The 1844 Sanctuary Prophecy & Public Revelation

[Gustave]

William Miller's message (that Jesus was coming at a definite / specific time was false) & Miller ended up renouncing his own schema. 

Approximately 15 years after Miller's definite time Advent message failed (and after multiple other 'mechanisms' failed to provide an acceptable explanation for what happened in 1844) a farmer by the last name of Crosier had a religious experience in a corn field. This new teaching became known as the 1844 Sanctuary Prophecy. 

Here is how Ellen described it.

"I believe the Sanctuary, to be cleansed at the end of the 2300 days, is the New Jerusalem Temple, of which Christ is a minister. The Lord shew me in vision, more than one year ago, that Brother Crosier had the true light, on the cleansing of the Sanctuary, &c; and that it was his will, that Brother C. should write out the view which he gave us in the Day-Star, Extra.....". Ellen White / Word to the Little Flock 12.8

Would not the 1844 Prophecy require that Christ participated in a false religious festival / ceremony commemorating the cleansing of the Temple? 

This is why I ask about the view of Public Revelation in the SDA Church. 

 

[I just caught this now.  Hiram Edson was an associate of Crosier.  But it was Edson who is alleged to had had a vision in a corn field.  The reference of EGW was to an article that Crosier wrote.  In addition, the issue of Edson having a vision in a cornfield, is debated by SDA scholars--GM.]  

[JoeMo]

Sorry - I think the entire 1844 prophecy is wrong.  Jesus did NOT enter the Most Holy Place in 1844.  Hebrews is clear that He entered it when He ascended into heaven;.

"But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here,[a] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation.  He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption.and that we also can enter it " Heb. 9:11-12)

We can also enter the Most Holy Place (hence the curtain between the Holy Place and Most Holy Place being torn in half upon Jesus' death.)

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus,  by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water." (Heb. 10:19-22)

[Gustave]

JoeMo, I concur with you on that however it seems that the SDA Church officially believes that the 1844 Prophecy is something that needs to be promulgated to the world ( as in they view it as Public Revelation ). For those who do view it as Public Revelation how do they reconcile Jesus attending Chanukah in the Gospel? I've already had two folks say they don't believe Jesus would have validated a false religious idea by participating in the rituals of it. 

[phkrause]

31 minutes ago, Gustave said:

For those who do view it as Public Revelation how do they reconcile Jesus attending Chanukah in the Gospel?

Why wouldn't he attend? Chanukah is a celebration of something that happen to the Jewish people!!!!! It has nothing to do with anything in prophecy!!!!!

[Gustave]

9 minutes ago, phkrause said:

Why wouldn't he attend? Chanukah is a celebration of something that happen to the Jewish people!!!!! It has nothing to do with anything in prophecy!!!!!

You've made my point, Jesus would have attended because all Jews prior to Jesus' birth as well as all Jews at the time of Christ believed that Chanukah commemorated the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy where the defilement of the Little Horn would be addressed and remedied. That's the whole point of Chanukah. This is basic Judaism.

http://www.mazornet.com/holidays/Chanukah/background-AntiochusIV.htm

http://halakhaoftheday.org/2018/11/28/antiochus-epiphanes-and-the-second-miracle-of-hanukka/

https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/the-revolt-of-the-maccabees-the-true-story-behind-hanukkah-1.5343197

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-maccabean-revolt/

 

 

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Gustave,

4 hours ago, Gustave said:

William Miller's message (that Jesus was coming at a definite / specific time was false) & Miller ended up renouncing his own schema. 

I suggest that the 2300 years applies to the period from the overthrow of the Persian military power by Alexander in BC 334-333 to the recapture of Jerusalem in AD 1967 by the Jews.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[Gustave]

Just now, TrevorL said:

Greetings Gustave,

I suggest that the 2300 years applies to the period from the overthrow of the Persian military power by Alexander in BC 334-333 to the recapture of Jerusalem in Ad 1967 by the Jews.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

Perhaps it does, I certainly not an expert in that area by any means. I just know that Jew's attribute the celebration of the Festival of Lights as the fulfillment of Daniels Prophecy. 

[JoeMo]

42 minutes ago, Gustave said:

Perhaps it does, I certainly not an expert in that area by any means. I just know that Jew's attribute the celebration of the Festival of Lights as the fulfillment of Daniels Prophecy. 

Unfortunately, it was not the fulfillment of Daniels's prophecy.  Jesus Himself referred to it as a future event while He was here on earth. See Matt. 24:15.

[Gustave]

2 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Unfortunately, it was not the fulfillment of Daniels's prophecy.  Jesus Himself referred to it as a future event while He was here on earth. See Matt. 24:15.

Part 2 Jomo.

