't even share embassies among each other.

 Finally, I heard that a lot of people do not feel that the Catholic Empire was a persecuting empire; we need to read history especially the crusades. They persecuted other believers, not of their faith,  also the Jews, and the Muslims. They burned people a lot but no one accepts terrorist Muslims torture people today.

 Nowhere in the Bible does it state during the Time of Trouble people will be persecuted or beheaded. Let me explain a problem in translating the context structure of a sentence. Rev 20:4 translated by KJV states:

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. KJV

 Now it would have most to think that people were beheaded who did not have the mark of the beast. Now let's look at another version:

Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Berean Study Bible

 The way this is worded gives a different picture, so which version is correct? To find the answer is to see if another Scripture basically says the same thing.

And the seventh from Adam, Enoch, also prophesied to these men, saying, Behold, THE MASTER comes with ten thousands of HIS saints, to execute judgment upon all; and to convict all the wicked, because of all the deeds they have wickedly committed; and because of all the harsh words, which the unrighteous sinners have spoken. Jude 1:14, 15

Now the Bible shows clearly also in 2 Thess 4:16 that the righteous dead who are asleep will awake, along with those who are living and all taken together to Heaven. This shows that the righteous saints of all ages are judging the wicked. So the Berean Study Bible and many others are stating it like it actually means.

Blessings and happy Sabbath!

 

 

[hch]

On ‎1‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 4:46 PM, TrevorL said:

Greetings again hch,

Many claim Holy Spirit guidance, but the results from two people thus guided are contradictory. My mate that I mentioned before, came to a difficulty in his exposition of Isaiah 6, and he wrote as if praying, “what is the solution here” and then writes “thank You”, and gives an outrageous concept. I am not sure if he was relying on the Holy Spirit or prayer, but I assume he is still locked into this decisive moment.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

Hey Trevor,

It is unfortunate that you had that bad encounter with  your mate. It can impact you experiences with others. Perhaps you will hear something that is true, but different from what you have learned, and pigeon hole something that is very important into the boxes with the errors that your mate presented. The old adage is that little foxes spoil the vine. 

I awoke this morning with insights that I have shared before ringing in my head in settings that made them so clear that I wonder how to and where to present them. The bottom line is:

My favorite author said that if you want to understand the formation of the image beast you must study the beast, and wow...

[hch]

On ‎1‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 3:23 PM, phkrause said:

My belief is that Armageddon is a spiritual battle between God and his angels and Satan and his angels!! Good vs Evil. Not a literal war between people!!

Surely Armageddon is a spiritual battle, but the spiritual realm has spilled over to the realm of mortals in the past. IMHO, if we should spiritualize away the literal fulfillment of prophecy and fail to prepare ourselves and others, we will miss a blessing as did Peter when the spiritual battle between Christ and Satan climaxed on Calvary.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again hch,

 

5 hours ago, hch said:

It is unfortunate that you had that bad encounter with  your mate. It can impact you experiences with others. Perhaps you will hear something that is true, but different from what you have learned, and pigeon hole something that is very important into the boxes with the errors that your mate presented. The old adage is that little foxes spoil the vine. 

Yes it can impact how I view other suggestions. One of the reasons that you reminded me of my mate is that apart from a few other theories, and I will not disclose his larger overall view on Isaiah and another fairly large view on Nahum, he also interpreted current or recent events as fulfilment of Scripture. I will give two examples, but I hope that you or anyone else will not take this up as correct. In Zechariah 9:5 it says “the king shall perish from Gaza”, and my mate stated that this is referring to the death of Yassar Arafat and the fiery flying serpents of Isaiah’s prophecy were the scud missiles that Iraq fired at Israel. SDAs most probably do not look for events relating to today's Israel and this may seem more obscure. I hope you do not think this too negative, but I see a similar type of application to your 4 metals being 4 endtime Presidents of the US, and this seems to be obscure as my religious environment has not considered the US as having a part from Revelation 13 as per SDA belief. So comparing your view to my mates, possibly yours is a little more radical.

On ‎1‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 12:41 AM, hch said:

Lots of people have difficulty applying Daniel 2 to our time, i.e., 4 endtime American presidents. And some here have scoffed me for my biblical interpretations calling it everything but reliable. But I continue to study.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[phkrause]

I found an interesting article on the 1260 year prophecy by Nicholas Miller, in the Adventist Journey magazine.

As our friend Gregory says in many of his posts, "I believe this article has much merit to consider." (I know its not a exact quote, but closer to a paraphrase. ?)

https://www.adventistworld.org/understanding-the-1260-year-prophecy/

[stinsonmarri]

7 hours ago, hch said:

My belief is that Armageddon is a spiritual battle between God and his angels and Satan and his angels!! Good vs Evil. Not a literal war between people!!