What Temple so you understand the abomination of desolation to be eventually standing in?

[JoeMo]

10 minutes ago, Gustave said:

What Temple so you understand the abomination of desolation to be eventually standing in?

A third Temple - yet to be built on the Temple Mount.  Just an opinion.  Extensive preparations have already been made to build it.  Google "third temple" or "temple movement"  or "temple institute" for more info.

[B/W Photodude]

2 hours ago, TrevorL said:

I suggest that the 2300 years applies to the period from the overthrow of the Persian military power by Alexander in BC 334-333 to the recapture of Jerusalem in AD 1967 by the Jews.

Some go by the principle of let the Bible interpret itself and then you don't have to suggest anything. The Scripture give a start date for the 2300 year prophecy as the "going forth of the decree" to rebuild Jerusalem in 457bc.

[B/W Photodude]

6 hours ago, Gustave said:

William Miller's message (that Jesus was coming at a definite / specific time was false) & Miller ended up renouncing his own schema. 

Approximately 15 years after Miller's definite time Advent message failed (and after multiple other 'mechanisms' failed to provide an acceptable explanation for what happened in 1844) a farmer by the last name of Crosier had a religious experience in a corn field. This new teaching became known as the 1844 Sanctuary Prophecy. 

William Miller did not "renounce his own schema." The only reference to such a thing I can find is on Adventist hater websites. He also was not one to set specific times. One source said he accepted the 10/22 date, but it originated with someone else. While many were out on a rock at his home waiting for the Second Coming, William Miller was not. He remained in his home because he had decided that a second coming was not the meaning of the prophecy.

Many things in doctrine had to be worked out in the early days of the church which required intensive study of Scripture by many students of the Bible. So, while they had the approximate time for the 2300 figured out, the significance of the prophecy still eluded them. The early pioneers of the SDA church also had to work out the Sabbath, diet, and even the three members of the Godhead. This going back to the drawing board, IMHO, was nothing new. This was a work of all the reformers after more than a thousand years of the population being unable to read Scripture and the false doctrines of the Roman church.

As far as the "1844 Sanctuary Prophecy," nothing I have ever heard of. There is the cleansing of the sanctuary beliefs. The fact is, no Christian church in the world understands the meaning of the Sanctuary like the Seventh-day Adventists. Well, some of them anyway! I just happen to be of the opinion as I study the Sanctuary message that the desert sanctuary was like one physical parable of the whole plan of salvation. I also tend to believe that God does not waste symbols. They are there for a reason and have meaning. But then Jesus did say, "he that hath ears, let him hear." Others will have closed eyes and ears and will not understand.

Mr Crosier is a sad story as it is said that even though the understanding of the Investigative Judgement came to him first, he eventually left the SDA church. Several figures of significant importance to understanding the Bible and the formation of Adventist thought left the church in the early decades. So, no matter how clearly one understands Scripture, that one is liable to fall. Guess that is why Paul wrote, "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." 1 Cor 10:12

[phkrause]

4 hours ago, Gustave said:

You've made my point, Jesus would have attended because all Jews prior to Jesus' birth as well as all Jews at the time of Christ believed that Chanukah commemorated the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy where the defilement of the Little Horn would be addressed and remedied. That's the whole point of Chanukah. This is basic Judaism. 

That's not the desolation Jesus was talking about! He was talking about what happen in about 70 AD!!

[Gustave]

12 minutes ago, phkrause said:

That's not the desolation Jesus was talking about! He was talking about what happen in about 70 AD!!

Ok, I agree that Jesus was  talking about the destruction of the temple that would happen in AD 70.

So, what was Jesus celebrating at the Feast of the dedication?

 

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings B/W Photodude,

10 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

Some go by the principle of let the Bible interpret itself and then you don't have to suggest anything. The Scripture give a start date for the 2300 year prophecy as the "going forth of the decree" to rebuild Jerusalem in 457bc.

Yes I agree, that we need to allow scripture to interpret itself, but you are quoting from Daniel 9:25 and this is the starting point for the 70 Weeks Prophecy. Many claim that it must also be the start of the 2300 days, but this is not directly stated. The principal vision of Daniel 8 is the overthrow of the Persian Ram by the Grecian Goat. The question asked is about the down-treading of the Holy Place and the people:

Daniel 8:13-14 (KJV): 13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.  

Now the period from BC457 to BC334 was a period of restoration of the sanctuary and worship in Jerusalem under the hand of the Persians. It was not trodden down during this period. But after the conquest of Judah and Jerusalem by the Greeks, the way was opened for an antagonistic power, and this power was not always tolerant to the Jews and their religion, The Greeks were replaced by the Roman power and these were not always tolerant. So the down-treading period commenced in BC334-33 and 2300 years later the Jews recaptured Jerusalem in AD 1967.