The Bible makes it very clear about the last two battles that take place. The first one is part of the Sixth vial specifically dealing with the beast. It is before the Seventh vial that will be poured out! The war of Armageddon takes place and it is between the beast and the whore. Read Chapter 17, 18. Here is what the Bible says very clearly.

The Seven Bowls of YAHWEH THE FATHER’S Wrath

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 

For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that Great day of EL SHADDAI.  Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walks naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. Rev 16:13-16 

You cannot get any clearer because while this battle takes place, YAHSHUA is on HIS way to earth. And then the Bible states this:

The Marriage Supper of THE LAMB!

And I saw Heaven opened, and behold a white horse, and HE that sat upon him was called FAITHFUL and TRUE, and in RIGHTEOUSNESS HE doth judge and make war. HIS EYES were as a flame of fire, and on HIS HEAD were many Crowns; and HE had A NAME written, that no man knew, but HE HIMSELF. And HE was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and HIS NAME is called THE WORD of EL SHADDAI. And the armies which were in Heaven followed HIM upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of HIS MOUTH goeth a sharp sword, that with it HE should smite the nations: and HE shall rule them with a rod of iron: and HE treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of EL SHADDAI. And HE hath on HIS vesture and on HIS THIGH A NAME written, KING OF KINGS, AND SOVEREIGN OF SOVEREIGNS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of THE GREAT EL SHADDAI; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against HIM that sat on the horse, and against HIS army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. Rev 19: 11-21 

Now it is clear both wars actually happen! One of the unclean spirits of Satan and the other the Triumph victory of THE LAMB with HIS NEW! AMEN!

Blessings!

[stinsonmarri]

20 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

I am finding your views as expressed on this very confusing. That doesnt need to mean they actually are confusing; just means that I find it confusing.

First of all what is it that is "very clear" about the symbolic language and types used in the Bible passage regarding "unclean frogs?" And other related topics.

Rev 16 does not seem to me to be saying this battle re the "unclean spirits working miracles," takes place at the same time as the second coming. Can you explain how you get that from Rev 16? I am not able to figure it. Thank you in advance for your effort.

Thank you kindly for asking. Let us look at the whole Chapter; it begins with these seven vials or plagues they poured on the earth. However, the fifth angel vial with the plagues was specific on the kingdom of the beast. If the beast has a kingdom, that means all the wicked on the earth is not a part of his kingdom. We are not dealing with the righteous saints; they like Elijah are taking care of! 2 Thes Chapter 2 and Rev 11: 8; Chapter 17 and 18 must be understood. The whore is seen riding the beast. Then the angel says, he will tell you the mystery of the woman and the beast that carries her. Why does everyone want to say they are the same? The Bible gives you two separate things the woman/whore and the beast that carries her! Then the angel says, the beast goes into perdition or destruction. Do you see where it says the same thing about the woman? Now, when the beast itself comes into power at this period of Appointed Time, the 10 horns have no kingdoms or power. However, they will only one hour with the beast! They give their mind and power over to the beast. Then, they and the beast will make war with the Lamb. That takes place in Rev Chapter 19!

Not one time did you read anything about the whore only the beast! Now, Rev 17:16, the angel now says, the ten horns will hate the whore, make her naked and eat her flesh; then burned her with fire! We continue to read that it is YAHWEH'S Will for these 10 horns to give their kingdom to the beast so that the Word of YAHWEH is fulfilled. Finally, the angel tells John, who the whore has become, the great city, which ruled over the kings of the earth! Now this great city in 11:8 is also called Sodom and Egypt, but to identify who it is we know it is where YAHSHUA was killed. That means it is Jerusalem and the woman still control only this great city; while the beast has the kingdom of the 10 horns or rulers of the earth! 

Now, briefly, Chapter 18 deals with the great city and we know it is Jerusalem because of what the angel tells John. If there were one verse that proves who this city is, it would be verse 20. Why would the angel tell the apostles and prophets to rejoice? When did ancient Babylon at any time kill apostles or prophets of YAHWEH? The apostles came after Babylon was destroyed centuries ago! Go to the OT and you will found that the prophets were killed by YAHWEH'S own people in Jerusalem who rebel. Many apostles were killed by the Pharisees as well. They are the ones who turned Paul over to Rome. They did the same thing to YAHSHUA! Therefore, the Queen who fornicated with the kings of the earth will be destroyed by them. Read the Chapter it is clear. Let us make it clear, what the mark or symbol is that points to Jerusalem's fate. It is when Trump moved the embassy to Israel, which made it clear it was once YAHWEH’S holy city. It was never Islam, nor did YAHWEH accept Islam. Jerusalem has become Catholic go and see for yourself. They own and control everything! The final abomination is when the temple is rebuilt; this will oppose THE MOST HOLY in Heaven, YAHSHUA PRIESTHOOD, and our MEDIATOR and the Heavenly Sanctuary. Before judgment is bought on her, there are saints and they are giving the warning to leave. This prophecy has been fulfilled, each time she has fallen. This is the third and final time.

Those frogs and unclean spirits will take place before YAHSHUA comes. However, between the 6th and the 7th vial, HE is preparing to come. One hour is two literal months, and during the hour, which is when probation had closed. It closed once the great multitude were sealed. Once the 3 1/2 years are completed, there is no more salvation. That is when the two months begin. Appointed Time for Babylon to be destroyed (the battle of Armageddon) by the beast, the false prophet and the 10 horns or kings of the earth. The passage during the Appointed Time of Armageddon was a just reminder that quietly YAHSHUA is preparing to come like a thief. Listen, the beast is preparing to make war with THE LAMB! Satan knows and is getting his troops ready. He just has to remove the Queen or Jerusalem/Babylon. Look, Satan wants to destroy the once holy city it is his triumph. He has taken the city whose once belong to THE FATHER and HIS people. See we forget, this thing is not just an earthly fight it between Satan and THE MOST HIGH and HIS SON! Satan wants everyone to see him openly oppose everything that has to deal with worshipping THE FATHER! Yet, he too does not see that it is the Will of THE FATHER! Hate will keep you from seeing the whole truth!!!!!

I hope this helps!☺️

Blessings!

[hch]

On ‎1‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 4:56 PM, stinsonmarri said:

The Bible makes it very clear about the last two battles that take place. ...

Blessings!

For clarification the statement credited to me above to which Marri replied was not mine. I was replying to:

On ‎1‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 3:23 PM, phkrause said:

My belief is that Armageddon is a spiritual battle between God and his angels and Satan and his angels!! Good vs Evil. Not a literal war between people!!

 

[stinsonmarri]

1 hour ago, hch said:

For clarification the statement credited to me above to which Marri replied was not mine. I was replying to:

 

My apologies, I did not do that I just did the quote and your name came up. I truly don't know why because it was phkrause that I quoted from?

[hch]

3 minutes ago, stinsonmarri said:

My apologies, I did not do that I just did the quote and your name came up. I truly don't know why because it was phkrause that I quoted from?

No need to apologize. I see that happen often here. The technology must be having difficulty. But it gave me an excuse to post something.  Hope you are enjoying the blessings of the Lord.

Christian regards

[stinsonmarri]

1 minute ago, hch said:

No need to apologize. I see that happen often here. The technology must be having difficulty. But it gave me an excuse to post something.  Hope you are enjoying the blessings of the Lord.

Christian regards

Thanks but I am glad that is has been corrected. No one should be misquoted. Thanks also for the encouragement.

Blessing on you as well!

[stinsonmarri]

On 1/12/2019 at 5:57 PM, The Wanderer said:

I was under the impression that this "supper" takes place after the second coming. How do you place this kind of timing for "final events? I dont see it in the text itself??

I copy the subtitle Rev 19: 6-10 from KJV of my Esword App! However, Matt Chapter 25, YAHSHUA says, HIS Kingdom is like five wise and five foolish virgins. Notice what the angel says at the midnight cry! "Behold THE BRIDEGROOM cometh." THE BRIDEGROOM is YAHSHUA and you know the story. But look at verse 10; while the five foolish were out buying oil, THE BRIDEGROOM came. Now, something interesting is stated! Instead of just the five wise, it said they that were ready, went in with the Bridegroom to the marriage. Let me pause for a minute, many believe that the church is the Bride. I never read that anywhere in the NT, have you? What I have read are two verses, Rev 21:2, 9. Now, verse 9, one of the seven angels that had the seven vials, told John to come, he will show him the bride, THE LAMB'S wife. The angel then took John, to a high Mountain in Heaven and showed him Jerusalem. John saw it descending down from Heaven.

Let me explain, the saints are the guest to the wedding. When YAHSHUA first return, HE collects HIS guest, the saints! I going to provide these verses, which comes before YAHSHUA comes riding on a white horse.