 

Jesus alludes to and quotes Daniel 8:13-14 in the following:

Luke 21:21,24 (KJV): 21 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[Gregory Matthews]

Gustave said in the quote below:

To clarify, William Miller never predicted a specific day for the return of Christ.   Rather he predicted two (2) different time periods, each of one year.  In the first, he predicted that Christ would return sometime during a time period beginning in March of 1843 and ending in March of 1844.  Shortly after, he revised his prediction to suggest a time period beginning  in October 1843 and ending on October 22, 1844.

As Gustave has stated, Miller's message was false.  Miller was wrong.

Quote

William Miller's message (that Jesus was coming at a definite / specific time was false) & Miller ended up renouncing his own schema.

[Gregory Matthews]

To introduce a possible side issue here, in popular  SDA myth,   Hiram Edson is considered to have been given a vision of the Sanctuary, which served as a basis, for the SDA doctrine, while he was in a cornfield.

This has been debated by scholars and is generally considered now to be without substantiation.  For an examination of this story see:

http://www.truthorfables.com/Edson's final version with appendices corrected.pdf

The bottom line is:  There are issues related to the beginning of the SDA denomination that are subject to debate.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

The "Shut Door" beliefs of early SDAs is also an issue related to this thread, in  part due to some of the beliefs of O.R. L Crosier, whom Gustave cites.

For more information on this  "Shut Door" belief, see:

https://whiteestate.org/legacy/issues-shutdoor-html/

It is true, that over time, EGW did change some of her beliefs.  It is true that God often did not correct beleifs thatt EGW had.  They were often corrected by Bible study, which is as it should be.

O. R. L. Crosier wrote extensively as to his beliefs on a number of subjects.  Gustave has correctly cited a statemetn that EGW made about Crosier.    Personally, I do not believe that her statement can be construed to say that Crosier was correct in all that he wrote on the subject.  I am not suggesting that such was Gustave's main point.

On a point of personal interest, in one of Crosier's articles I find him citing 1st Maccabees as an authority source.  As a Protestant I do not find that work to be canonical, however it is quite accurate historically.  By the way, I am not saying that Catholics consider it to be canonical.

 

 

 

 

[B/W Photodude]

1 hour ago, Gregory Matthews said:

As Gustave has stated, Miller's message was false.  Miller was wrong.

20 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

The bottom line is:  There are issues related to the beginning of the SDA denomination that are subject to debate.

There are those who say to forget everything you ever knew about this topic or that in the SDA church. Why not the 1844 message? Why even continue with the SDA church when there are so many "learned" skeptics ready to discredit any belief we ever had?! I recall that  many of the things these men said were confirmed by vision to EGW, but then she is not a real prophet either.

[Gregory Matthews]

The context of my statement about Miller was related to the setting of a date for the 2nd Advent.  It relates to nothing else.  Your citation to what I said is misleading in that it takes it out of context and therefore could be understood to suggest that I said that Miller was wrong about other issues.

You have also taken me out of context in your second quote.  My context was whether or not Edson had a vision in a cornfield.  It was not related to the doctrine.  although it may be proper to debate what was actually believed in the early days of the denomination.  If you truly believe that whether or not Edson received a vision in a cornfield, is vital to the  existence of the SDA denomination, you  clearly do not understand what is vital to this denomination.   There is not core doctrine of the SDA church that is related to whether or not Edson was in a cornfield at  a time when he is alleged to have received a vision. 

 

[B/W Photodude]

11 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

The context of my statement about Miller was related to the setting of a date for the 2nd Advent.  It relates to nothing else. 

You have also taken me out of context in your second quote.  My context was whether or not Edson had a vision in a cornfield.

Apologies for any misunderstandings. I have never heard that Edison had a vision, but that he reached some understanding while out on a walk. It seems that a number of early pioneers had these moments when out walking. You might even refer to it as an epiphany moment :

Quote

 

What is an epiphany moment?

Today "epiphany" carries a range of meanings, including "an intuitive grasp of reality," "an illuminating discovery, realization, disclosure, or insight," or simply "a revealing scene or moment." My definition of an epiphany is "a moment of sudden or great revelation that usually changes you in some way."

 

I tend to believe that every student of Scripture will have these moments in their developing understanding of what is written provided it remains consistant with what is written.

[Gregory Matthews]

O.K.  You never herd that Edson has a vision in a cornfield:  That was taught for many years.  In actual fact, there is a well known painting that depicts him having that vision surrounded by stalks of corn.

Another well known myth:  The one of EGW, holding a Bible above her head, while she traced the verses with a finger.  The evidence is lacking to substantiate that story.  That also has a painting to support it.

It does not mean that such stories did not happen.   It simply means that the story lacks supporting evidence.