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of THE LAMB is come and HIS wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they, which are called unto the marriage supper of THE LAMB. And he saith unto me, these are the true sayings of El Shaddai. Rev 19:7-8

When the saints go to Heaven, they become the white linen/righteous of the bride for the marriage and after the marriage is the supper. Today we call it the reception! I believe that the unfallen worlds will be at this marriage and supper! So that is why I included the subtitle from my app. I thought it fit the purpose. What do you think now?☺️

On 1/12/2019 at 5:57 PM, The Wanderer said:

This "marriage supper" doesnt sound like a "war" to me!

The angel is telling John first about the saints who will be saved. He also, clearly open up to John what YAHSHUA first told them about THE BRIDEGROOM and the marriage in Matthew. Then he shows YAHSHUA coming to take care for the last time the beast and the false prophet. The Bible says that YAHSHUA, not as THE LAMB that only for those who are saved. HE comes to the wicked as THE FAITHFUL and TRUE in RIGHTEOUSNESS, to judge and makes war. Then the beast and his armies, who are the kings of the earth! Remember Jerusalem/Babylon, the queen is already destroyed with a nuclear weapon. While the city is burning, an angel takes a milestone and cast the city into the sea. Then says with violence the great city Babylon is no more! She was judge first before the seventh angel with the vial brings the plague of hail. Also, THE VOICE from Heaven declares it is done!

The beast and his armies are preparing for war; they are not ready to battle. YAHSHUA IS! There is a supper here too for the birds. Dan 7:11, 12, shows clearly that Daniel saw the beast taken and place in the Lake of fire. Then it says the rest of the earlier beast power and dominion was taken away. Those beasts are kingdoms, the 10 kingdoms with the beast both are people. These are the ones who have the mark of the beast. They are dead from the brightness of YAHSHUA and then the birds eat their flesh. They are not completely destroyed or burned yet! That will not happen until they receive their executive judgment with Satan and his evil angels.

So to recapitulate what I am presenting, let us go over it briefly again. Let us begin with the judgment of the whore/queen her daughters who fornicated with the kings of the earth. They now are in Jerusalem/Babylon and their judgment comes first. It comes before YAHSHUA comes. There are more in other Chapters, of important events that take place, while she is burning! The beast destroys her in the battle of Armageddon. Once the other events are completed, then the angel completely destroys her and cast her into the sea. Then, the beast and the kings of the earth prepare to battle with YAHSHUA, but before he is ready, he and the false prophet are taken. They are placed in the Lake of Fire and they are destroyed and judged. Lastly, the kings of the earth flesh are eaten by the birds. They died immediately when they see YAHSHUA! Finally, they will awake, to be judged with Satan and his evil angels. Three judgments represent, THE FATHER, THE SON and THE HOLY SPIRIT who ALL work together!

I hope and pray this is clear!

Blessings!☺️

 

[stinsonmarri]

16 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Rev 21:9  And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
Rev 22:17  And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

The Bride is The Church; and The Lamb is the Bridegroom.

Wanderer: Respectfully you did not provide the next verse and this is what they both said:

And one of the seven cherubs came to me, he having the seven bowls being filled with the seven last plagues, and spoke with me, saying, Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of THE LAMB. And he carried me in spirit onto a great and high Mountain, and showed me the Great City, Holy Jerusalem, coming down out of Heaven from YAHWEH, Rev 21:9, 10 HRB

New Jerusalem is the bride and the saints are her white fine linen. I did not say this, the Bible does:

Let us rejoice and let us exult, and we will give glory to HIM, because the marriage of THE LAMB came, and HIS wife prepared herself. And it was given to her that she be clothed in fine linen, pure and bright; for the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. Rev 19:7, 8 HRB

I am sorry, but the Bible does not mention a church. The saints are the Adam's and all the faithful saints, who are the pure and bright fine linen of the bride. If you notice in Matthew, the story starts with 10 virgins. Five wise had their lamps ready with the extra oil. They were called to go out and meet HIM, THE BRIDEGROOM. But when HE came it did not say just the five went in; it said; "they." The reason this important is that the Bible cannot make mistakes. “They,” included all the dead saints from the Adam’s and those brought in by the five wise virgins during the Time of Trouble. Dan 12:1-3; Rev 7:9; 9:4

16 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

his comparison of the Church to a bride, and the typical use of the marriage tie as emblematic of the relation of Jehovah to His people, is taken over from the Old Testament (comp. Isa 54:5; Hos 2:19). The imagery continued to be used by the writers of the New Testament as peculiarly suitable to describe the relation between Christ and His Church (Eph 5:32; Rev 19:7; Rev 21:2; Rev 21:9; Mat 9:15; Mat 21:1; Mat 25:1, etc.)

1

I check each Scripture that you provided and I hope you will allow me to explain them.

There are three Hebrew words that have been translated into English as a husband. However, that is not exactly correct except one. The one with the asterisk is the correct one, and look how many times it is used.

H2860 Châthân: a relative by marriage- Total KJV occurrences: 25

*H376 'Iysh: husband, (certain, mortal) man-Total KJV occurrences:  2163

H1167 Ba'al: master, lord-Total KJV occurrences: 85

I also have to give you versions that provide the correct English context sentence applying the word.

 Isa 54:5 :

For HE that made thee shall rule over thee, the Lord of hosts is his name: and thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, shall be called the God of all the earth. DRB

YAHWEH use Hosea and his wife as an example. Hosea stood by her and help her to change. He was bind by his love and the contract with her. This is a form of YAHWEH endearment of keeping HIS Covenant.

And I will betroth thee unto ME  forever; yea, I will betroth thee unto ME in righteousness, and in judgment, and in loving-kindness, and in mercies. Hos 2:19 

Eph 5:32? 

Mat 9:15:

Jesus answered, "Do you expect the guests at a wedding party to be sad as long as the bridegroom is with them? Of course not! But the day will come when the bridegroom will be taken away from them, and then they will fast. GNB

Jesus replied, "Can wedding guests be sad while the groom is still with them? The time will come when the groom will be taken away from them. Then they will fast. GW

These were the guests that YAHSHUA was speaking of!

Mat 21:1?

Rev 19:7; Rev 21:2; Rev 21:9 is speaking about the New Jerusalem. You know we do the same thing to show an example. However; the bride is the City and the Bible made that clear.

Listen, the church had both the wheat and the tares. Whenever YAHSHUA talks about the wheat, the words used are the saints, the righteous or those found in the Book of Life. HE never used the word church, if you look up the word it will show that the word means assembly or congregation. The word church was not used in the original NT. This word was used after 1524, if you do not believe me, check it out for yourself. Now, again I am not saying that the word is sinful or anything like that. I am saying that the word was not used in YAHSHUA, Paul or John’s day! Please remember, I am just providing what it says and what it doesn't say☺️.

Blessings!

[stinsonmarri]

On 1/14/2019 at 3:05 AM, The Wanderer said:

The Bride is The Church; and The Lamb is the Bridegroom.

Wanderer: I will get back with you on this matter. 

Blessings!?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again The Wanderer,

15 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Is it enough to just know what kinds of things this "beast power" will be doing during the "time of the end?"

No, I suggest that it is important to identify the fourth beast and the little horn of Daniel 7. This fourth beast is the Roman Empire and the little horn is the Papacy. The Book of Revelation develops these. Many so-called Protestants will side with the Papacy when Christ returns.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[JoeMo]

16 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Is it enough to just know what kinds of things this "beast power" will be doing during the "time of the end?"

I think so.  While scripture doesn't specifically identify the Beasts or Harlot, it is pretty detailed about their character traits and actions.  We all can have our pet theories, but ... "By their fruits you shall know them."  I have my pet theories; but I'm pragmatic enough to realize they are just "my opinions" and not always "truth". (just most of the time).

[TrevorL]

Greetings again The Wanderer,

7 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

I should qualify the above post to state that I thought it illustrated very well just how easily one can just automatically start inserting someone's name into the texts on prophecy. It is purely to illustrate THAT point and not to throw insults at anyone. 

Possibly if we ignore history and the details of the prophecy, then we could endorse your suggestion. I suggest that many also that have considered these prophecies have helped us to understand that the fourth beast is the Roman Empire and the little horn is the Papacy, including Isaac Newton and Uriah Smith. I could list numerous other commentators.  It is as if we have many helpers to almost complete a jigsaw puzzle, but then someone comes along and says, but that piece is missing, and another piece seems out of place, and he takes the almost complete jigsaw and empties it into the box, and says, let's start again.

Kind regards Trevor

[TrevorL]

Greetings again The Wanderer,

4 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

I just see no reason at all to take your statements on this as anywhere close to being credible.

I appreciate your response. I will retain my perspective on Daniel 7 as I consider the details of the prophecy clearly fit the history that has been fulfilled. Another reason is that I have never seen a viable or credible alternative. If you want another reference, I find it interesting that Rollin in his Ancient History mentions the four metals of the Image as representing the Empires of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. A modern history book would not normally do this, but this may indicate the general understanding in his time. One of my brethren prepared an extensive paper on some of the early writers who supported the understanding of the Four Beasts as the Four Empires. A few of the 20 he lists are AD 180 Irenaeus, AD 185 Tertullian, AD 194 Clement, AD 230 Origen, AD 330 Eusebius, AD 340-420 Jerome, AD 520 Andreas of Caesarea.

 

Kind regards

Trevor