Such stories can be a subject of debate and such will not affect core SDA doctrines as SDA doctrine should be based upon the Bible and not some unfounded story.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

As to the Little Horn:

*  Substantial numbers of Protestants have believed that the Little Horn of Daniel references Antiochus (IV)  Epiphanes

* That view has generally been rejected by SDAs, although some are beginning to reconsider such.

*  Chanukah (aka Hanukkah) is a celebration of the victory of the Maccabees over Antiochus.

*  I have looked on the Internet, in Jewish writings, and I have not been able to find reference as to who the Jews considered the Little Horn of Danial to be.   Perhaps It is just that I have not yet found such a belief to the idea that the Little Horn was Antiochus Epiphanes.  I would be interested in any available source material for the idea that Jewish thought considered Antiochus Epiphanes to be the Little Horn.

 *  Regardless, I have no problem with Christ celebrating a victory over Antiochus, without attributing him to the Little Horn.

[Gregory Matthews]

That site is not the source of  my original belief.

I listed it because I believe that it has a good account of the Edson story and the website id available to all.

The bottom line is that the Edison story of a vision in a cornfield lacks documentation.  Perhaps it is true.  But, it can not  be substantiated.

 

[Gustave]

On ‎12‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 5:37 PM, B/W Photodude said:

William Miller did not "renounce his own schema." The only reference to such a thing I can find is on Adventist hater websites. He also was not one to set specific times. One source said he accepted the 10/22 date, but it originated with someone else. While many were out on a rock at his home waiting for the Second Coming, William Miller was not. He remained in his home because he had decided that a second coming was not the meaning of the prophecy.

Many things in doctrine had to be worked out in the early days of the church which required intensive study of Scripture by many students of the Bible. So, while they had the approximate time for the 2300 figured out, the significance of the prophecy still eluded them. The early pioneers of the SDA church also had to work out the Sabbath, diet, and even the three members of the Godhead. This going back to the drawing board, IMHO, was nothing new. This was a work of all the reformers after more than a thousand years of the population being unable to read Scripture and the false doctrines of the Roman church.

As far as the "1844 Sanctuary Prophecy," nothing I have ever heard of. There is the cleansing of the sanctuary beliefs. The fact is, no Christian church in the world understands the meaning of the Sanctuary like the Seventh-day Adventists. Well, some of them anyway! I just happen to be of the opinion as I study the Sanctuary message that the desert sanctuary was like one physical parable of the whole plan of salvation. I also tend to believe that God does not waste symbols. They are there for a reason and have meaning. But then Jesus did say, "he that hath ears, let him hear." Others will have closed eyes and ears and will not understand.

Mr Crosier is a sad story as it is said that even though the understanding of the Investigative Judgement came to him first, he eventually left the SDA church. Several figures of significant importance to understanding the Bible and the formation of Adventist thought left the church in the early decades. So, no matter how clearly one understands Scripture, that one is liable to fall. Guess that is why Paul wrote, "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." 1 Cor 10:12

Perhaps you should spend less time on Adventist hater websites and more on sites like these.

"For we were certainly disappointed. We expected the personal coming of Christ at that time; and now to contend that we were not mistaken, is dishonest. We should never be ashamed to frankly confess all our errors".

&

"I have no confidence in any of the new theories that have grown out of that movement, viz., that Christ then came as the Bridegroom, that the door of mercy was closed, that there is no salvation for sinners, that the seventh trumpet then sounded, or that it was a fulfilment of prophecy in any sense. The spirit of fanaticism which has resulted from it, in some places, leading to extravagance and excess, I regard as of the same nature as those which retarded the reformation in Germany; and the same as have been connected with every religious movement since the first advent. The truth is not responsible for such devices of Satan to destroy it. I have never taught a neglect of any of the duties of life, which make us good parents, children, neighbors or citizens. I have ever inculcated a faithful performance of all those duties, enjoining good works with faith and repentance. Those who have taught the neglect of these, instead of acting with me or being my followers, as they are called, have departed from my counsels and acted in opposition to my uniform teachings: men have crept in unawares, who have given heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils, teaching lies in hypocrisy, denying any personal existence of Christ, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from certain kinds of food, denying the right to pray for sinners, and commanding to violate our social duties, etc. With such things, I have no sympathy".

https://m.egwwritings.org/en/book/1427.131

&

"It need not be replied that it was convened to deliberate respecting, and if possible to extricate ourselves from the anarchy and confusion of BABYLON in which we had so unexpectedly found ourselves." William Miller / https://m.egwwritings.org/en/book/1009.2127

 

You're telling me you've never heard of the 1844 Sanctuary Prophecy! You seriously don't expect me or anyone reading this to take that statement seriously, do you?